I'll take a full size 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP, or 357 Mag over any 380 pocket pistol any day plus Sunday.
...and that's pineboards. There's all manner of different mediums to shoot through. Try it sometime.
OK, if this was the old West and everyone open carried, sure a full size pistol would trump a gun designed for CC. But reality dictates, a smaller weapon is more likely to be carried...
Pineboards > drywall. I think this is the point. And I thought he said 3/4" pineboard as well.
Fresno, the water jugs were calibrated against ballistic gell. Roughly 2 to 1. So it's a valid test medium, figure half as dense as gell or simply if a bullet goes through two feet of water jugs it's one foot of gell.
I guess for a very rough estimate, it will work. But the obvious difference is the gel captures the round typically where as the water doesn't. Do they count the water jug that only has an entrance hole? that's a rhetorical question, of course.
OK, if this was the old West and everyone open carried, sure a full size pistol would trump a gun designed for CC. But reality dictates, a smaller weapon is more likely to be carried...
Pineboards > drywall. I think this is the point. And I thought he said 3/4" pineboard as well. Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message
Fresnobuell
Anything you CC is a CCW. Sure their are EASIER guns to carry, but if you're willing to lug it around why not? My full size guns are actually easy to conceal with the right gear. They're just not as comfortable. I refuse to be a mousegun carrier. As I believe Clint Smith says, guns are meant to be comforting not comfortable.
Again, anything effective as a load goes through building materials. Unless it's M955, it's no different than a proper buck, slug, or hollowpoint.
In shoot houses made of logs and tires, pistol rounds were imbedded much farther than anything else. Of course it was FMJ, but it's counter to everything you hear folks say about penetration.
I'd be famous if I could shoot .454 that tight and "fast". I can shoot .45acp that tight and fast. But not hand cannons. Sorry if I made you think I meant that I shot that fast. I have been working on getting back to what I used to carry. I am closer with a 1991A1 compact. I used to carry a 1911 Officer's light weight in .45acp. Both are fairly easy to conceal.
Skinny folk in business suits can hide a N-frame S&W. Fat folk in Bermuda shorts and t shirt. ....... not so much.
And it is important to notice the "tells". Fishing vest? Probably packing. Fanny pack? Seriously? Obvious tac pants?
I'm wide and tend to knit shirts & logos on t shirts, so front pocket carry in khakis in a holster is my normal way. In winter it's easier, but again I'm in NY so if someone sees a gun it means hours of hassle. Maybe charges, lawyers, then months of spendy work to get the gun returned.
Pretty much the only way I carry a full sized 1911 is under a kilt. Yes, I wear briefs if packing a gun. Otherwise you flash when you draw. Otoh no one expects a guy with a kilt to have a gun.
Anything you CC is a CCW. Sure their are EASIER guns to carry, but if you're willing to lug it around why not? My full size guns are actually easy to conceal with the right gear. They're just not as comfortable. I refuse to be a mousegun carrier. As I believe Clint Smith says, guns are meant to be comforting not comfortable.
Well, you are probably the exception then. Most people don't carry full size guns, so for most people "mouseguns" will have to do the trick when called upon. Americans are known (and often ridiculed) for their "bigger is better" attitude and guns are no different apparently.
quote:
In shoot houses made of logs and tires, pistol rounds were imbedded much farther than anything else. Of course it was FMJ, but it's counter to everything you hear folks say about penetration.
What is the theory behind a high velocity round penetrating less? Is it supposed to break up because of the amount of energy? It does seem like a bullet traveling 2-3 times the speed of a pistol round would penetrate deeper.
I'm actually using 69gr OTM in my own, but yes, unless it's a solid core armor piercing round the low mass/high velocity results in rapid energy transfer. There are always exceptions. Some types of ammo can be inconsistent depending on rifling twist, barrel length (I.E. velocity), and yaw angle.
There are pistol caliber hollowpoints that still work effectively through intermediate barriers, but there's a reason why pistol caliber carbines are effectively obsoleted.
The buckshot illustrated there is of the "low recoil" type. The full power ~1600 FPS stuff penetrates more.
The "just use a shotgun" sentiment is mostly nonsense. It has its place, but the limitations are many and obvious.
On the big guns thing, it's all about method of carry. I'm in FL where the ability to dress up for carry is very limited. I'm a small framed, skinny man and manage just fine. No machismo involved, I just have some effective and well thought out options beyond a pocket auto. What's the point of having a bunch if guns if you don't take them with you?
If whoever I'm shooting can keep coming at me after I put even a single round in the center mass... then I've got a big problem that warrants further evaluation.
then I've got a big problem that warrants further evaluation.
Or shots.
@Rick....I like that diagram, but after all it's still just a diagram. WOuld you happen to have any links to video of actual testing to prove the information? I mean, I just watched a video of a guy shooting thru drywall with pistols, then the guy breaks out a high power rifle and shoots thru 12 3/4"-sheets of pineboard with the round still going. I wish he would have shot a pistol or two at the pineboard for comparison sake.
Fresno, yes water jugs are an approximation, but close enough for non government work.
Read "the Buick o truth" pages too. Car doors don't stop much unless it hits the window mechanism. .. Most important is that sloped wind shields deflected bullets down from in front of the car and up when shot through from inside.
Sure, there are more scientific methods than "shooting stuff is fun" but real world testing has weird variables and it is hard to beat a picture.
In the past, when we didn't have bullets that reliably expanded, a .45 was much more dependable than smaller rounds. Still is. But 9mm is more than adequate. .380 ACP just doesn't have the energy to pass FBI barrier testing. ... but if you need to shoot people in cars you've got bigger problems, and you really want .50 Beowulf out of a rifle for that anyway.
Or WW2 U.S. Navy riot loads. 3 12ga. Balls. ( which is what my Father carried the length of N. Korea )
I haven't kept up with this thread. It's taken some interesting turns.
Looking up the load data, it's interesting. Trying to stay close to 110 grains, and sticking with Bullseye powder as the common denominator (because it smells best when you shoot it), you see:
.380: 3.1 grains of Bullseye for 100 grain plated bullet 9mm: 3.9 grains of Bullseye for a 110 grain plated bullet .38: 4.6 grains of Bullseye for a 110 grain plated bullet
So less powder for the .380, and you can safely crank the .38 *way* hotter than that. But the .38 probably isn't going to do much better in a snubnose because of the short barrel, you can keep adding powder but you are just making more smoke and flame.
It's very difficult to compare those rounds that way. The case volume of each round is very different. The difference between the .380 and the .38 are pretty drastic. Looking at the SAAMI pressure specs, the .380 has a Maximum Average Pressure of 215 vs. the only 170 for the .38 vs. 350 for the 9mm. The volume behind the slug makes a huge difference in how it accelerates down the pipe!
I watched a lot of YouTube videos from ShootingTheBull410 comparing 9mm rounds in a 3 inch barrel gun. Very informative and helpful in choosing ammo. If you are shooting 9mm out of a 3 inch barrel. The data doesn't necessarily translate well to a full size gun. I think he also did a series on .380 ammo. I'm pretty sure he has continued testing more rounds and planned on expanding into different calibers.
On the whole .223 penetration of building materials, we had a discussion about that quite a while back. I was planning on doing some testing, which I did. I was hoping to find some rounds that would consistently tumble quickly after going through an exterior wall. I built a pair of walls spaced about 15 feet apart. Tried about 8 different rounds that I could get my hands on, including military FMJ, hollow points, poly tip, soft point, and some very expensive specialized home defense ammo. I also shot a few 9mm rounds through that set up. Bottom line was that every single bullet I shot left a clean hole exiting the second wall. None showed signs of tumbling or fragmenting. I had no way to measure the energy left in the bullets at that point though. I'm still unsure about .223 vs. 9mm for home defense in my suburban setting. I plan to be in the country next year, and .223 will very likely become my home defense weapon of choice.
I have some funny penetration info to share. When I had just got my .44 Llama "minimax", I had also retired an old computer. My friends chose to show the computer some .45 ball at the range.
Drives were removed but other than that, it was complete. The .45 rounds went through the sheetmetal case like a hot knife through butter both sides, sometimes internal structures too. BUT where it hit the motherboard, the bullets stopped right there. The back side of the case was a shadow of where the motherboard was.
I guess the fiber reinforced epoxy acted enough like kevlar and spread out the force.
I love that box-O-truth site. I read the hell out of it. I particularly liked the buick-O-truth
Perhaps it would help a car survive if it was plastered with motherboards like fish scales
For those who say the .380 will not pass the FBI test, you may want to watch the videos. ...especially on the Precision One ammo.
Sifo did some real world testing which contradicts the idea the high velocity rounds are fragmenting like the diagrams indicate, so this is another data point to the contrary.
Sifo did some real world testing which contradicts the idea the high velocity rounds are fragmenting like the diagrams indicate, so this is another data point to the contrary.
Are we talking about fragmenting when going through building materials or flesh and flesh substitutes? The diagrams are showing flesh substitutes (after going through a couple of panels of drywall). Bullet design will greatly alter the fragmentation too. The M855 in the diagram is a round that is chosen to meet Geneva Convention specs. That wouldn't be my choice for defense or hunting. A bullet that expands, is usually designed to maintain it's mass. There is no simple answer.
In 5.56 a Hornady V-max ( a varmint bullet ) almost explodes at close range in ballistic gell. As designed it dumps it's energy very quickly so to get clean kills on big rats. It may not reach the vital organs on a deer at all, thus is a bad choice for home defense. No idea what happens through walls, but it doesn't matter.
The new ELD-X is designed for deer sized game and has an interlock jacket to retain mass and penetration even at very short range, & a large heat resistant plastic tip to ensure expansion even at 800 yards. Again, no idea on how it does on walls, but through is my bet.
Again. Ball ammo is not suitable for defense unless you are forced to use it by law.
My standard 5.56 ammo is Black Hills 62 grain OTM. remanufactured. If I was using a rifle for defense, Hornady TAP. But I don't feel short changed with the OTM.
Posted on Wednesday, December 30, 2015 - 08:12 pm:
A little memory of "concealed carry".
Middle of nowhere western New York.
I was with 3 friends in a diner, seated at the counter, after a SCA event, in garb, ( we didn't want the feast at the event ) when a Deputy walked in, looked at the 4 of us dressed "funny", and asked if we were armed.
I was wearing a great kilt ( not a utili-kilt ) pointed down, said "boot knife" ( Sgian-dubh } to my right & said "belt knife" and was about to mention "something else" when the friend next to me ( 14th century hose & jacket ) said "Dagger on belt, Sword in locked car".
Then the Lady with us, ( Embroidered vest, bodice, peasant skirt ) steps away from the counter, magically produces a blade in her left hand, at eye level, twirls it, sets it gently down on the counter, point towards her. Right hand, same, Left, another, another, another, each with a twirl for misdirection, and blades just appearing in her hands. Six knives down, various handles & blade styles. Wood, stag, bone, straight, wavy, then she pauses, ostentatiously reaches into her cleavage ( she's 5'4" 100 pounds soaking wet ) and pulls out a jewel handled dagger. twirl, clunk. she then pulls a Japanese battle fan from the only visible scabbard at her waist, flicks her wrist, and it opens with a very loud POP! of black silk ( and wood chisel sharp case hardened steel ) fans herself, fluttering her lashes, coquettishly, tilts her head, and raises an eyebrow.
The Deputy is more than a bit flustered at this point, looks at her husband ( floor length brocade late Viking tunic ) who mutters "excuse me" fumbles in his pouch, and proudly displays an antique Case folder...... the size of his little finger.
It was quiet enough in the diner at that point to hear the whispered "Safest restaurant on the planet" and "Safest women in the Country" from other patrons.
We then proceeded to explain we were in a Historical education group and just wanted a burger, and didn't mean to be a problem.
Needless to say, no one offered any liberties to my buddies wife.
So anyone had cycling issues with Snap caps? Specifically for Sig P238 (.380 auto) or otherwise?
I bought the Triton Snap caps and they worked fine for a few days but they started to jam after a while. Upon a recommendation here, I bought the A-Zoom version and they jammed from the get go.
No problems cycling thru real ammo and the gun performed flawlessly at the range. I did clean it, but AFAIK it's all back together just fine.
I did some quick google research and the opinion is that because it's a compact gun , cycling a full round as opposed to a spend casing is causing a jam. IF this is case, then why don't the live unspent rounds jam during cycling?
I thought I was having issues with snapcaps in my kimber 380 but now I think it's the magazine. I ran a few hundred rounds through it at the range a few weekends ago, paying attention to which magazine I was using, and only had feed issues when using one specific magazine. Then I ran several magazines worth of snapcaps through and had the same issue with the same magazine. No feed issues using good magazine with snapcaps.
Live ammo appears to be ok in the same mag that the snap caps don't work. I have been cycling with full rounds of live ammo and it appears to be fine. Only the snap caps have an issue. Two different brands no less.
It's a great gun, and shoots almost as smooth as my 5" 45. The magazines have proven a bit problematic. Early on the top round had trouble feeding. That cleared up with use, but I then found that slapping a magazine in hard on slide lock can cause the magazine to try to jettison two rounds at a time. Other than that it's been flawless and shoots well given I do my part.
I've gotta shoot it side by side with the 45 and see how they compare. I'm a bit better with the 45. Being bigger, heavier, and having a longer sight radius surely helps.
The ammunition used above hits a bit left. Everything else has been more centered.
The other annoyance was a large competition style manual safety. I cut it down to something more appropriate. 20160105_132744(0) by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr
The mainspring housing had an integral lock as well. The housing and guts got replaced.
