| Author | Message | ||
     Ezblast |
As Requested - | ||
| Joey |
Who is interested in EFI for the Blast? I've been doing research. The MegaSquirt line has a new module out called the MicroSquirt. The ECU module is fairly compact, and will probably fit under the seat, or even in the battery compartment. This module is small because they've gone surface-mount on the components. My only problem is rather than it being cheaper, they've priced it at a big chunk higher than the previous version, which is just bulkier. The kit is just as capable, though. The completed module runs around $400. The kit is around $250. There's a kit with an older processor for around $190 that probably is just as capable of working on the Blast as the more expensive one. If anybody is seriously interested, maybe this can be moved to a new thread. I'm still waiting for a dead ignition module to come in the mail so I can start experimenting with the ignition portion... | ||
| Swampy |
Joey, I just mailed one to DELETED BY REQUEST Maybe you guys can work it out. (Message edited by ezblast on February 05, 2007) | ||
| Joey |
Hey, um, can you remove my email from this public board? I don't want to get hit by any spambots. Anyway, I did some more research. The lower cost module will get confused by a single cylinder engine. I figure I can just cut another notch in the wheel. It looks like the $190 kit will work fine for ignition and efi. It includes a MAP sensor. All I need now is an injector, a throttle body with a TPS, an O2 sensor, etc... | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
You can edit your profile so as not to receive any private messages from board users. Currently you allow that, but your email address is hidden. I've never gotten any spam with the Badweb name attatched to it. (Message edited by gearheaderiko on February 05, 2007) | ||
| Joey |
Thanks, Swampy! I'll be taking pictures of my progress and posting them somewhere. Gearheaderiko: There are bots that scrounge around web pages and look for "any@thing.com/net/org" or similar. Swampy had my email address there. Anybody here can email me, but posting an email address in messages here leaves the address open to spambots. Note how BadWeb made it a link above. (Message edited by Joey on February 05, 2007) | ||
| Swampy |
Joey, So I sent it to you? Cool! I also have some Ford O2 sensors that are good. Would those work? You need to email me your address again. | ||
| Mabueller |
Sounds like an interesting project Joey. Do keep the board informed. Thanks! | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
LOL! Sorry Joey, I didnt understand the question! I didnt realize you were talking about Swampy's post. A little to much Brakeleen huffing in the garage I guess!!! | ||
| Joey |
One O2 sensor should do it. My only concern is whether that will work for the Blast, since it likes to run a little rich. Normal O2 sensors go full swing with only slight variations away from 14.7:1. I'm holding out for a wide band sensor so I can fine-tune power and economy mixtures. Let me do more research on that... | ||
| Joey |
Ignition module came yesterday. Thanks, Swampy! The module is sealed, so I'll have to make adjustments with my Craftsman Dremel clone. Hopefully I can use the hall-effect sensor, but worst-case scenario, I can use it as a template. Details eventually... | ||
| Joey |
I've been working on the concept of an aftermarket ignition for now, so if anybody is interested, you can see the I/C Engine Theory section. Is that the wrong place? I read the post about spark advance, and started thinking. (Dangerous!) (Message edited by joey on February 11, 2007) | ||
| Ezblast |
Your doing great! Keep me posted! GT - JBOTDS! EZ  | ||
| Joey |
I'm thinking that my ignition should tune itself if I ask it to. When the engine reaches the point of detonation because of too much advancement, am I losing power at that point? Just came up with another question: How long is dwell? Oncd I know how long dwell is, and I want to go multispark, do I spark several times in the dwell time, or do I dwell and repeat several times? (Message edited by joey on February 15, 2007) | ||
| Swampy |
I think that if you want to spark multiple times you would have to cut more windows in the cup. Dwell in the old days is the time the points stayed closed, as in degrees of dwell. With the points, closed (dwell) was the time required/needed for the voltage(energy) to build in the coil(coil saturation). With the electronic ignition there are no points and the dwell is not a factor as the coil is triggered by a transistor or a micro chip, It is an instant on/off and the coil is building energy again. The Blast ignition module controls the triggering and also controls the amount of advance. As far as how many times do you spark in a cycle? All you need is once. If you need to get fancy you could fire a second time at the top of the exhaust stroke, but you could possibly affect coil saturation for the next firing sequence, and the idea with the Blast is to keep it simple! I have seen with some old Honda four strokes with crank triggered ignitions a second spark that occured at the top of the exhaust stroke. The Blast is triggered from the camshaft and only fires once during the four cycles which is a good thing as you get the maximum coil saturation and the highest voltage spark posible within design limitations. | ||
| Sarodude |
Joey You could be making less power before you see detonation. Although a knock sensor to pull things back is a nice safety item. -Saro | ||
| Joey |
Multiple Spark is a software issue. I'm not looking to fire somewhere else. Check out http://www.msdignition.com for the automotive concept. I need to know more about it to decide if I want to spark more than once during the ignition point. I'll start simple, then get complex... I've been thinking about a knock sensor. Will the average Blaster want to add a knock sensor to his Blast? I'll have to research cost for the sensor and the amount of effort to install it. | ||
| Joey |
To those who might be interested in this ignition idea, I need some input. For custom tuning, it would be easiest, and cheapest, to simply connect this to a computer. This would allow me to write software for a regular computer that can read data from the ignition microchip and make adjustments. A more expensive idea was to have a controller near the speedometer that would allow someone to go through different RPM/throttle setting and fine-tune the spark advance. A more tedious method I was thinking of that would just require a lot of programming is to monitor throttle vs. acceleration and automatically make minor timing adjustments until an ideal average is found. This last one would be the hardest, considering the limited resources of the microchip that I am using. I'm just trying to get ideas from people who are actually interested in a lower cost adjustable ignition for the Blast. Once I test ways to fine-tune the advance curves, I'll need someone to try it with a modified engine to see if it works. Last question: What's a good, inexpensive knock sensor, and how might I go about mounting it? Thanks to anybody and everybody who has helped me in the planning phase. I'll be assembling a prototype within the next couple of weeks... (Message edited by Joey on February 20, 2007) | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
I like the 2nd and 3rd ideas best (on board the bike and self monitoring throtlle/accel adjustments. But all 3 have merit as it would be nice to be able to track things on a separate computer. Most of the problem I see is that without a dyno or on track monitoring system (recording lap times,corner times, acceleration, etc) it really leaves adjustments up to 'seat of pants' feel. While thats a long used method its really not as accurate as the high tech systems available today. Would a Screaming Eagle Ignition module help your cause? Lastly, these are comments from someone who is not likely to purchase a 'system' unless I can really use it to some great advantage over the SE or Crane ignition module.or maybe I missing the point-its late! | ||
| Joey |
Here's the point. You mentioned 'seat of pants' for adjustments. I know you already know this, but do illustrate my point, I'm going to talk about the basic theory of operation of a dyno. The dyno measures how quickly an engine's RPMs increase under a specific load. With my setup, you don't necessarily know the specific load, so HP results aren't even going to be contemplated. However, if you're running on a nice flat road, then the weight of the bike and rider won't change. So each time you go from idle to full speed in a particular gear, you're going to get the same acceleration. Now, if you have a computer recording the time between each individual spark while watching the throttle, this computer could adjust the timing a couple degrees here and there and see if the sparks come more quickly or more slowly. Once it finds an advance/rpm combination that can't be improved, it sticks with it. I would have a 'default' ignition curve that is close to stock. I'd find a point where the throttle is only partially open (the first curve) and go through engine revs while the computer picks the best timing. I would then get on, ride it up the same stretch of road over and over at WOT, while the computer picks the best timing for that as well. From that point, I can make various throttle runs to get more intermediate curves programmed. Sounds like an awful lot, now that I think about it. The first two curves can be set, and the computer could just monitor normal riding and see where the best spark advance is. With a knock sensor, I could make the curve tuning more aggressive. If it advances too much too quickly, it would know it right away. The chip I'm using for my prototype can only handle about 8000 instructions, so I may not be able to get so complex with the automatic tuning. If I can't, I'll just find a more capable chip. I'm thinking I can match the SE or Crane prices while delivering more features, such as a tach or something. I have stuff on order right now, and I'm writing software. Hopefully I can actually see if I can get the Blast to start with this thing in the next few weeks. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
So, if I understand (or read into), your set up would adjust spark advance for optimal acceleration and fuel burn. It would automatically adjust rather than the rider/tuner having to manually adjust the timing and advance curve. Yes, that would eliminate the need for other monitoring devices (such as dyno or another on board computer). If thats the case you'd be getting a lot more than what the SE/Crane ignition does. Sounds good-I'm in for that! | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
PS The SE or Crane comes with a tach feed. | ||
| Joey |
Yup, this would have to be automated, as I don't have a bunch of different Blast engines to experiment on. Someone mentioned CAN (Controller Area Network). If I end up having to go with a more capable chip (enough program space for automatic tuning) I would definitely get one that has CAN built in. That would make incorporating a tach or anything else much easier. An external chip only costs a buck or so, though. The rider would have to tune it--he'd set it for TUNE, ride up and down the same block over and over at WOT and 1/2 WOT. He'd then set it to normal operation. The only time this would not work well is if you're riding on hilly roads. Going uphill would show different results than going downhill even with the same timing curve, of course. A temperature sensor would be negligible to the cost, so I can have it make adjustments for hot days. A knock sensor would be good, but they're a bit pricey, unless someone knows of cheap ones. The more I think about this, the more I think an in-dash LED display with buttons should be part of it. I'm writing the software right now. I'll get to the hardware when it's warmer in the garage. | ||
| Reuel |
With the ignition project coming to the point of full time use, I'm once again doing research for fuel injection. Throttle bodies seem to be rather expensive, so what's to prevent me from gutting my carburetor and using it as a throttle body? As far as injector placement goes, would I do better to mount it where the slide is now, or would it be difficult to make a mounting hole on the intake? I'd like to put it on the intake, but I'd need to build up the mount so the injector points toward the valve rather than the other side of the intake manifold. My priorities: #1, it works. #2, it's cheap. I'm going to contact automotive junk yards to see if I can get an injector and O2 sensor for cheap. Who can talk to me about metalworking the intake? Oh--Swampy! Still got an old Ford O2 sensor? how about an old injector? (Message edited by Reuel on May 02, 2008) | ||
| Swampy |
Yes I have an O2 sensor, just PM me your address as its been awhile and I don't have it anymore. I would put the injector as near the head as possible, that way the fuel has less chance of pooling in the port, a little welding, a little machining would get a boss on the intake, It probably would be better(more room) on the side. A regular fuelly Sportster would work. | ||
| Reuel |
Talked to my brother last night. He said I'd probably do best to mount it on the other side of the carburetor. If I mount it pointing at the valve, and it isn't pointing quite right, the fuel won't mix well with the air, and I'll have all kinds of problems. It looks easier to mount it after the carburetor, too. | ||
| Berkshire |
"If I mount it pointing at the valve, and it isn't pointing quite right, the fuel won't mix well with the air, and I'll have all kinds of problems" Pointing it exactly at the back of the valve would certainly be best, but it doesn't have to be THAT exact. On cars they mount them on the intake, as close to the head as possible and leaning back (pointing downstream) as much as possible - but - it's a good 4" from the injector to the valve. If you pulled an injector out and looked thru the hole, you'd probably just see port floor. Here's a Blast port:  You could get a GREAT shot at the back of the valve from the top of the intake flange! (Message edited by berkshire on May 12, 2008) | ||
| Berkshire |
Rats! That wouldn't work, because of that big piece of the head that sticks out above the intake:  The red dot location might do it - drill a hole there, stick a welding rod thru and extend it down to the green dot. Slide the injector boss (off-the-shelf item) down over the rod to where it hits the manifold, keeping it aligned with the rod. Mark the manifold and remove a D or crescent-shaped area of material as needed to get the boss to fit in to a minimum depth, then repeat the process with a rod that is big enough to self-align the injector boss and fine-tune the fit, then weld it up and grind it pretty. | ||
| Berkshire |
hmmm... The way the injector would be leaned back away from the head, I bet if the underside of that that big sticking out piece were ground back a bit, then the injector could be put much closer to the head!  OK, a little more than that, but you get the idea... | ||
| Reuel |
Ok, you just illustrated what was floating around in my head. I have no welding skills of my own, but I know someone who does. Gotta find me a spare intake... |
