| Author | Message | ||
     Zane |
Just got back from a gun shop run with my son. I checked out the Springfield DX 3.3. Both my son and I liked it a lot. I found it a little heavy but not objectionably. What I didn't like was the DX Mod2. It seemed well made but just didn't fit my hand right. I wished I liked it as much as I liked the DXs 3.3. Next I checked out the M&P Shield. Again, I could have lust in my heart for this one. Smaller, lighter and really well made. I need one of these. But it was the same situation. When we move to the next one size up, the M&P9. Again, to my feeling it wasn't nearly as well balanced and just wasn't right for me. The Ruger LC9 is another great gun and for a small handgun,it's an absolute winner. The next size up is the Ruger SR9. Again the larger gun didn't feel right in my hand. So I went back and re-fondled the Glocks. They didn't have a G30S but they did have a G30SF and that has the same frame. It was perfect for my hand. Then I tried the G26 again. It felt really good. Not as perfect as the 30 but really good. Then down to the G43. It melted down into my hand and was exactly the way a gun should feel. I guess it's gonna be some Glocks... That said, I really liked some of those guns. Especially the M&P Shield. I think down the road I need one of those too. was | ||
| M1combat |
Make sure you check the trigger on any of those guns. Maybe it's just that I'm now spoiled by a Kimber but I can't handle the trigger on most modern semi's. The last one I thought was OK was the H&K USP... The Glock trigger is "HORRIBLE" though. The XD was at least smooth, crisp and not too heavy... but about 6.3 miles long. | ||
| Zane |
Yeah. My local gun range charges $20 for unlimited gun rental while you're on their range. If I buy a gun from them they don't change for the range time. | ||
| Oddball |
rick_a, That VP9 doesn't look so good after Military Arms Channel on Youtube gave it a torture test. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOu5ZGfgtVk Admittedly outside the conditions endured for concealed carry. | ||
| Rick_a |
If it can deal with some lint I'm GTG. So far it's my favorite. I've gotta try a TP9SA with the larger backstrap before I count it out. I'm normally not a budget gun guy, but that one has my attention. | ||
| Sifo |
Just got back from a gun shop run with my son. I checked out the Springfield DX 3.3. Both my son and I liked it a lot. I found it a little heavy but not objectionably. What I didn't like was the DX Mod2. It seemed well made but just didn't fit my hand right. I wished I liked it as much as I liked the DXs 3.3. Next I checked out the M&P Shield. Again, I could have lust in my heart for this one. Smaller, lighter and really well made. I need one of these. But it was the same situation. When we move to the next one size up, the M&P9. Again, to my feeling it wasn't nearly as well balanced and just wasn't right for me. The Ruger LC9 is another great gun and for a small handgun,it's an absolute winner. The next size up is the Ruger SR9. Again the larger gun didn't feel right in my hand. So I went back and re-fondled the Glocks. They didn't have a G30S but they did have a G30SF and that has the same frame. It was perfect for my hand. Then I tried the G26 again. It felt really good. Not as perfect as the 30 but really good. Then down to the G43. It melted down into my hand and was exactly the way a gun should feel. I guess it's gonna be some Glocks... That said, I really liked some of those guns. Especially the M&P Shield. I think down the road I need one of those too. was And this is the problem with personal preferences. Guns that feel great to me, are not feeling good to you. Fondling them in person is the ONLY way to know what will work for you. Then rent from your short list. You are on the right track. M1combat's comment about triggers is right on target. I love the trigger on my 1911, but for defense, I'm willing to sacrifice something in the trigger for not having to deal with a manual safety. Honestly, the trigger on my 1911 when you are pumping with adrenaline is a recipe for an accidental discharge. Everyone is different though. There is no good one size fits all solution. | ||
| Mnscrounger |
"Fondling them in person is the ONLY way to know what will work for you." Yeah it's like someone else picking out your new shoes,,,,,, '''''' wait for it,,,,, ,,,,,, or your bride. | ||
| Stevel |
As far as my preference for concealed carry, reliability and accuracy, the H&K P7 single column is the best. I can hold 6" groups at 25 meters all day long and often better with careful one hand aiming. The down side is the pistol can only shoot standard full jacket ammo or it fouls. It has the standard 1 in 10 twist, hammered barrel and gas porting which precludes unjacketed bullets. It has ne external bits that snag clothing and can safely be carried with a round chambered, as it is a squeeze cocked. I pocket carry and find it superb, but it holsters poorly. With a little practice, it deploys very fast. For holstered carry and really high performance both in stopping power and supreme accuracy a custom early 1911 with a 6" barrel is the hot setup. My hard chromed 1911 with hand fit custom barrel and barrel bushing, hand fit slide, progressive recoil spring, using a 200 grain No. 67 Henley and Gibbs bullet in Lin-o-type with 11.5 grains of Blue Dot shoots touching holes at 25 meters at 1200+ FPS out of a Ransom Rest. | ||
| Aesquire |
Steve, you can get plated bullets now that won't foul the gas action and are cheaper than jacketed for practice. I'm a big fan of the P7. When you get tired of it let me know.  darn hard to find. | ||
| Gregtonn |
For comfort and concealment it would be hard to beat: This gun, http://ruger.com/products/lc9s/models.html with one of these holsters. https://www.remoraholsterstore.com/Articles.asp?ID =259#modifications G | ||
| Zane |
So I've fondled all the mainstream 9mms and 45 that come in small to medium packages and each line has a gun I could fall in love with. So here's the question. Am I over thinking the training issue. I started this thread with the idea that I wanted the controls and layout of several guns to be exactly the same through out my every day carry self defense arsenal. Am I being too obsessive over that idea. Is it really that important to have the self defense guns all function the same no matter the model in my hand at the moment? | ||
| Henshao |
I guess I'm a little moot on that issue, as Kahrs have no controls to fumble with. There is a slide catch and a magazine release, and that's it. "How do they work? You pull the damn trigger." Did you try a Kahr? I think the main issue with different platforms will be if they feel similar but operate differently. For instance, if the magazine release is in the same location as the safety on two different firearms, that would be a problem. | ||
| Sifo |
When fractions of a second matter, do you want to stop and thing about which gun your are reaching for and how it operates? I know I don't. Muscle memory will take over. You will probably have more time shooting your full size gun at the range. It will be the small gun that is most likely needed to deploy in a mad rush. It's a bad time for muscle memory to be trying to operate the wrong gun. In my mind, you would need to have a very good reason for having platforms that operate differently if you are starting from a clean slate right now. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
M1 combat: "The Glock trigger is "HORRIBLE" though." And Sifo: "M1combat's comment about triggers is right on target. I love the trigger on my 1911, but for defense, I'm willing to sacrifice something in the trigger for not having to deal with a manual safety." I will agree to some point on the stock trigger, but not "horrible", on Glocks but as I stated before it can be made as good as any out there with minimal expense and a little work on your part. The best "stock" triggers I have tried on a pistol are; almost any pre 80's series 1911's for single action and a Para Ord. in double action only. AND even these can benefit from a fluff & buff. If you have not tried what I have you would be pleasantly surprised. Has anybody also done exactly this? Below are links to two very simple u-tube videos for some great how to instructions for DIYSers and the simplicity of my exploaded Glock 30 on my table, minus the tie wrap of course. Bob www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4BccY7wmIE&list=PL9730783DC8 www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaZTch_BVvc  (Message edited by Bob_thompson on December 11, 2015) | ||
| Zane |
Well, I know that I can sometimes get a little OCD about some things. Watch my kids run when they see me with a level....lol So I'm just looking for a reality check on the subject. I've been looking and for reasonable prices there are some really good handguns on the market right now. Enough to make this a very hard choice. If I'm going to spend a grand to $1500 or so, I don't want to think I've made a good choice, I want to KNOW I've made a good choice. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
I understand Zane, I have been there on some things myself. Compromises are always necessary so I would suggest finding a gun shop that will have a good selection so you can handle as many weapons as possible and even shoot a few that "feel just right". Good luck my friend and "lets be careful out there". Bob | ||
| Sifo |
I've done trigger work on several pistols now. It's not rocket science, but some have managed to screw it up. For the most part though, simply polishing mating surfaces smooth won't cause you problems if you are careful to not reshape things. Most of the popular guns will have trigger kits too if you want to spend the money. I'm always careful testing a gun after trigger work though. Start with a single round and make sure it works correctly. Then two rounds. Multiple times just to make sure it doesn't auto fire on you. Auto fire of a full double stack magazine would not only be dangerous, but could get you federal charges for "converting" your gun. Zane, it sounds like you are on your way to making a good choice. Know that you've gone through the process, and rent one or two final candidates if you can. If it works well for you, don't worry about why someone else can't make it work for them. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Sifo. +1 on all suggestions. Well stated. Bob | ||
| Zane |
Had the chance to talk to a gunsmith yesterday, retired USMC. He wasn't a fan of Glocks at all, preferring 1911 style pistols. His big complaint was the trigger. He told me Glocks trigger pieces are stamped steel. The stamping process leaves rough edge on the pieces and that smoothing those edges does improve the trigger a lot. | ||
| Fb1 |
Is it really that important to have the self defense guns all function the same no matter the model in my hand at the moment? What's the downside? None. | ||
| Henshao |
Well, if you don't hear me all I can do is wish you the best of luck, buddy. | ||
| Aesquire |
Is Zane being too obsessive? NO!! Totally rational. You want all the switches the same. Example from another realm. John Denver died in a plane crash. He "ran out of gas" with plenty onboard. The lever to change fuel tanks was out of sight, & did not operate the same as the planes he was used to. Other than that ONE lever, there was nothing wrong with the plane or his skills. Food for thought. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I thought the same thing. Hmm.
I beg to differ on the skills part...but I get your point. | ||
| Aesquire |
Right. That kind of thing, pushing the wrong switch/lever, sometimes gets the best in trouble. Not going to argue on John Denver's skill. The problem was that a perfectly functional control wasn't manipulated properly, and the user couldn't fix his mistake. In time. Choosing a modern system that you can treat like a revolver, no manipulation other than aim & pull trigger, is a wise choice. Simpler is better. Not dissing the classic 1911. If you practice 1911, then consider a Kimber Solo. Same switches iirc. There are other 1911 lay out small guns. I'm neutral on brand name in this discussion. I like some better than others. But. But fit is usually more important, other things being equal. | ||
| Mrlogix |
As a firearms instructor I have several drills that I use with my advance students such as "battlefield Pickup". They start the course of fire with their sidearm and half way through the drill they have to holster and use the firearm at the station that is in various states (safety on, double feed, stove pipe, etc.). This drill is timed and scored on accuracy. If your gun malfunctions, you may have defend yourself with something your not used to. As far as carry goes, I carry a full sized 1911 Kimber custom OWB and have a Kimber Pro Carry in a holster shirt as my BUG. The magazines are interchangeable. Two guns same magazines. | ||
| Rick_a |
I don't get the operation of my guns confused. They all have a very distinctive feel. | ||
| M1combat |
Anyone who like a 1911 (Me) should check out an H&K USP if they're looking for a more modern design. Same grip angle, same controls (except if you pull the safety WAY down it's also a de-cocker), good trigger, great accuracy, top shelf reliability, simple, advanced, probably the most reliable firearm ever produced, configurable in many ways for lefties, SAO, DAO, SA-DA... the list could go on... | ||
| Thumper74 |
Zane, you could get the G43 and G19 for CCW, then a G17 for the home for $1500.00... They all have the same operation. I just sold my HK USP in 9mm. It's a BIG gun. Much bigger than a full size 1911, but it was a great gun. | ||
| Oddball |
SIG 250 or 320. Configure them to the size needed at any particular time. Compact, subcompact or full size. I was never a SIG fan but they appear the best of the plastic fantastics overall. | ||
| Zane |
One of the things I've notices is that I really like the back sight of the Glocks. That U sight for some reason it easier for my AARP type eyes to pick up. I think I might consider replacing the front sight with a fiber optic sight but would keep the rear. For some reason that's just easier for me to acquire that a 3 dot type sight. I'm torn. I've seen and held some great handguns. Really, if I stay with a major brand, I don't think there's going to be a problem. They're all excellent piece. And yes Hensho, I've even fondled the Kahrs and include them in the category of excellent pieces. |
