| Author | Message | ||
     Jerry_haughton |
Hey Jerry...Quit being a sour puss. Paw, my posts above included two of these  and one of these  . Not happy enough for you??? If you do not like it don't read it!!! Back atcha, sir. FBRAT II? Spidey, dude, I'm still recovering from the first one... Hughlysses, my take is that Mr. Wandell was brought in because he's a tough, no-nonsense businessman with a proven successful track record. My take is that he was tasked with saving (this may or may not be too strong of a word) a company that was hit very hard by the downturn in the economy. Possibly he was also hired to weed out some alleged mismanagement that continues to be hinted at. It's absolutely for certain that his first and foremost priority was and is to save the MoCo, perhaps at all costs. Buell was part of the MoCo, to be sure, but a very small part. By "exiting" Buell, perhaps the logic was to suffer some significant short-term losses in the interest of helping solidify long-term survival of the core company. Perhaps. On the other hand, maybe it was indeed all personal, someone finally getting a chance to stick it to Erik. Heck, maybe it was also an opportunity to stick it to all the FUHD'ers on BWB. FB | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Wolfie, you're not goin' Pirate on us, are ya? I still gots my chaps and I puts them on every cold morning.... | ||
| Glitch |
Story A: I can't make money, and I cant pay the rent. George? Is that you? | ||
| Hughlysses |
I saw Keith Wandell yesterday and he was leaning up against a post...  | ||
| Edgydrifter |
He was tired... | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
I think there's a bit of angst against everything H-D in the FUHD sentiment- and it's well-founded. The killing of Buell was pretty much the last straw for me personally. Almost every bad experience I've had in the course of owning 26 motorcycles can be directly attributed to H-D, its dealers, or riders. Almost every mechanical failure I've experienced was with an H-D product, as well as the vast majority of warranty repairs. I never experienced pompous attitude except in H-D dealerships. I never experienced a service dept representative insist that not using their product would void my warranty (both illegal and unethical) except in (multiple) H-D dealerships. I never had fellow riders openly disparage the bike I was riding except when at H-D dealerships, and when on the road, without fail, all negative comments always came from riders on H-D products. So, I, and many others here, have good reason to feel angst about our personal experiences with H-D, its dealers, and riders. Of course, I do not intend for my angst to be directed towards every dealer and rider- but the truth is that the majority of H-D dealers I have dealt with, and an unacceptably large number of H-D riders have given me a reason to be upset with them. The mismanagement and ultimate killing of Buell just unleashed this negative sentiment from a large number of people. In order for me, and most likely a lot of other people, to feel good about H-D again, there will have to be major changes to H-D, its product line, a lot of dealers' attitudes, and a lot of riders' attitudes as well. In my experience, H-D is only hurting itself by clinging to an adversarial attitude towards the rest of the motorcycling world. If they would wake up and realize that modern products, new ideas, positive attitudes, and embracing the world-wide motorcycle community instead of looking down their nose at it (unwarranted, no less)- they would be much better off. Until these things happen, I will continue to express my displeasure with H-D by espousing the sentiment I feel- FUHD. | ||
| Skinstains |
I'd rather a 72 Sporty than anything post 83 1/2...FUHD...twice, you bitches !!! | ||
| Skinstains |
Any body want to buy a 38 Servi-Car about 75/80 % restored ? | ||
| Whatever |
•••• Harley Davidson and Wandell and the flat black paint and all the posers... I respect my friends who ride HD's 1000 miles at a crack... but no one else is going to get any sympathy from me... the dealership I bought my Buell from got out of the Buell business a long time ago... whatever... it is not like I think malicious thoughts it is just cathartic to say it... FUHD! | ||
| Strokizator |
Fortunately for me, my experiences with my local dealer, Fresno Harley Davidson/(formerly) Buell have all been excellent. The staff is very knowledgeable and personable. Amazing when you consider that many HD owners aren't motorcyclists; they bought their Harley because is was the cool thing to do but they haven't a clue when it comes to the machine. I don't have the patience to put up with knuckleheads but the staff treats everyone very kindly. I'm guessing that being an HD dealer is more difficult than rep'ing other brands. I suspect the Yamaha dealer answers far fewer stupid questions or deals with people who complain about a defect that can only be seen with a magnifying glass. The parts guy knows his stuff, the service rep knows you and your bike, the techs can do anything you need. I just assumed all the dealers were this good and it's apparent their not. I've been going to my dealer since 1994 and between the 4 bikes (both HD and Buell) parts and service, I just figured out I've dropped close to $100K there. Well $hit, no wonder they love me. My only hope is that the MoCo is one day run again by people who's may concern is motorcycles and not the price of their stock. | ||
| Brumbear |
I got a 51 servi car I am gonna keep cause it was my uncles I will never ride it or will I do anything to it he had 2 knees replaced and can't ride it anymore.I will bury it with him or cut it up in little pieces when he goes and bury it in his plot  | ||
| Skinstains |
So that means you're gonna need one to ride then, right ? | ||
| 46champ |
I know the wrong sportbike division of Harley-Davidson was shut down. I am beginning to fell it was a political decision as much as anything else. Does anyone know if any other company was bidding against H-D for the RED HERRING that they are now trying to keep afloat? When they shut down Buell they merely pissed off 100,000 owners and a few dealers. If the Red Herring was shut down they would have caused an international incident. In the long run the international incident will have cost them less, because they now have the scorned lover syndrome to live down. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Almost every bad experience I've had in the course of owning 26 motorcycles can be directly attributed to H-D, its dealers, or riders. Redbuelljunkie, thanks for your well-written post. I obviously don't see the H-D Nation with the same level of angst as you, but at least you took the time to articulate your thoughts. If they would wake up and realize that modern products, new ideas, positive attitudes, and embracing the world-wide motorcycle community instead of looking down their nose at it (unwarranted, no less)- they would be much better off. For the most part, I agree. I would argue, however, that H-D's motorcycles are world-class, and I think it's hard to fault a company for sticking with tradition when that tradition netted them something like 20+ years of record-breaking profits after their buyout from AMF and the subsequent improvement to their product line beginning with the Evo Big Twins in 1984. I don't see how ANY business these days can afford to be lazy or arrogant about any aspect of their customer service, and yet it exists. I've experienced it in Harley dealerships first-hand, as recently as within the past two weeks, and it didn't matter that I rolled in on a high-buck Harley - my motorcycle and I were still treated poorly. Harley-Davidson has their work cut out for them. If they survive, their product line should be even better, and perhaps their overall attitude will be a little more realistic. I feel badly for the Elves who lost their jobs, and for Erik, of course, but I think there's a decent chance history may ultimately show this to be one of the best things to ever happen to him, and to fans of his motorcycles. FB | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
On the other hand, Harley has done - and continues to do - a lot of things right: http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/M DA/Muscular_Dystrophy_Association.jsp?locale=en_US | ||
| Nevrenuf |
my buddy cheech has a 54(i think) servicar. totally restored. currently working on his 46 knucklehead. these are just two of 7 for him. others are pan,shovel,evo and his new limited. he's the one that got me back into riding after my dad passed away. he knows how bummed with the moco's decision but he also knows how much i love my bikes. but i do love my buells more though | ||
| Glitch |
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I hope H-D survives and thrives. Am I upset Buell was murdered? Absolutely. Do I wish ill will towards H-D? I wish no ill will towards anyone. Do I feel Wandell is right for the job? Obviously he's made decisions I'd not have made, but who am I to say how to run a corporation? Hell, I'm having a hard enough time getting myself up and running. I've made several mistakes, business killing mistakes. Fortunately I've not taken 200 employees down with me. I was mad, I'm not anymore. I was sad, I'm not anymore. I'm trying to look forward, not back. When I do look back, I like to see the air-cooled Buells, you know the ones that wouldn't have been if H-D hadn't been there. All this angst reminds me of my boys when they were in their early teens. Pissed off as hell, with no positive notions what so ever. But that was age appropriate, and this bitterness towards H-D is probably somewhat appropriate, as long as it fades soon. Everyone grieves differently. I'm trying to look at the bright side. Erik is racing. When Erik and I talked, and the subject got to racing, there was an excitement that one only gets when someone is talking about first loves. I hate the way it came about, but I'm looking at it that Erik now gets to race, to concentrate on that first love. H-D was only holding him back. I'd bet that soon, we'll all be saying that, and thankful that H-D did what they did. We don't care for how they did it, but I so optimistic that Erik will land on his feet, and shine, that it'll not matter quite so much a year or two from now... ramble... ramble... ramble... Sorry fellas, I just felt like I needed to say this for some reason... Hey Jerry! Hope all's well in the mountains! | ||
| Spiderman |
Spidey, dude, I'm still recovering from the first one... Unfortunately the gloves are on their last leg  | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Hey Jerry! Hope all's well in the mountains! Hey Glitch, we're well, thx, and glad winter finally seems to be over - this one was tough. Our best to you and Ann. Unfortunately the gloves are on their last leg Ol' Ferris feels the same way some days... | ||
| Spiderman |
But those gloves, man the gloooooves!!!! | ||
| Kc10_fe |
I will continue to support my local HD shop as long as they continue to support my Buell. NJ has already lost several HD dealers since Jan and There will be more. Cutting production could mean waiting lists for some models. This worked fine when HD didn’t have the competition of Victory, YamaHarley, SuzukaHarley, or the numerous start ups. I waited a year for my Softail while I was playing in the sands of OEF/OIF. I was so excited to get my bike when I came home. When I went to pick it up the first thing I noticed was how cheap everything looked, Ugly stock pipes, crappy looking cables and controls. Basically it took me about 4K to get it nice. It totally reminds me of Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep and the nickel and dime you approach to options. The folks that worked at the dealer were OK enough to make it a good experience but not a returning to buy another experience. South Park hit the nail on the head. The image I thought for many years was so American, so rebel to me is now just lame. I can’t take a grown man with a pony tail wearing acid wash jeans seriously about anything including selling me a $15K+ motorcycle. HD boots check, HD pants check, HD vest check, HD dew rag check. Tatted up arms with no MOS/AFSC CIB, CAB, CAM, PH, Jump or Aircrew wings also missing Pagan, Warlock, Breed, HA, Tribe makings but got the design off the wall of a local tat shop to me is an HD employee who looks like a fvckin douchebag! They also did a great job of selling Buells since HD again lacked the insight to offer a bike that stood apart from the other buckets under the same roof a place of its own. A place where sport riders could have walked in and not meet Joe cool shitbag and his motor clothes wearing live to ride attitude. The new crop of aviators I fly with who will take my spot in 4 years when I go are tech savvy, high speed fans of turbo chargers and 4 banger engines, I Phones and 600R or 1000R Jap bikes, . HD to them is an old man’s company, selling 700lb trash trucks with loud pipes which isn’t incorrect. HD fails to reach them because HD continues to chase the older crowd selling shit. The older crowd who lost their 401Ks and have 30 something kids moving back home after being laid off. Who the hell wants to roll a 48 Sporty reissue with no gas tank and Big Fat Tires?? Not the 25 - 35+ year olds I spend my days flying around with. I suppose the big fat bikes are great if you have big fat plans to cruise around in big fat style. Not my idea of fun but whatever makes you happy. I sold my shares for $31 last night and missed the $4 jump. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
this has turned out to be a very interesting thread. Lots of interesting comments written. While I agree with Ferris on wanting Harley to strive and grow because it's a great American motorcycle company, their leadership seems to be steering the American icon motorcycle away from me. As much as I wanted to purchase a HD Road King, there's no way I will own one now after what they did to Buell Motorcycle Company. I'll continue to ride my Ulysses until I can't get on it then I'll get a Can Am Spyder. I still support dealers that support Buell. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
I waited a year for my Softail while I was playing in the sands of OEF/OIF. I was so excited to get my bike when I came home. When I went to pick it up the first thing I noticed was how cheap everything looked, Ugly stock pipes, crappy looking cables and controls. Shawn, thx for your service. Re: cheap, you should have been around in the AMF days. H-D has progressed nicely in this regard since then, altho, of course, there's always room for improvement. My '06 Road King presents itself well in terms of overall fit and finish, in my opinion. HD fails to reach them because HD continues to chase the older crowd selling shit. H-D was literally hours from death prior to the AMF buyout. They knuckled down and got serious about building a better motorcycle. The challenge, of course, was how to do this without losing their "heritage," since it was, in large part, such heritage that had seen them thru their first 80 years. Their financial turn-around in the following 20+ years was record-setting, perhaps unprecedented in the history of any company in the history of global free enterprise. The numbers are easily available, for anyone wanting specifics. And during this remarkable comeback, from a distance their motorcycles didn't change very much. A laymen could easily mistake a new Harley for an old Harley, or vice-versa. Up close, however, particularly from an owner's perspective, the bikes are radically different, improved in every detail from the Shovelheads that I knew as a pup, and from the motors that came before it. All of this is to say, it's hard to find fault in a company who has built record-setting business success around selling "heritage." It'd be a different story if the "new" Harley-Davidson had failed after their buyout from AMF. But they haven't - they've succeeded beyond anyone's wildest expectations. And the vehicles that fueled this success - the "700lb trash trucks" as you call them (my RK is 800 pounds, by the way) - are very, very good motorcycles. I can't see where Harley has done much wrong in terms of their overall product offering since their buyout. It will be interesting now, however, to see how they react to the new challenges they face. Exiting Buell was to, in part, focus on their "core" product. I can't say that killing Buell was a good financial move, but history indicates that successfully focusing on their core product has been a key - perhaps THE key - to their amazing success. Thx for your post. Gotta get to w*rk. FB | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
PS to Cyclonedon: While I agree with Ferris on wanting Harley to strive and grow because it's a great American motorcycle company, their leadership seems to be steering the American icon motorcycle away from me. As much as I wanted to purchase a HD Road King, there's no way I will own one now after what they did to Buell Motorcycle Company. It seems natural to assume that Mr. Wandell and the other officers involved in the decision to kill Buell knew full well that they'd alienate a lot of people by taking such a radical step. Percentage-wise, however, disgruntled Buell fans probably number in the low single digits compared to fans of Harley-Davidson in general. This may not make anyone here on BWB very happy, but it's probably true. As I iterated in an earlier post, I think corporate H-D decided to suffer some near-term losses in order to help insure their long-term survival. Some of the near-term losses could include lost sales, such as yours. I can think of at least two recent examples of the MoCo taking steps to insure their long-term survival that probably cost them lost near-term sales, these being the introduction of the Evo engine in the Big Twins in '84 and Sportsters in '86 (many old-school Harley riders STILL haven't gotten over such blasphemy), and their fanatical re-devotion to protecting their trademarks that closely followed their buyout from AMF. If you were a fan of Harley in the early to mid-80's, you'll remember well all the vile things said about the MoCo back then, and yet in the comfort of 20-20 hindsight it would appear the folks at the helm knew exactly what they were doing. It's been speculated that exiting Buell was personal, not business, and having had an opportunity over the years to get occasional glimpses "behind the curtain" re: the Harley/Buell relationship, such accusations don't stretch my credibility. However, time may prove that it was simply a sound core business decision, as much as some of us don't want to hear of such a thing. Take care. FB | ||
| Ratbuell |
I think the one piece of the puzzle folks here are missing is.... PEOPLE ARE INSECURE. In general, folks need something to give them "identity", to give them "meaning" and "purpose". By and large here on Badweb, we're a fairly well-adjusted group of individuals (although that Court guy and a couple others can be a little odd, LOL) - but for the most part, people who walked into my showroom when I worked there were LOOKING for the Fashion Show, for the Identity, for the Image. HD has, over the years, learned how to take advantage of that. Note the phrase: Take Advantage. Now, with people watching their dollars a little more closely, consumers want cutting-edge, quality products (iPad is a prime example right now). But, there are still those lost souls searching for an identity and HD is going to cling to the hope that they can make more people think that way. It is, after all, the only thing they know how to do. They've pigeonholed themselves for so long, they've forgotten how to do anything else. I think HD needs a *few* quarters at 70%+ losses to get their heads on straight. What will emerge should be a great motorcycle corporation - because a year or so at 70% loss should clear a LOT of deadwood. And, the deadwood needs to be cleared not only at the corporate level...but at the fatcat-I-can-do-no-wrong dealership level as well. Not a blanket statement by any means...but let's say the herd could certainly use some thinning. I also think that this could not have come at a better time for Buell. Am I angry? Sure. Do I feel for the Elves who lost their jobs? Absolutely. Do I think the company will come again, stronger than ever? YES. Face it - they went out on top. Finding backers should be NO problem, if that's what Erik decides to do. It's not like the eighties/nineties, when he and a handful of others in a barn took what they could get (HD) in order to bring their passion to market - now, he's got cred. He's got a track record (pun definitely intended). He's got a history, and is a 'known quantity'. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Joe, I was hoping you'd chime in - you've got a perspective on all of this that most of us don't. In general, folks need something to give them "identity", to give them "meaning" and "purpose". By and large here on Badweb, we're a fairly well-adjusted group of individuals (although that Court guy and a couple others can be a little odd, LOL) - but for the most part, people who walked into my showroom when I worked there were LOOKING for the Fashion Show, for the Identity, for the Image. HD has, over the years, learned how to take advantage of that. Note the phrase: Take Advantage. Take advantage? I'd call it savvy business. What an enviable position for a company to be in, wherein your product AND your marketing is so successful that people will pay top dollar for your product to make themselves feel "better" (for lack of a better term). Any business who had successfully positioned themselves such would be foolish not to work it for all it was worth, and H-D has certainly done that to perfection. I wonder: Did you have a questionnaire for people to fill out when they were shopping for a new Harley? If they checked "Yes" to the box that asked "Are you insecure?" did you tell them they had to shop elsewhere? I ride a lot, and I see a lot of riders, including Harley riders. I'm biased, of course, but I don't see the rampant insecurity and "poserism" amongst the H-D crowd that many here on BWB rant about. What I see, for the most part, is just the opposite: I see people who've purchased the motorcycle of their dreams, for reasons that are important only to THEM. I see people who could give a rat's ass what anyone else thinks of WHAT they ride, or HOW they ride. I see people, for the most part, with nothing to prove. What I see, as always, are motorcyclists, which, as we know, come in all types, sizes, shapes, colors and preferences. In a perfect world, it'd all be good. Alas, it's not, and it's not. I agree 100% with I think HD needs a *few* quarters at 70%+ losses to get their heads on straight. What will emerge should be a great motorcycle corporation - because a year or so at 70% loss should clear a LOT of deadwood. And, the deadwood needs to be cleared not only at the corporate level...but at the fatcat-I-can-do-no-wrong dealership level as well. Not a blanket statement by any means...but let's say the herd could certainly use some thinning. When the times get tough, the tough get going, and I'm hoping that Harley-Davidson does just that. I also think that Erik is doing just that, as well. Joe, I hope your recovery has gone well and you're back to 100%. If you ever find yourself pointed towards the Parkway, please give a shout. FB | ||
| Road_thing |
Jerry wrote: And during this remarkable comeback, from a distance their motorcycles didn't change very much. A laymen could easily mistake a new Harley for an old Harley, or vice-versa. Up close, however, particularly from an owner's perspective, the bikes are radically different, improved in every detail from the Shovelheads that I knew as a pup, and from the motors that came before it. and I couldn't agree more. In my spacious barn at the Ranchito el Pinche Chingadero reside a '73 FLH and a '96 Road King. From 20 yards, the basic architecture is almost identical. Get off the shovel and onto the evo and you'll think you've changed time zones. My 31 year old son, defying the demographics, owns an '04 Heritage Softail. Get off the evo and ride the twin cam and you'll think you've moved to another planet. But, from a distance, a non-motorcyclist might have a hard time telling the difference between the three of them (wear and tear and "patina" aside). The point is, in their own time they are/were all quality machines. Some folks may not care for the style, but they all fulfill their intended purpose very well. HD has been around for 100+ years because they have constantly refined and improved their product. Some clearing of corporate deadwood will probably be a good thing. It usually is, when a company has undergone a long period of robust growth like HD has since the mid-80's. rt | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
HD has been around for 100+ years because they have constantly refined and improved their product. To which I might add "...at a slow, methodical and sustainable feed rate." Hey RT! FB | ||
| B00stzx3 |
yes they've been around for 100 years true...but their demographic is aging, they're losing ground to the import cruisers (who also sell bikes that appeal to people under 50), and Victory is getting bigger and bigger. I hate to see American companies get diminshed, but my loyalty to Buell makes it hard to root for HD. | ||
| Road_thing |
Howdy FB!  Here's a pic of the shovel and the evo:  The family resemblance is unmistakable.  rt |
