| Author | Message | ||
     Dirt |
Those failures can most likely be traced to improper installation. Cyclone, I've experienced 3 failures. The first set failed with the original tire still on. Rear axle had never be touched or re-torqued since installed at the factory. Ok, maybe it was torqued wrong at the factory, but when I posted about this way back, "Anonymous" chimed in and stated that all torque readings are logged by computer at the factory. Court even PM'd me for my VIN number. I suppose he wanted to verify my settings. Never heard back so I'm not sure what became of it. Anyway, I had the bearings replaced under warranty and had a new tire put on at the same time. Next set failed while that second tire was still on. Only person to torque the axle was the dealership tech. The most recent failure occurred with the 3rd rear tire. I'll admit that this time I replaced the tire and torqued the rear axle. I have a service manual and torqued it per the instructions. 3 sets of tires and 3 sets of bearings. Each tire installed by a different person. Highly unlikely in my mind that all 3 people did an improper install. It's funny, when the failures first cropped up, the most frequent response from folks on this board was "you must have torqued the rear axle wrong". Court even said (sorry Court, have to call you out on this one) that there was nothing wrong with the bearings, people are just installing the rear tire wrong. I see now where he is somewhat concerned and looking for alternatives to the orange sealed OEMs. I'm sure Buell didn't go through all the trouble to issue a new part simply because people were installing the old one incorrectly. Anyhow, I hope bearing failures are behind me now as I have the new black sealed bearings installed. Time will tell. | ||
| Court |
Not sure I said that but I'll take your word for it . . . and there's not "calling me out" . . . I am just curious to find out all I can. To date . . . I have yet to see anything that looks like the real cause. I've seen lots of guessing including pressure washing, cheap bearings, improper installation, torque specs not followed and belt tension. I'm not convinced that any of them alone or in concert are the actual cause. I'm a curious guy. | ||
| Dirt |
Court, no disrespect intended with my earlier post. It's just that I remember the post to this day because people sometimes take what you say to be absolute gospel from the factory. Let me explain, The day after I read your post I was browsing a Harley forum that has a Buell section. There was a post about ULY wheel bearing failures and someone posted that there were no problems with the bearings, just people not following procedure when installing the rear wheel. The wording of the post was almost identical to what you had stated. I recognized the poster as one who belongs to BadWeb. You always talk about the problem with the Internet because one person can state a problem they are having with their bike and all of a sudden (almost overnight) it becomes widespread issue with every bike. Your statement reminded me of this only in reverse. Court, whether you know it or not you wield the power. I still read posts to this day stating that the problem is due exclusively to improper torque of the rear wheel. I have to wonder if this is an offshoot of your original post. Once again, no disrespect just an observation. | ||
| 2_spuds |
I didn't see a tolerance figure in the service manual so I use the number from the sm for my 03 sportster which has bearings almost twice the size and weighs about ten lbs. more than the uly. They say to replace bearings at .002"side play. I replace them at every tire change but I check them with a dial indicator just to see any wear.  Measured this way hasn't indicated any wear at the intervals I'am changing at. However with the wheel removed and the bearings checked individually the one on the disc side has checked out at or above the .002" limit I use.  No rust or water were present and they still had plenty of grease in them. I replaced the stock spacer with a steel one two years ago since the stock spacer I had would shrink about .008" under the stock torque specs.  Even changing them at every tire change I carry spares and some tools to change them on the road, it's really not that hard to do. I would love to be able to buy an aftermarket wheel with tapered bearings that was made in America. | ||
| Court |
>>>Once again, no disrespect just an observation. No disrespect taken. You write well and are concise. That type of dialogue helps. believe What I was looking for was any reason to believe that wheel bearing failures were related to something that occurred (something like the 1997 "E" clip recall) as a result of procedures performed after the bike was built. As an EXAMPLE If I started finding that ALL wheel bearing failures occurred ONLY after tire changes and folks were not properly torquing the rear axle . . . I might chase down that path. One thing that helps (and the reason I would request your VIN) is that, as those who have toured the factory have seen, each tool on the Buell Assembly Line is connected to a serial cable. I could, with your VIN, explore the precise torque, the sequence that each part went on the bike, who did it, how many degrees of rotation from start of rotation till final torque, etc. If . . .and be mindful that EVERYTHING I am saying here is general discussion to provide a flavor for what I might look for . . . I found that 98% of wheel bearing failures occurred on bikes built on certain days and that Jeff was the one installing the axle at station #3 . . . then I'd begin my "part, person or process" quest to find out the root cause. What it a bad part? Are there any patterns related to lot numbers from vendors as, for example, with 1125R turn signals. Can I find a person who perhaps needs "re-trained". What if EVERY bearing that failed was installed by the same person and there was NEVER a failure of ANY other bearings? (again, just trying to illustrate the logic methodology) What about the process? Does it matter how fast the wrench turns? How many revs till torque? What if the ONLY wheel bearings to ever failed were when Jeff installed them AFTER doing something else out of sequence? Somewhere . . . in the good old spirit of the Ford Crown Victoria trunk lights . . there is an answer. I appreciate your comments an input. So many good thing have come from owner comments in the world of Buell that you'd not believe it. Court | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Maybe I'm just lucky or my Oct 05' build ULY is an anomaly but it just doesn't have the problems that I keep reading about here. I never pressure wash this bike, I just wipe it off. I've got 19,000 miles on it and have the original fan, belt, connectors, no fuel pump failures, doesn't burn oil, original air filter ( I wash it once/yr), no bearing failures (grease and coat with never-seize), and only one TPS reset at the 10,000 mile mark. I did have a fouled rear plug a long time ago but that was caused by blipping and has never happened since. Day before 09' Homecoming my turn signals wouldn't work and found it to be a broken ground wire at the steering stem and changed out a burned out low beam bulb at the same time. Better than a year ago I pulled the primary cover off for worry about the crank shaft bolt might be loose but found it to be just fine. My mind was eased over that problem. I did have a latch failure on one of the hard bags and the dealer replaced it for free (Court helped on that a bit). I notice that many Uly riders are changing out bearings that haven't failed for worry that they might fail. Hope that eases your mind but I'll just grease mine once per season and see how long they last. Before heading to Sturgis this August I'll pull the wheels and inspect and grease all the bearings and feel pretty confident that they'll be just fine. I'll also wash that air filter again. Just a guess but I think that some folks cause their own problems by washing their bikes to darned much. All that soap and whatever can't be good on bearings and electrical connectors and the like. Just a thought. I'd much rather a bike that looks like it's ridden than a bike that's got soap in it's ears. Oh yeah, my bike still has the original doohicky that holds the clutch cable away from the hot engine. I just went out and checked and it's just dandy. The one thing I don't quite understand is that Court is a personal friend of Erik. Can't you get the skinny from him on this bearing thing? I mean you wouldn't even have to tell us about it but you could at least ease your own mind on the matter. I'm just sayin. | ||
| Xbimmer |
I'm not sure how much different the seal design between the NTN's and KBC's can be, but I'd like to know. I was very tempted to pull a seal from a new KBC when I swapped them all out recently. Other than the (alleged) electric motor grease in the NTN's, I'm not understanding how a $16 Korean bearing is superior to a $40 Taiwanese NTN, but I'd like to know more about that also. I just trusted BMC when they went to the KBC's and followed suit. My original NTN's lasted over 50K. I always torqued by the book, and started pulling the seals and greasing them somewhere around the 20K mark. The only problems I've seen were in the last 10K when one front and one rear bearing started showing dark grease upon inspection, due I'm guessing to the frequent r&r of the seals and age hardening the sealing lips. I've never been convinced it was the NTN at the root of the problem, although I suspect that if it's true there's electric motor grease in them then their use in an automotive application might hasten their demise. I've always suspected poor wheel machining and assembly first, or out of spec spacers. Until Buell comes out with a retrofit better seal kit (not likely) or at least a final word on what has been the problem, or a halt to the failures with black KBC's, I'm going to keep with greasing maintenance. | ||
| Jlnance |
# I'm curious about where the moisture comes from - water intrusion or condensation. I can control intrusion, not condensation. I can't figure that out either, but something Vern said gives me an idea. I don't think it is condensation, it would take a lot of humid air to deposit much water, and there doesn't seem to be a way to flow much air into the hub. But it could still be related to temperature. The Uly wheel hub gets very hot when you ride the bike. Touch it sometime after a ride and it will burn you. When the air in the hub is heated, it will expand and force it's way out, equalizing the pressure. If the hub gets wet, as it would do in significant rain, it will cool and the air inside will contract. This will create a partial vacuum inside the hub, and it will try and suck air back inside to equalize the pressure again. Since the wheel is wet, it will suck in water with the air. That is a theory, I won't claim it is fact at this point. If someone wanted to test, a wheel could be taken and verified to be dry. Ride the bike and get the wheel hot, then immerse it in water over the hub. Remove the wheel and see if there is water inside. Then repeat the immersion with a cold wheel and verify that there is not. I should note that not all bearing failures appear to have to do with moisture. It is a frustrating problem I have been following for a long time. There do not seem to be any clear causes. | ||
| Jphish |
I want to trust the Uly - never had another bike like it & still enjoy her iconic ways. However... I've (like many of you) put 10s of thousands of miles on a motorcycle and NEVER changed bearings! Including my 650KLR which I thrash down on Baja dirt / sand roads and never had a problem. Now we're talking about 5K bearing changes for the Uly?! I did switch to the KBCs @ 10K just as a precaution - the old NTNs still looked good but I know folks who have done the regrease every 5K and still had a failure. I wasnt willing to gamble - though the KBCs still arent a PROVEN fix - not been time tested yet. I hope the KBCs solve the problem - if not Eric & co need to consider some serious re-engineering. Heading out on a 5K trip next month - will report any catastrophy's. | ||
| Jomartijr |
I am not a bearing engineer or bearing specialist but I did some engineering work in solving a wear issue with an electromechanical switch assembly by enlisting the aid of Dupont in testing, successfully, some of their Krytox GPL series grease. So, on an assumption that a quality synthetic grease might at least do some good, if not solve the problem, I removed the orange seals from the wheel bearings on my low miles 2007 Uly, flushed all the blue oem grease out with WD-40, and air blasts, final rinsed with mineral spirits and applied GPL 226 grease. I did this partly to extend bearing life and the rest out of curiosity. Honestly, this might be of no value whatsoever, sort of a shotgun approach without having defined the source of the problem. The failure cause may have very little if anything to do with lubrication failure but hey, it can't hurt. And I, like many others have had multiple bikes none of which have had wheel bearing issues and so am trying an unconventional effort at solving an unusual problem. I filled the dry bearings about 65% full, total grease used was about 10 cc total for all 4 bearings. | ||
| Court |
That is interesting. | ||
| Mad_doctor |
I've got a question about both, front and rear bearings. I know the rear bearing is a 6006 bearing, What number is the front bearing on an XT? I know the part numbers are different in the parts book, but I don't hear from anyone having to replace them.I would think (if it is a heat versus moisture problem), the front would also have problems. I will try to check the load factor/speed/roller passing frequency (if I can on the 6006). I just have to see if I can get the information. | ||
| Cyclone8u |
Another dynamic that needs to be ascertained is how many failures have there been? According to BadWeb stats, there are 1300 users that list an XB12X in their profile. Of these how many have had a failure? How many failures? It seems that a substantial number that have had failures, have had multiple failures. But without someone laying it out in a spreadsheet, this would be hard to verify. Others have changed out the bearings preemptively, would these have failed eventually or would they have lived out a normal service life? Since they are probably long since been discarded, no one will ever know. It would seem that in order for Buell to get in front of this problem they would have had to be more proactive when this problem started becoming less than an anomaly. Requesting dealers do regular inspections of wheel bearings when a bike is in for any service, and send the faulty ones back to the factory. Likewise for the owner serviced bikes, just request that the owner return the old set of bearings to the dealer - regardless of why the owner was changing them. Being able to look at the failed units and determine failure mode (water intrusion, lubrication failure, material failure, etc.) and link with V.I.N. data would have been the only way to come up with an accurate assessment. Unfortunately, much data has already been lost. But, then again - until we either have failures start showing up with the new bearings or this problem gradually fades into the history books with the isolator failures of yesteryear - we may all be wringing our hands for not. | ||
| Jphish |
Cyclone - That could work...but many of us have peeled the seals and repacked with grease. (of course repacking an inherently defective bearing is only going to forestall the inevitable) But in spite of the prophylactic treatment, some have still had bearings fail. If it's not water intrusion, it points to defective NTN bearings. Have no idea of the QC for those units. Hope the KBCs fix the problem. | ||
| Bails |
I've not been here for awhile but I have replaced my bearings at about 15,000 klms. Was done under warranty with new rear wheel. I lent my bike to a Mechanical Engineer friend of mine, who pointed out that in his opinion failure was due to the design being flawed. He said that with no cover over the bearings then ingress of water and dirt would sure to occur, and in fact this was the case with my failure, water ingress. I now repack my bearings and have had no further problems. | ||
| Blake |
No cover? You mean like virtually every other motorcycle on the road? | ||
| Jlnance |
Mad_dr - 6006 on the rear, 6005 on the front. That is for all XB and IRC buells, not just the XT. | ||
| Hughlysses |
You mean like virtually every other motorcycle on the road? Blake- at least some (can't say if it's many or most) motorcycles have a separate seal outside of the sealed bearings. I recently helped a friend change the tires on his BMW sport tourer and noticed this. Others have posted that this is standard practice on dirt bikes. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I would think (if it is a heat versus moisture problem), the front would also have problems. I will try to check the load factor/speed/roller passing frequency (if I can on the 6006). I just have to see if I can get the information. Mad_doctor- I would think the main source of heat to the rear bearings is the rear brake rotor. If that's true, the front bearings would be subjected to much less heat due to the rotor configuration. The main difference in the front wheel is the large openings into the wheel hub which would provide both drainage and ventilation. The front wheel can't hold water inside the hub like the rear can. | ||
| Cyclone8u |
That could work...but many of us have peeled the seals and repacked with grease. (of course repacking an inherently defective bearing is only going to forestall the inevitable) Exactly my point. So many have decided to take the problem into their own hands that it would be next to impossible to get good data on the situation. And that's just the people that post here. How many other lurkers or non BadWeb readers out there have had the problem, fixed it themselves, and no one - including Buell - is the wiser. Yet had Buell gotten in front of the problem when it became more than just a random anomaly, they would have probably gathered more data than they needed by now - just sayin'. But as I stated, maybe they already are on the problem, hence the new bearing design, and we are just wasting our breath. I guess until a service bulletin or recall gets issued stating this as a fact, none of us will know for sure. In the mean time, it seems that the people that have switched to the new bearing have yet to have a failure. At least that seems to be the consensus. So it would seem to me that right now, that would be the most likely thing I would do when it's time to change my orange sealed ones out. (Message edited by cyclone8u on June 28, 2009) | ||
| Jlnance |
I would think the main source of heat to the rear bearings is the rear brake rotor. If that's true, the front bearings would be subjected to much less heat due to the rotor configuration. I think their are two major sources of heat. One is the oil in the swingarm, I'm guessing this is the major one. The other is the belt. It either comes from heat being transferred from the transmission drive gear onto the belt, or just friction inside the belt making it hot, I'm not sure which one. But touch the belt sometime after a long ride, it's very hot. | ||
| Jlnance |
I replaced the stock spacer with a steel one two years ago since the stock spacer Any rust problems? | ||
| Crusty |
I'm the guy who asked Abe Askenazi about the wheel bearing problem last year at Homecoming. Buell has been aware of the problem, and has addressed it. As people have noted, nobody has reported a failure with the new bearings. In the past, when Buell has addressed a problem, the problem has gone away. My NTN (Orange) bearings died, I put in the upgraded KBC (Black) bearings. Now, I'll just ride the piss out of the bike and see if they got it right. I'm betting they did. | ||
| Rwven |
They may be aware, but will they issue a recall? Or do I have to break down somewhere to get new bearings? Speaking of recalls, I have not even gotten an official notification about the windscreen fastener recall. I replaced the first set on my dime (with the prerecall fasteners). It's a moot point anyway as I now run the Palmer mounts, but still.... (Message edited by rwven on June 28, 2009) | ||
| Court |
Windscreen is a bit off topic but here's your recall notification letter . . . let's get that out of the way.  There is a lot of interesting information here. I hope we can keep the effort focused. I'd like to learn something. | ||
| Court |
Too big to attach. If you need it, drop me a note. | ||
| Motorfish |
This here is my situation: The orange seal bearing, on the brake disc side, failed. Hub was full of water. I was riding in a lot of rain, no off road water crossings. I had a belt replaced under warranty, it was walking off the rear pulley.Dealer did the work. I replaced a rear tire, myself, and put the wheel back on myself, by the book. I have to look into my records (tough to find, as I just moved) as to when the belt and tire was replaced to see who was the last person to install the wheel. The bike was serviced by the dealer at 10K. Bearing failure was at 13K. I do not wash the bike a lot, maybe twice a year, and don`t power wash. Although I do think that pumping grease into the hub is a pretty good idea, I don`t want to "take matters into my own hands" yet. If these are sealed bearings, shouldn`t they seal against the grease pumped into the hub? I am bringing the bike to the dealer for repair, and I hope when he ordered the bearings they are the black seal type. I hope the factory doesn`t send out the orange seal ones. I would think they took all of them off the shelves.I will try to put a little never seize on the seal, but feel a little nervous about never seize around a brake disc. Of course I will lay a ton on it on. I hope my data helps, Court, or anyone else. I thinks the right thing to do is to have another seal before the bearing, as discussed earlier. Maybe Buell could make a redesigned wheel, and offer it to Uly riders as an "heavy duty off-road" wheel, for free, or as a fairly priced upgrade. I like free. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Motorfish, I'm certain others will concur that there is nothing to worry about when applying never-seize over the bearing seal. It has been no problem whatsoever on my bike. I just went out and looked and it does not migrate out to the braking part of the rotor. It stays put. At least I can speak for Permatex Anti-seize and what I see on my bike and I've been greasing my bearings and coating the seal with Permatex since 2006. Sure, that Permatex will gather dust on it but that is dust that will not make it into your bearings. Apparently keeps out the water too because my bearings haven't show moisture the 3 times I've pop'd the seals for adding grease and I've ridden in plenty of rain. No water crossings on my bike, so I can't speak to that. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Although I do think that pumping grease into the hub is a pretty good idea, I don`t want to "take matters into my own hands" yet. If these are sealed bearings, shouldn`t they seal against the grease pumped into the hub? Motorfish- Etennuly has posted that if he had to do it over again, he'd remove the inner seals from the bearings before installing them. That way, fresh grease would be pushed into the bearings from the hub, which would tend to push any contaminants out of the bearings through the outer seals. The seals can be removed from the bearings fairly easily with a needle or O-ring pick. Several guys periodically remove the outer seals on their bearings and push in a little fresh grease as preventative maintenance. | ||
| Hughlysses |
BTW- if we really want to try to collect statistical data on this, wouldn't a new thread is warranted? Ideally, we'd get every Uly owner on Badweb to post if they've had rear wheel bearing problems, what they did about it, what year model their bike is, etc. Something like 08Uly created for the fuel mileage data would be perfect: http://www.njdot.us/buell/ulydata.php For instance, I never had a failure, but when I changed the rear tire at ~8000 miles, the bearings felt extremely rough and notchy. I replaced them with Koyo bearings and they're still OK at ~19000 miles. |
