| Author | Message | ||
     Jerry_haughton |
They look like nothing more than 700lb trash trucks to me, my brudda. Whatever floats yer boat...  | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Bobby - yes they've been around for 100 years true...but their demographic is aging, they're losing ground to the import cruisers (who also sell bikes that appeal to people under 50), and Victory is getting bigger and bigger. I hate to see American companies get diminshed, but my loyalty to Buell makes it hard to root for HD. - H-D's demographic has been aging for over a century.  - Disagree that they're "losing ground" to the import cruisers - examples, please? - H-D also sells bikes that appeal to people under 50. - Agree that Victory is getting bigger and bigger. Talk to me more about this at Victory's 100-year anniversary bash. (And besides, the competition is good. I think Victory has their game on, and I think Harley is keenly aware of the new kid on the block. This awareness can only be a GOOD thing for H-D, for their future motorcycle offerings, and for us riders.) - Fully understand about the "loyalty to Buell" thing, and I don't discredit your loyalty in the least - I was there once myself. Take care. FB | ||
| Road_thing |
BOO: I mostly agree with you. Not sure HD is losing ground to the import cruisers, I'd have to research historical market share to agree or disagree on that one, but Victory appears to be coming on strong. I'm interested in the new Cross Roads and Cross Country models as a possible replacement for my Road King, which has 90,000 or so miles on it. I'm not really rooting for HD, but I'm not hoping they'll wither and die, either. I'm still a stockholder, so I want them to continue to prosper financially, regardless of whether I happen to agree with their business decision regarding Buell (which, for the record, I don't). rt | ||
| Swordsman |
I know it's been stated a hundred times, but H-D proper simply cannot tap into the younger segment until they offer a cheaper, more powerful, less traditional design. Kids nowadays don't give a rat's ass about heritage, and "cool" retro to them is the 1980's, not the 1950's. Kids want new, they want high-tech, which is why the Japanese market has swallowed the teens and 20's whole. The XR1200 is a step in the right direction, but still very, very off target. Now, H-D would have a much easier time attracting the 30-somethings that have settled a bit... riders who have learned that faster does not necessarily mean better, and that have had some time to secure a little extra play money. But even we (30ish IS my group) are young enough that the glamour of H-D's past is pretty much lost. I'd like to think that we're mature enough to not need an pre-manufactured identity, but that may be asking a bit much. So, it seems to me that this effort to play up an image that the new generations can't relate to, and have no desire to relate to, is simply a lost cause. They're going to have to change their mindset and buckle down, or get used to those lowered sales as the new norm. Buell could have been the key to this, obviously, had H-D ever really been interested in expanding their base. It's like Harley wants to grow, but only if they can convince everyone to dress a certain way. If you're not into cruisers, they're not interested in your money. That seems really strange to me, and bass-ackwards if you want to expand. ~SM | ||
| Road_thing |
SM: From a marketing perspective, HD's approach has been right out of the textbooks: Whether that'll continue to fly with the younger generation remains to be seen. As a stockholder, I hope it does. As a motorcycle enthusiast, I tend to agree with you. rt | ||
| Swordsman |
From a marketing perspective, HD's approach has been right out of the textbooks Textbooks run out of date. Like you said, it'll be interesting to see if it's time for a new edition. ~SM | ||
| Jaimec |
I'm convinced Harley's current marketing people are simply riding out the wave created by their predecessors. They have no idea how to market to anyone who wasn't already considering a Harley to begin with. The "Asphalt and Rubber" editorial posted here earlier sums it up nicely. Fire 75% of their marketing staff and get new blood. YOUNG blood that understands the youth market. Until you see Fat Bob CVO Ultra Classics (or whatever the **** they call them) competing in the X-Games, that generation is lost. PERIOD. | ||
| Swordsman |
Yeah, they wouldn't even have the Nightster (which seems to be the beginning of a new direction for Sportsters) had it not been for a 27 yo designer. ~SM | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
SM - They're going to have to change their mindset and buckle down, or get used to those lowered sales as the new norm. Agree a little, disagree mostly. I doubt they'll "change" their mindset when it comes to motorcycles - this mindset has served them well for longer than any of us have been alive - but I bet they "sharpen" it a bunch in the coming years. Disagree that H-D's product offerings are the cause of their recent decline in sales. It's got nothing to do with their bikes - which are truly good motorcycles these days (I'm speaking from experience, unlike a lot of the pundits) - and everything to do with the economy. If the financial fortunes of this country (and the world) were still on the boil, so too would Harley's fortunes. The trick now is how to refine their core product and gain new customers, without losing their old customers in the process. Different forces at play, but not unlike the challenge they faced after the buyout from AMF. If you're not into cruisers, they're not interested in your money. That seems really strange to me, and bass-ackwards if you want to expand. Kinda pretty much agree, but it's sure been a hugely successful formula for them. If you and I were in charge for the past several decades, would we have done it any differently?? Well, we'd have had the courage to let Erik and the Elves run free, but, well, that's pretty much water under the bridge at this point. I find it interesting that a guy like Road Thing, who's obviously a long-term fan of Harley-Davidson, is considering replacing his Road King with an offering from Victory. This speaks volumes about the progress Victory has made in not only building a good motorcycle, one that is unique enough to stand on its own merits without being freakish (the Vision excepted...), but also successfully getting the word out that they mean business and that they're here to stay. As I stated above, this level of competition, the likes of which H-D has seldom seen in the "luxo" bike market, can only be a win-win for us, the riding public. It'll be fun to see what Harley's answers to Victory will be. FB | ||
| Road_thing |
Jerry, I'm a long-term fan of just about anything with two wheels and a motor, but, in point of fact, the RK is the first HD I've ever owned. I bought it used in '99 with (if I recall correctly) less than 30,000 miles on the clock. I was coming off a five-year hiatus from motorcycling (overseas assignment followed by my son's high school years in Houston, didn't really want to encourage the moto-bug in him in that traffic environment). Prior to going overseas in '93 (to Rangoon, Burma, of all places) my primary ride was an '82 CB900F, with a '77(?) R100/7 rapidly gaining ground as my favorite. I had been riding a '70 TR6R since 1971. I looked briefly at a used shovelhead FLH in '86, but just couldn't bring myself to give $5,000 for a motorcycle... I test-rode my RK on a whim and decided to give it a try. I liked (and still do) the low-end torque and comfort. Now, 10 years and 60,000 miles later, I will say it's been the best motorcycle I've owned in terms of comfort and reliability. In my declining years, those qualities have become more important to me than high performance, which the 900F had in spades. Not that anybody asked about my personal history...  rt | ||
| Swordsman |
Disagree that H-D's product offerings are the cause of their recent decline in sales. It's got nothing to do with their bikes - which are truly good motorcycles these days (I'm speaking from experience, unlike a lot of the pundits) - and everything to do with the economy. Yeah, I was getting ahead of myself there! I mean long term, due to the upcoming demographic really not being interested in cruisers in general, especially ones with 50's and 60's styling. Kinda pretty much agree, but it's sure been a hugely successful formula for them. If you and I were in charge for the past several decades, would we have done it any differently?? True, but as Einstein said, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". When times change and you don't... well, that's just crazy!  That Asphalt & Rubber article jaimec posted above looks dead on to me. On a slight tangent, check out THIS marketing technique. Harley's hittin' up all the pervy old men (again)! http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/harley-davids on-chatroulette-advertising/ ~SM | ||
| Reindog |
Great debate going on here, mostly thanks to Jerry. I see both sides of the argument but my personal decision is to move my investment money and my motorcycle purchasing dollars elsewhere. HD motorcycles just don't float my boat even though I love the air-cooled v-twin engine. HD might very well survive and prosper but it seems that they are responding to a changing demographic at a glacial pace. I also don't like the feeling that I am a dependent child of an uncaring parent as I intend to keep my 09 Uly for years to come. If it wasn't for American Sport Bike, I would be in deep doodoo. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I have to say, HD *has* been losing a lot of sales to competition. NOT to the economy - maybe (probably, given all the economic texts I've read) we're the anomaly being this close to DC and being fairly recession-resistant because of it, but our numbers were only down about 10% last year. That's units, not dollars - the days of "that's the price, take it or the next guy will" are looong gone, and it is becoming VERY cutthroat in the trenches these days. But this isn’t about discounting….not really, anyway. But, we were losing the sales we did lose, not to poor economy/non-buying, but to other brands. People were doing competitive rides - HD/Victory, HD/BMW, HD/Yamaha, HD/Honda - and lots of times the "advantages" of the HD weren't worth the pricetag...regardless of discounting. And no, we didn't turn away the "insecure" folks...officially. But again, they let me go in March, and I know for a fact that I'm not a good actor. I hate the fashion show – always have - and I know my disdain was coming to the surface (especially as we ran out of Buells and I 'had' to sell HDs again). So, while I didn't officially come out and say "get a freakin' life!"...I'm pretty sure my face said it on many occasions. And in the end…I’m OK with that. But then again, I’m one of those folks who could give a rat’s ass what others think about me – I’m happy with me (for the most part – still coming to terms with this head injury thing, and I’m sure that played a part in my dismissal as well), and if someone else isn’t happy with me…<shrug> Now that’s not to say we didn’t have our share of "good" riders in the group - actual *motorcyclists*, who happened to ride Harleys. Many of them were multi-brand owners (coincidence?)...but there were a good number of people who I'd back up in a heartbeat if they needed me. And for the most part, a HD *is* a very good motorcycle. There are still days when I miss my ’96 (Evo) FLHP. The only problem is, for most of their "core market", the term "performance" is equated not with handling, braking, acceleration, or usability....but in comfort. And noise. Cadillacs are quite comfortable too...but (until recently anyway) I wouldn't want to run the 'ring in one. And THAT is where HD has to shift their focus - they have GOT to realize that "performance" is just as - if not MORE - important as "style" (and noise) to today's buyers. More importantly - THEY HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO MARKET IT. Witness: VRSC (the whole family). XL1200R. FXDX. XR1200. And yes, at the risk of beating a dead horse...Buell. They've shown they can build performance; that they understand it. But the wankers they have in Marketing just....don't...GET IT. Maybe I’m deluding myself, but I keep thinking (hoping) that the US is going to become more “european” concerning motorcycles. Small groups like Badweb and Buell owners in general have already realized that motorcycles are perfectly viable (and economical) TRANSPORTATION – and when the market at large figures that out, hooo-boy is there gonna be a BIG shift in buying. The manufacturers – if that happens – will HAVE to rethink their interpretation of “what a customer wants”. Honestly, though…I think the buying public will HAVE to figure out the transportation equation. Either that, or the industry is gonna be hard-hit, because even though we didn’t see a lot of it here in the DC region…people stop buying toys first when times get tough. And if a motorcycle is just a toy to the majority of the buying public….. | ||
| Swordsman |
Part 2 of the Asphalt & Rubber articles. darn good read. Part 3 isn't out yet. http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/oped/how-to-save-h arley-davidson-part-2-product-lineup/ ~SM | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Wow, lots of ground to cover. RT, my mistake, I thought you'd been on Harleys a lot longer than you have. I think my point still stands, tho, that an avowed fan of Harley is strongly considering a Victory as your next motor. When times change and you don't... well, that's just crazy! SM, I agree, and we're seeing the change at H-D in real time. Like it or not, exiting Buell was part of that change. The challenge is how to change without losing what has brought them this far. Not as easy as it sounds, me thinks. Great debate going on here, mostly thanks to Jerry. Reindog, good to see your name on here. Your check is in the mail...... Seriously, there's a LOT of good debate going on in this thread, and not just from me. Don't wanna go soft on y'all or anything, but the best threads IMO are the ones where everyone can agree to disagree, with resorting to F Bombs and the like. I still don't understand the "aging demographic" comments. Agree that Harley shouldn't shun young buyers (which I don't think they're trying to do), but each day we all get older. H-D's demographic has been "aging" since 1903, and yet the last 20 years saw record-setting quarters year after year after year. And now that the tides have shifted, Harley seems to be shifting, as well. Hard to abandon the timeless appeal of the classic Harley-Davidson motorcycle when it has worked so well for so many years. But agree that "new and improved" can also be good. If H-D survives the present, I think it'll be fun to see how they juggle seemingly opposing dynamics. And THAT is where HD has to shift their focus - they have GOT to realize that "performance" is just as - if not MORE - important as "style" (and noise) to today's buyers. Joe, agree 100,000,000%. Thanks for your well-written and insightful post. On the one hand, I've got to give Harley credit for doling out improvements in their product line at a sustainable pace. This model has served them well. However, as you and others have so aptly stated, it's a bold new world out there, and buyers these days (of ANY product) are plenty savvy when it comes to sniffing out the BS. My RK is a very good motorcycle, but it ain't perfect. To be blunt, the brakes (chrome-plated front brake rotors from the factory!) and suspension suck. I understand the new touring platform is much improved over mine suspension and chassis-wise, and that the new Brembos up front these days work well. I don't have the seat time to back that up, but I read a lot, and I listen. That said, I agree that Harley can't afford to do the smoke and mirrors thing any longer when it comes to performance, whether it be going, slowing, or cornering. Today's consumer is smart enough to know the difference, and sooner or later will catch on. My take is that Harley's present financial woes are all economy-based, but you've got a perspective on all of this that I don't, and I trust what you say. I hope Mr. Wandell and Crew are as moto-savvy as I hope they are. If they ARE, the "next" Harley-Davidson should be a very good motorcycle indeed. FB | ||
| Reindog |
Electric motorcycles for commuting will be one of the waves of the not too distant future. | ||
| Road_thing |
Agreed--that is an excellent read. rt | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
PS to Reindog: I also don't like the feeling that I am a dependent child of an uncaring parent as I intend to keep my 09 Uly for years to come. Tom, I'm seriously out of the loop: What happened to your first Uly?? | ||
| Nevrenuf |
ya'll have to admit that a company like honda gets people on their bikes from diaper(baby) to diaper(adult) as far as the demographics go. from the small dirtbies and quads to their trikes right out of the factory. what does harley offer now. you either got a bike that's only good as a bar hopper or one for the highway. granted their are people (fb) that are quite good at getting around with a bike that's not really designed to do what they do to it, but not everyone can or wants to do that. i know i don't. at least at one point in h-d's history, they did have some smaller type bikes. like the ss125,sx/sxt125,hummer,m50,leggaro and lets not forget the aermacchi. they had the chance to continue that route but didn't. | ||
| Swordsman |
I still don't understand the "aging demographic" comments. Agree that Harley shouldn't shun young buyers (which I don't think they're trying to do), but each day we all get older. H-D's demographic has been "aging" since 1903, and yet the last 20 years saw record-setting quarters year after year after year. H-D's demographic in 1903 wasn't old men. Back in it's day, it WAS the sportbike. That record-setting 20 year surge, considering the H-D demographic, would be the boomers (the largest generation in history) that grew up in the 50's and 60's during H-D's bad-boy heyday, so it would be easy to see a massive growth in sales as this group became financially capable. And yeah, I'm totally guessing here.  Now, if we look 20 more years down the road, I just can't see today's kids having any interest whatsoever in an underpowered bike with 80 year old styling. See much of a market for Model T's lately? ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on April 21, 2010) | ||
| Glitch |
I was talking with my Dad, odd thing that, we never used to talk before I was 30...anyway... We were talking about changing times, and how it relates to technology. We decided that the times they are a changing, much faster than it did. The baby-boomers aren't a factor any longer, unless you're worried about having to take care of us. The generations after us is what needs to be tapped. H-D is trying, I'll give 'em that, but, what they don't understand is the younger generation. I'll admit, I don't. I try, but it escapes me their thought process. They have been exposed to so much more, so much more rapidly than any of us "old folks" can comprehend. Will H-D get on board, or just try to sell retro bikes from a time alien to the buyers of tomorrow. It was an easy sell for us. We were impressed by "Then Came Bronson" "Easy Rider" Evel Knevel and all that. The kids today don't watch "On Any Sunday" and dream. They're surrounded with Travis Pastrana and the Nitro Circus, where retro to them is the Big Wheel and how they can flip one, then on to the next stunt. They have no heroes like we used to, ours were bigger than life, theirs are life, and they can meet them much more readily than we ever could. None of today's heroes are on quests, they're out doing the extreme. Their quest is for instant gratification. There's a point in there somewhere... H-D is simply going to have to "Create a demand, then fill it" if they don't understand the sub 35 age group, they'll turn into a "Buell" only to fill "the niche market" This is my take, do with it what you will. 2¢ and all that. I hope Mr. Wandell and Crew are as moto-savvy as I hope they are. I think Wandell will be long gone before H-D starts making golf carts again... Maybe if Tiger Woods starts riding a Hawg... | ||
| Glitch |
I'm having to agree with the Swordsman. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
SM - H-D's demographic in 1903 wasn't old men. The Founders weren't pups. Neither were most of their customers. Now, if we look 20 more years down the road, I just can't see today's kids having any interest whatsoever in an underpowered bike with 80 year old styling. Or: 20 more years down the road, today's kids will be closer to my age, and maybe an Ice White Pearl Road King with classic 100-year-old styling (and good brakes, dammit!) will be exactly the motorcycle of their dreams. In the meantime, Harley has plenty of other options for the hot-rodders among us. FB | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
ps to Neal: what does harley offer now. you either got a bike that's only good as a bar hopper or one for the highway. This model has worked well for them for a long, long time, and I still contend that if it weren't for the economy in general taking a big steaming dump, Harley would still be in the pink and we wouldn't be having this conversation. | ||
| Glitch |
This model has worked well for them for a long, long time, and I still contend that if it weren't for the economy in general taking a big steaming dump, Harley would still be in the pink and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Honestly? I was thinking the H-D market was pretty much saturated. I don't think that H-D can keep doing what they've always done, and pick back up to the days of waiting lists. | ||
| Swordsman |
The Founders weren't pups. Neither were most of their customers. Ha! Finally I can properly refute you! Both Willaim Harley and Arthur Davidson were in their very early 20's. Refute! Refute, I say!  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley_Davidson#Begin ning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Davidson_%28Ha rley-Davidson_founder%29 ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on April 21, 2010) | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
PS to SM: That record-setting 20 year surge, considering the H-D demographic, would be the boomers (the largest generation in history) that grew up in the 50's and 60's during H-D's bad-boy heyday, so it would be easy to see a massive growth in sales as this group became financially capable. Harley wouldn't have had this growth if their bikes didn't improve. I looked at buying a new Big Twin in 1980 at the dealership in Bremerton, Washington. The Harleys on the floor were sad and pathetic looking in every respect, nothing more than farm tractors with orange-peel paint and wavy chrome. I passed, and bought a new XS-850 Yamaha Triple (one of the best bikes I've ever owned). Had Harley not got their collective heads outta their arses after the buyout from AMF, vastly improving their product without losing their heritage, no cash-flush baby boomer in his or her right mind woulda plunked down their hard-earned greenbacks for one of the MoCo's offerings. Their historic sales run - we're talking over 80 quarters of record-breaking profits here - was ONLY made possible by the fact that Harley once again started making very good motorcycles. That, and their marketing department hit several grand slams over the years. It isn't that I totally disagree with you, or anyone else that is critical of H-D these days, but the picture is larger than you think, I think. Back to w*rk............... FB | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
I don't think that H-D can keep doing what they've always done... Glitch, agree. And I don't think that's their plan. | ||
| Glitch |
That, and their marketing department hit several grand slams over the years. Several grand slams with the same demographic. I'm not dissing H-D, just not seeing them doing anything to attract the younger market with H-D attitude, I don't think it'll work for very long if at all. The demographic H-D hit so wonderfully wasn't moving very fast. Today's market is on the fast track, they're gonna have to work hard at hitting one out of the park with today's crowd. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Refute! Refute, I say! Wish I could, but I can't.  |
