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Hootowl
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 05:24 pm: | 
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They could sell it for what it cost to shut it down, plus whatever their investment was, which from what I understand was less than the cost to close it.
I'd wager a guess that the initial offer from BRP exceeded this amount. |
Steveford
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 06:37 pm: |
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Call me childish but I don't care what happens to Harley; cruisers and giant touring bikes don't appeal to me.
If Erik doesn't return to street bike production when new bike time rolls around again, I'll be on a Triumph or Ducati.
Those people understand sport bikes and the people who ride them, Harley never has and probably never will.
Oh yeah, I turned 50 this year so according to the demographic I should be casting an eye towards a Geezer Glide.
Nope! |
Dynasport
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 06:53 pm: |
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Patches, I don't know what HD should have sold Buell for. I'm pretty sure $1 would have been better than what they got for it though. |
Patches
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 07:04 pm: |
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Harley Davidson total Motorcycle Shipments for 2009 ending 12/31/2009
Harley Davidson shipped 223,023 Harley Davidson Motorcycles and also shipped 9,572 Buell Motorcycles.
Net Revenue for Harley Davidson Motorcycle Shipments is $3,174,810,000.00.
Net Revenue for Buell Motorcycle Shipments is $46,514,000.00.
Net Revenue for Harley Davidson Motorcycle Shipments is $3,174,810,000.00 divided by 223,023 Harley Davidson Motorcycles equals $14,235.00 Average each.
Net Revenue for Buell Motorcycle Shipments is $46,514,000.00 divided by 9,572 Buell Motorcycles shipped equals $4,859.00 Average each.
The last motorcycle was produced on October 30, bringing the number manufactured to 136,923.
136,923 in 26 years.
At less than 5 grand per unit where is the profit margin for Buell motorcycles?
How much did cost Harley Davidson to keep Buell Motorcycle in production for 26 years?
"They could sell it for what it cost to shut it down, plus whatever their investment was, which from what I understand was less than the cost to close it."
With the Economy in the shape it is in these days, what Company would lay down that much Money?
Data source for 2008 and 2009 retail sales figures shown is sales warranty and registration information provided by Harley Davidson dealers and compiled by Harley Davidson Motor Company.
Source: http://investor.harley-davidson.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=439413
(Message edited by patches on April 21, 2010) |
Dynasport
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 07:12 pm: |
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Are you saying the dealers paid less than $5000 per Buell? That's not bad profit for the dealership. |
Steveford
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 07:20 pm: |
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Dynasport,
Dealer profit wasn't that much - if I recall correctly, it was around two grand for the tube frame and XB models if they could sell them at list.
Blast was maybe a grand.
1125s were after my time but I believe comprable to the XB.
Someone correct me if I've remembered incorrectly, please. |
Jerry_haughton
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 08:56 pm: |
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How anyone could count themselves a friend of Erik Buell but maintain respect for HDI is beyond me.
Blake, the gentlemen who founded Harley-Davidson, the folks who guided the company in the ensuing century-plus, and the hard-working Americans who built and sold my Harley had absolutely nothing to do with the closure of Buell.
I don't care for the political leanings of our current President. Are you suggesting that I denounce America?
I've demonstrated my support of Erik over the years in many ways. I continue to wish him well.
I will also continue to enjoy my Road King. It's been a good friend for the past 43,000 miles, and I hope to tack on a few more before we're both too old and slow to hang with y'all.
And yes, I've read Mr. Anderson's piece - my copy of CW is sitting on my nightstand. I think I'll withhold judgment until I've heard all sides of the story.
This has been a pretty good thread, a lot of intelligent debate and discussion (with very little name-calling and vulgarity - what a refreshing change) about a subject that's a relevant topic on this board.
For the record: I do not think a Harley is "better" than a Buell.
My Harley, however, has been better for me.
JH |
Reindog
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 09:08 pm: |
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So you are a troglodyte and a fresh-water pirate? |
46champ
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 09:23 pm: |
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Steveford was the percent of profit for the Buells about the same as the Sportsters. I know at one time if you sold a Sportster for list it was about 20% to 25% profit the big twins were more some times a lot more. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 09:34 pm: |
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I too think the bikes are nice. I just cannot abide the dishonesty and maliciousness of the corporate leadership or a board of directors who save one have no tangible connection to the sport of motorcycling. You'll likely not hear any official rebuttal to Steve Anderson's reporting. They've already been caught in a lie trying to deflect attention from the agenda to kill off Buell Motorcycle Company. Steve Anderson is as honest a man as you'll find.
If/when HDI make right by Buell, then and only then will I be able to look past their miserable business practices.
When being in the loan business is more important than being in the sport bike business, color me gone. I just despise greedheads in any shape or form. |
Jerry_haughton
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 09:39 pm: |
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So you are a troglodyte and a fresh-water pirate?
Tom, sorry, spent a long time thinking about my reply to Blake and forgot all about the sweet nothings you'd whispered in my ear earlier.
Yes, and yes.
Happy now? 
JH |
Jerry_haughton
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 10:00 pm: |
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You'll likely not hear any official rebuttal to Steve Anderson's reporting...Steve Anderson is as honest a man as you'll find.
Blake, this is what moto-journalist Reg Kittrelle had to say, in part, about Mr. Anderson's piece:
"It was a good article. My only concern was one that set off a few people around these parts: it wasn't good journalism.
This does not mean that I felt it inaccurate or lacking credibility. Steve Anderson is a very, bright, credible person
What it does mean is that,
1. It was written by an ex-Buell employee
2. It was written by a friend of Erik's
3. It was written by an ex-CW staffer
4. The other side of the story was missing."
I'm inclined to agree on all counts.
I'm also inclined to agree with you that we're unlikely to ever hear an "official" rebuttal.
I suspect there's a decent chance you've heard some juicy gossip re: the closure of Buell that we minions are not privy to.
Care to share?
JH |
Elvis
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 10:22 pm: |
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The "other side of the story" was a lie: "Buell was too integrated to sell."
If Harley chooses to take the fifth, I think we have a right to infer from that what we will.
The only thing preventing the "other side of the story" from getting out is that Harley refuses to offer it.
If we take Buell out of the picture, it's very disconcerting to me, as a lifelong motorcycle enthusiast, that Wandell has basically said NOTHING about his long term view of the actual product. What is his vision of the ideal Harley Davidson? What does he strive to achieve in terms of a better product?
He's simply not a motorcycle guy and I don't think it ever bodes well for the long term prospects of a motorcycle company to not have a motorcycle guy at the helm. |
Rpm4x4
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 11:21 pm: |
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Elvis, I could not agree more. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 11:42 pm: |
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20buellteam
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 02:43 am: |
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As a HOG stock holder (a very tiny one ) I bought shares when stock values dropped to the $50+ mark about 3 yrs ago(What a deal!). With each market/economy hit over the past couple of years and subsequent share price drop, I bought just a little bit more to bring down my average cost/share to about $26 a share. Last October I wanted out of H-D because I was Mad at H-D management's unexplainable behavior with refusal to sell off Buell in any way if they wanted out of the sport bike business,(the management direction simply scares me as an investor) but I didn't want to take a hit so like the seasonal ups & downs of the motorcycling industry in general, I waited for Spring. When it hit the news about H-D's dismal recent profit picture -I thought.... I'm screwed! , but the value peaked up to $35+ on Monday(go figure).... I sold with a small gain. Values dropped since and who knows what's next? I'm glad that roller coaster ride is over. I think I'll look at some Ford stock for now. And jump into what ever Eric has going down the road. |
Cyclonedon
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 03:29 am: |
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I think I'll look at some Ford stock for now. And jump into what ever Eric has going down the road.
you might want to look at Apple. I know the price is high but with the new improved iPhone coming out and looking to expand the iPhone to other carriers such as Verizon this fall, I think that stock is going to take off and go sky high. |
Cyclonedon
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 04:12 am: |
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Buell was their ticket back into that market, but they chose to sabotage and then kill off Buell Motorcycle Company. Then in spite they refused to sell even just the water-cooled portion of Buell's product line to interested buyers.
Blake, I agree with your statement 100%
as time goes by, more HD stock holders are going to question why didn't they try and sell the Buell Motorcycle Company. That just doesn't make any sense because they spent millions to close the company and didn't get anything out of that decision.
I visit several different Harley dealerships and I'm not seeing any of the younger motorcycle riders visiting those dealerships because Harley just doesn't make motorcycles that appeal to the younger generation.
This year at the Chicago IMS, the motorcycle company that impressed me the most was Honda, they make so many different types and styles of motorcycles that really impressed me, and I've never owned a Honda before. But I may someday. |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 10:07 am: |
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One little tidbit I learned from someone in the know: Harley charged BUELL $2,700 for every Blast engine. The Blast had an MSRP of what? $4,995? Ask yourself how much profit could ANYONE (other than the engine supplier) make on a deal like that?
I'd heard Erik joked he could get a better price if he bought all the parts at RETAIL and built the engines himself...
The earlier hypothesis that Buell was used to hide HD's own corporate mismanagement makes more and more sense.
No, I can't link to a source for that particular tidbit either... but I trust the source that provided it. |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 10:20 am: |
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...actually, the MoCo *lost* something like $480 for every single Blast that sold at full retail.
That's some stellar management there.
The *excuse* was...."the Blast is still being made like it was back in 2001 so we can supply a bike to Riders Edge". Now, we didn't have RE where I was, so I don't know what the price structure was for the program....but it *almost* makes sense if you look at it...well, like a Wandell (without a clue) - there's something like a 30% conversion rate for RE grads. That is, 30% of grads from the program buy their first bike right then and there.
That's a lot of XL's.
Which, of course, makes the MoCo have to come up with programs like Ride Free (where you can trade up from your XL to a Big Twin within a year for full MSRP), to protect the value of their brand. If the dealer *has* to pay a high price to buy a used bike, what happens to the price when it's put on the floor? Yep, it stays high...and people oooh and aaah about how "valuable" a used Harley is, and what a good investment it is.
Despite the fact that the dealers are getting absolutely FLOODED with 'em.
Like the butler in Mr. Deeds says - "I'm sneeky-sneeky". |
Swordsman
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 10:31 am: |
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So, while the vast majority of folks on here may not be interested in cruisers, a very large percentage of the U.S. motorcycle market is. And, like it or not, HD is still seen by most Americans as a desirable brand to own.
That's currently. Will the texting/video gaming/software pirating/rap loving/always online generation think Harley's are cool when they grow up?
As the product line stands now, not a chance. Their "retro" bike will be a 1999 Hayabusa.
~SM
(Message edited by Swordsman on April 22, 2010) |
46champ
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 10:47 am: |
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Swordsman a Hayabusa maybe what that generation wants, but most won't own because the bike will scare them. I personally think almost all of them are spectators. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 11:03 am: |
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Going by what my son said about this topic:
"Everyone wants a GSXR or a Yamaha R1."
There a a bunch of kids that ride on the campus there.
Seems the Ninja 250 and the Ninja 650 are the most popular bikes there.
There are two Buells, both are XB12Ss.
Many many scooters.
I guess the scooter crowd is on target for the 48. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 11:30 am: |
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"They could sell it for what it cost to shut it down, plus whatever their investment was, which from what I understand was less than the cost to close it."
With the Economy in the shape it is in these days, what Company would lay down that much Money?
Most companies are doing just fine. The smart ones are buying and positioning themselves for the inevitable recovery.
BRP made two offers, AFTER the recession started, both of which were rejected. So to answer your question, BRP would lay down that kind of money. Selling Buell wouldn't have cost them a cent. Shutting it down did. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 11:32 am: |
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http://www.marketwatch.com/video/asset/news-hub-am id-downturn-harley-revs-up-2010-04-20/58563B5B-78F 6-4AB8-A2BD-F4B7720BCFF0
Thanks to Greatnorthrider, James Neff for posting this in another thread. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 12:02 pm: |
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Patches
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 01:14 pm: |
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"Are you saying the dealers paid less than $5000 per Buell? That's not bad profit for the dealership."
-Data source for 2008 and 2009 retail sales figures shown is sales.
At less than 5 grand per unit where is the profit margin for Buell motorcycles?
How much did cost Harley Davidson to keep Buell Motorcycle in production for 26 years?
"BRP made two offers, AFTER the recession started, both of which were rejected."
-Source? |
Dynasport
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 01:59 pm: |
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Patches, I think we have a disconnect going on. You are using $5000 average cost for dealers to show there was no profit margin for Buell to HD. Yet, the way I see it is that HD set the cost to the dealers for the bikes. In other words, HD decided to sell Buells to dealerships for $5000. These bikes retailed in the $10,000 ball park, depending on model of course. The wild card being the Blast. Of course if the Blast counted for the majority of the Buells counted, then the difference between what the dealer paid and the MSRP was much closer.
But back to my point. HD decided what to charge the dealerships for the bikes. If they sold them to the dealer without enough profit margin built in, whose fault was that? It seems pretty well documented that HD made all the final decisions. I find it very hard to believe that HD sold Buell motorcycles to dealers at half of MSRP. Wasn't the ULY Buell's most popular model over the last few years? It had an MSRP of over $11,000 I think. The XT was even more. The 1125s were over $10,000. The Firebolt and Lightning right at $10,000. And HD sold them to the dealers for less than $5000? Strange indeed. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 02:11 pm: |
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Source? Have you been under a rock for the last three months?  |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 02:21 pm: |
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http://www.dealer-world.com/issues/amd128
There are many more, and not just on motorcycle forums.
Let me google that for you.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=BRP+buy+buell |
Patches
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 03:00 pm: |
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Data source for 2008 and 2009 "RETAIL SALES FIGURES" shown is "SALES WARRANTY"
and "REGISTRATION INFORMATION" provided by Harley Davidson "DEALERS" and compiled by Harley Davidson Motor Company.
The Data Source paragraph at the bottom of the this statement page>>>>http://investor.harley-davidson.com/releasedetail. cfm?ReleaseID=439413
Hootowl,
There is Nothing on "Bombardier Recreational Products" "Harley Davidson" Web-Sites suggesting Any Corporation to buy Buell from Harley Davidson.
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/bomber-motorc ycles-erik-buell-brp-street-bike/ |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 03:12 pm: |
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I never said there was. That doesn't mean BRP didn't offer to buy Buell. It only means BRP didn't publish their failed buy attempt on their site, and that HD hasn't publicized their failure to make the right decision on their site.
Do you believe BRP did not make HD an offer? Is that what you’re saying? |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 03:13 pm: |
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The April Fools gag has NOTHING to do with the buyout offer. |
Rex
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 03:50 pm: |
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$2700 dollars to Buell for the Blast motor? wow, I have seen sportster or buell motors on the dealership floor for $3000, retail.
Yes, the article was good read, but as you say, that was only from the Buell side. I am sure somewhere in the HD halls people were justifying their decisions, whether they were right or wrong.
It must have been frustrating on Erik and his crew, those that were in the top level of Buell. Erik, Jon, Steve and his top staff.
It sounded like Jon Flickenger (sp) really has his presentations together when he would present them to HD execs and board. It sure looks like they would have listened to him. He had been with HD for a long time before coming to Buell. He believed in what they were doing.
Having to do with what they could. Trying to save dollars here and there to come up with a bike they wanted to build. |
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