| Author | Message | ||
     Gearheaderiko |
Too loose a chain- causes noise, damage to chain guide, vibration and robs power. The 'advantage' of the XB primary cover is that you actually have an inspection hole to feel and 'measure' how tight the chain is and a solid (non spring loaded) adjuster shoe. You can also (in theory) find the tight spot on the chain to adjust there. Is it really better is a matter of debate and preference. They actually sell a set up to convert the XB solid mount style shoe to a spring loaded style shoe (just like the Blast). Is eyeballing the chain a better way to adjust than measuring with a torque wrench? Perfect would be a Blast with an inspection hole to feel the chain (IMHO). | ||
| Robi |
Sorry for the questions, but I spent a good part of the day reading as much as I could before asking repeat questions. Believe you me, I deleted a bunch of questions as I went along, but of course, new ones popped up in their places. -------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -------- To clarify: Reuel: In regards to how far to loosen the screw and the seepage: my understanding of this set up (without having taking everything apart), is that this Adjusting Screw goes up through the bottom of the Primary Cover and into where the boot and chain are. As it goes up through there, it’s actually going through the transmission fluid, and serves almost as a plug. In other words, I’m under the impression that if I were to take the screw totally out, fluid will drain out. Is this accurate? Or does the screw go somewhere else, in which case there is no possibility of drainage if I loosen it too much? The seepage does stop when I tighten it back up. I clean it up, and it stays dry. I don’t know if I may be just confusing myself more with these questions and I need to just try and ride, try and ride; but I am concerned because I recently changed the transmission fluid, and I really don’t want to accidentally drain fluid and have to take off the damn foot peg (though I may need to if I end up having to adjust the clutch). -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------ XB stuff – if it’s more than a cover swap, I’ll pass for now. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------ Are you trying to shift while it's sitting still? Yes. I need to ride around a bit. I was rushed when I did it, and did nothing last night. I was frustrated, and by not being able to shift through, my frustration led me to believe I did more damage. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------ Yes, normally grinds when coming to a stop (example, red light, or approaching my drive way). 20W50/15W50 synthetic oil? No. HD Transmission fluid. I used off brand motor oil, but for the transmission I got mixed signals when reading the forums. I took the safe route. I’ll review the Transmission sections again when it comes time for the next change to see if I get a better understanding of what’s recommended. | ||
| Berkshire |
You are correct - the primary chain, tensioner shoe, engine sprocket, and clutch are all enclosed in the "compartment" behind the primary cover, which is partly filled with oil so everything stays slick & happy. The drain plug and the tensoner both pass through holes in the bottom, so the oil will come out if either is removed - and when the lock nut on the adjuster is loosened, a bit of oil will seep out thru the threads... no worry - this makes it easier to turn the adjuster by hand! if you want to shift when it's sitting still, just rock it a little, or turn the back wheel with your left foot if it's off the ground. You don't have to do it at the same time you're shifting, you can turn, shift,turn,shift,turn,shift. 20w50 FULL Synth for both. (Message edited by berkshire on July 31, 2008) | ||
| Robi |
Thank you. I think it got it. I did it cold and off, to get an idea of where it should be touching like Ruell said. However, I did the sound portion by just starting it and doing it not so warm. Because I now had an idea of where to be, hearing the whirring noise came easier. I took it for a 30 minute spin and I could tell a difference immediately. Toward then end of my ride, it started shifting a little louder, so I'm wondering if it's because I didn't properly allow it to warm up. So when I got home, I did another sound adjustment. We'll see how it goes tomorrow. Thanks again for all the help. BTW: while I was down there, I found what was making the muffler so loud. It's now quiet (the rattle at least). 20W50 FULL Synth for both. 1. What do you mean by FULL? 2. To verify, you mean synthetic blends in both the transmission and the motor, correct? 3. Same brand, same oil for both? I was wondering about this, because it seems the term "oil" is used in discussions of both the transmission and the motor. | ||
| Swampy |
Robi, A 20W-50 Full Synthetic motor oil is used in both the engine and transmission. In contrast to a Blended 20W-50 motor oil(Part Synthetic and part conventional oil) Usually the Blended is less costly. I for instance use Castrol 20W-50 full synthetic in both the engine and transmission.(I got a deal on 15W-50 Mobil 1 so I use that in the transmission only) | ||
| Robi |
OK. I'm sold. I do it at my next change. | ||
| Robi |
This is the first I was able to ride since I adjusted the primary chain last week. For some reason the local weather exaggerates the possibilities of rain. www.weather.GOV is where I'm checking from now on. Anyhow, it still shifting "clunky," to me at least. I'm thinking of tightening it tonight when I get home . . . say 2 flats, then see how it rides tomorrow morning. Questions: 1. Am I right to assume that if it is still "clunky," that I locked it too close to the "box of rocks" sound? 2. Am I correct to adjust until the shifting is smoother? Or is it possible to over tighten the primary chain attempting to remedy something else? 3. (related to #2) Does anyone suspect the clutch? I have not adjusted it since I bought it, but was hoping to avoid the task until I next transmission fluid change. Thx | ||
| Ezblast |
Primary chain has nothing to do with the shifting clunky - don't tighten from adjustment - bad juju - try adjusting your clutch at the primary, and if that doesn't work - you could spend 50 bucks in parts and a day of your own basic labor and take your primary cover off and do the Shift Pawl adjustment - needless to say most just do the primary clutch adjustment and blow 3 dollars on an inspection cover gasket, however, it just clicks along if you do the shift pawl. EZ | ||
| Robi |
I will adjust the clutch at the primary. What do you mean "it just clicks along if you do the shift pawl?" (Message edited by robi on August 06, 2008) | ||
| Ezblast |
No hard shifting - they just just shift smoothly - it would also involve making sure your drum pins are the same length. EZ | ||
| Swampy |
Robi, How many miles are on your Blast? You have to remember that they will shift roughly until you have over 4,000 miles on them. And you don't want your primary chain too tight as it will pull the clutch basket causing the clutch disks to drag and that will cause clunky shifting. So what I would recommend is to adjust your primary chain towards the loose end of the spectrum, then adjust your internal clutch adjustment, then adjust your cable length, then ride it for a while. | ||
| Robi |
Miles: 9700 (or something, just checked but forget) I've been riding it for a couple of days and haven't adjusted anything yet. I was planning on doing it this week when the better half works an evening. I think me saying it's clunky throughout shifting might be an over statement. I think part of it is my inexperience, as the ugly sounding shifting is not 100% consistent. However, since buying the used bike, I have yet to adjust the clutch, so I will do as you recommend and keep you posted. | ||
| Robi |
I adjusted the clutch tonight, but am not going to be able to test ride it before work. I will take this opportunity to gripe about the foot peg arm in regards to the amount of work needed to inspect and adjust, and then the same amount of work in reverse to then test ride it. That said, I'm wondering if I should expect any problems in the morning or near future. I followed the instructions, but might have messed up at a step. You let slack in the cable. Turn that screw counter clockwise until it lightly seats, then back it off 1/4 turn clockwise. You are supposed to then put the spring and lock plate back, THEN take the slack out of the cable, and then squeeze the clutch 3 times. I took the slack out and squeezed w/o putting the spring and lock plate back first. I realized my mistake, so then started over, taking the slack out, turn until seating, and backing off 1/4 turn, THEN I replaced the spring and lock nut, THEN took the slack out and pull the clutch 3 times, keeping 1/8 inch play. Am I OK that I did it over again? Or should I expect my first missed step to have caused some problem I'm going to have to fix? Thank you | ||
| Ezblast |
You might be required to do the Oak tree dance, but you should be ok. EZ | ||
| Robi |
Do I need to know what the Oak tree dance is? | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
At this point, yes! Its dancing 3 times round the Big Oak tree, naked, at midnight. Wards of bad mojo (such as 'fixing' your bike and not test riding it before riding to work) and other Blast gremlins. Mostly ceremonious in nature, but most here wouldnt take the chance of not doing it. There's no way to tell what would've happened if you didnt do the dance. PS Now you know why some of us use the shortcut method of changing the trans fluid. Pulling the Y-frames are a PIA and not really necessary for just changing the fluid. | ||
| Robi |
I'll have to find an Oak. Think there's one in my front yard, but I don't know much about trees, nor about following instructions very well. I road today, about 12 miles to work, without "incident," but I question the integrity of my adjustment. Either it stayed the same, or I made it worse. Denial is only making me think it stayed the same. Before it seemed like morning shifting was smoother, and shifting in the afternoon seems louder. During work, the bike sits in the sun for half of the day (unless I move it from space to space to follow the shade, which I can't because of assigned parking). I'm guessing this is because the fluid is less viscous when hotter. Is this correct? Is this to be expected? When I had the cover off last night, it actually ran out the inspection area Bike was upright on a rear stand. There might have been a slight angle, but it was definitely higher above the teeth than when I previously filled it. When I changed it previously, I filled just above the bottom visible tooth. It was technically impossible to fill it with a full quart, because I spilled some during the procedure (not necessary to say why, but as usual, failed to fully follow instructions). Is it normally for the fluid to seem to "expand" with use or heat? As for shifting today, I'm not sure. If it's worse, it's not a whole lot worse, but it's definitely noticeable. The worst shifting has always been from 1st to 2nd. It seems like it wants to chew a few pieces of dog food through the process. Higher gears, no grind (then or now), but sounds clunkier now. I realize part might be user error, so I am constantly trying to tweak how I shift, and the results to change somewhat, but it's consistent enough that I'm guessing I need to do something in addition. Ezblast: you had mentioned doing the shift pawl adjustment. Do you recommend that next? Or do these symptoms and what I did last night with the spring lead to other conclusions? | ||
| Ezblast |
Drain just a tad of fluid - to bring it back to the teeth of the gear - that could solve your problems. However, if it is really hard shifting and no other adjustments help, then yes I recommend the shift Pawl adjustment. Ride it a bit though to see if lessening the fluid to the proper height - the gear teeth - helps. EZ | ||
| Robi |
Does the temperature of the fluid affect it's volume? If I remember correctly, V is inversely proportional T, or something like that. Should I check/drain hot or cold? | ||
| Ezblast |
Cold is fine. You could suck it out with a sucker, or just tip it out the side and then check till good and then clean up - I wouldn't bother draining from the bottom because then you'd probably have to re-add fluid. EZ | ||
| Robi |
Will do. I have a 60cc syringe and feeding tube I picked up for this and for my Jeep. | ||
| Robi |
What is the Outer Cable Conduit? What is the Ferrule? I can't tell from the diagram. Has anyone test ridden their bike with the Y frame off, so if additional adjustments are required, you don't have to go through removal? Was going to try the shortcut of just loosening the frame, then taking the cover off to get some fluid out, but then the hex piece fell into the frame. So I had to take it off. Since taking it off, I'm thinking of readjusting the clutch while I'm in there. But this time, I want to know exactly what the conduit and ferrule are, so I know I'm doing it right. | ||
| Berkshire |
The conduit is the "housing" part - the hollow outer tube that doesn't move. The "cable" is actually just the inner part that moves back & forth inside when you squeeze the lever, though the term is commonly used in reference to the whole assembly. The ferrules are the little end pieces on each end of the inner cable. | ||
| Robi |
OK. Test rode it. If I have to change anything, it'll have to wait until tomorrow. Tonight I too the Y frame off. Siphoned some gear oil out, to just above the bottom tooth. Since I had the syringe, I'd say it was around 100-120cc's taken out. I adjusted the clutch again, following more precisely the instructions from the service manual. Last night I primarily used the instructions from www.bcrider.com (or some website like that). I didn't feel safe trying to ride it w/o the Y frame, so I put it all together. And road about 20 miles. Shifting. Just about the same. I'd say it's better than it was today, and closer to what it was before, but of course different than ever. I don't know if it's because I'm listening to it now, or what, but it sounds so damn loud. I'm still getting a little bit of gargle from 1st to 2nd, and clunks everywhere else. Maybe I'm shifting at the wrong speeds. Clutch lever feels different now. This is my first motorcycle, so I don't know if before was correct, or now is. The friction zone used to feel right in the middle, and engagement was about 3/4 out. Now it seems like the friction zone and engagement are further out. When fully engaged, in 1st gear in the parking lot, it rides with a shudder. Otherwise riding was "fine" in that I got up to 55 or so, through most of the gears. I'm not sure the clutch handle thing should be like that. Does any of this explanation make sense? EZ - I'm guessing I need to adjust the shifter pawl now? Can I get away with doing it in a week or so? If not, I will try to do it this weekend. Any special parts, tools I will need? The clutch handle. If this is abnormal, is it something I can remedy at the adjuster screw w/o having to remove the Y frame again? | ||
| Ezblast |
If its just loud, however the shift is firm, then it is fine - it will need over 10,000 miles and a Shift pawl adjustment some day - and then it will just click - advice - don't open up the primary - till you have all the nescessary parts to put ot back together: primary gasket, Detent plate, Detent clip, primary inspection gasket, shifter shaft seal, clutch cable o ring, drain o ring, red locktite - etc - you'd have to make your own specialized HD tool, but a 12 dollar trip to Lowes or Home Depot and 30 min. with a file has it ready to go - you need some big ass sockets - I went to sears and bought mine - lol - a good afternoon of work - because you'll be doing a few other things as well - for preventitive medicine - chamfering the stator wire protection plate edges - lol - so ironic, sizing and equalizing the size of all the drum pins - gently, etc. - stuff to do while your in there replacing the lower primary tension shoe for example - getting to and undoing those two bolts takes about 15 min. more of time - no biggie - the chain,rotor, and clutch basket come off as a unit - and then its all right there ready for you to prolong and improve the life of your primary. PS I shift very near the top of my rpm limit, never lower than 5000 - if she's working, she's not jerking, use the clutch more for slow stuff, and adjust it at the cable adjuster to bring it in a little. EZ (Message edited by ezblast on August 22, 2008) | ||
| Robi |
Honestly, that makes my head spin and my heart palpitate. I can't even get this clutch adjustment down. But alas, all of this seemed insurmountable when I first started. I'll save it for another day of course, especially since my break is officially over after this weekend. QUESTIONS 1. Working vs. jerking - Do you mean the shudder I am getting in 1st gear, with clutch fully engaged? Or do you mean, a jerk/wheel chirp/lunge when engaging the various gears? 2. Using the clutch for slow stuff, and shifting very near top rmp - Do you mean when upshifting you don't even use the clutch, and use the clutch only for down shifting? Do you mean at fast acceleration you don't use the clutch, but do for city riding? 3. For the cable adjustment: Will I be tightening it (taking slack out), or loosening it (increasing the slack)? (or do I have that all reversed) In other words, do I want more or less play in the handle? And as always, thank you very much for all the help. | ||
| Ezblast |
I am referring to the 1st gear for the shudder, engage the clutch a bit when going slow in first or any other gear, don't shift the bike if you are going slow in a gear, rev that baby up, then use the clutch to shift to the next gear - you are shaking and shuddering because you are going to slow for the chosen gear you are in - down shift, or if in first feather your clutch. You'll want to tighten it just a bit at the cable adjuster. EZ | ||
| Robi |
Thx | ||
| Ezblast |
I practice all the time at this stop sign from going to work - I rarely have to put a foot out - even for the sec or two or three of stopping - that's with traffic in front of me - thank God - motorcycles are allowed to share lanes with other vehicles in Cali - but I usually cut traffic only at lights, never stop signs - they are good slow handling practice - lol - Especially turns. And cruising I keep it close to at least 5000rpms so that I can go up or down in no time - if I need to - I've been guilty - usually not paying attention for some reason. Practice - do small errands, and explore your hood - lol - take it easy and enjoy the ride - later you can ride it like ya stole it - ;0) - if you want - the bikes live up to their name. EZ | ||
| Robi |
I'm somewhat ashamed and feel bad, especially considering how much everyone on here is willing to help, but I've made the decision to take the bike to the dealer for this shifting issue. My reasoning: I am new to all this, and my explanations fall short of perfect, as does my skill. I'm going to have it professionally adjusted so I know how it's supposed to feel, and that will help me in future maintenance. I think my previous explanation might have been inaccurate, because of my misuse of the word "engaged." When the clutch handle is completely released, this means that the clutch is engaged, or should be. I was saying that the clutch was engaged when I had the handle fully pulled in. I test rode the bike 10 miles after adjustment, than 50 yesterday (because I rode across town off highway to look at some used saddle bags – no go by the way). Here’s what’s going on. Clutch handle. The clutch is not really engaging until the handle is pretty much fully released. I can’t help but feel that it needs some more room in the release direction. In other words, the way it felt before I f***ed it up, was that it was engaging at about mid release. So with that memory of how it felt -- through the friction zone and to what seemed to be full engagement – it seems that what took place starting in mid release is starting at almost full release. Though I can’t explain it in professional terms, this is why I think it needs more release room . . . if any of that makes sense. I'm thinking that adjusting the cable at the adjuster screw will either put more play in the handle or take it out, in which case the point of engagement will still end up right near full handle release, just with more play in the handle. Is this accurate? Shifting. I’m almost embarrassed to ride it is so loud, and now a bit more gargled, not just at 1st-2nd, but other spots too. Also, as I start to go at stop lights and such, the 1st gear feels like a clunking as I try to finesse the friction zone to not have to put my feet down. This never happened before. The clunk feels like it’s coming right from the bottom of the bike. I hope you all understand my frustration as a novice, and forgive my throwing in the towel on this particular symptom. Like I said, and as evident above, I’m just going to dish out the money I don’t have to take the risk of someone else doing it wrong instead of me. But I’m optimistic that the mechanic will actually fix it properly, rather than messing it up. Then I will know how it’s supposed to feel and sound, and then I can be done with this thread, at least until next maintenance interval. On another note: Anyone know where to start, or how to participate in working to get your home state to allow late splitting? |
