| Author | Message | ||
     Motorfish |
Well, add me to the list. My 06, with 13k miles, crapped a left rear wheel bearing.Had to U-Hual it home 275 miles, since no dealers in the area had any bearings instock.I was in Hew Hampshire. After all the reading I have done here, I am just going to bring it to the dealer and let them replace them with the black seal bearings, hoping that Buell CS may help me out.??? I am capable of doing it myself, but before I take matters into my own hands, I give them a try.It sounds like even a higher quality bearing doesn`t help all that much. It looks like drilling drain holes in the wheel is pretty important, since a huge amount of rusty water came out of my hub. Has anyone tried coating the inside of one bearing with grease(installed) and shooting some spray foam in the hub? If you let it dry, then cut out where the opposite bearing goes, and then installed it, it may keep out the water. But if you think about it once the seal lets water pass, I would think, it`s just a matter of time before the bearing is a pile. Ceramic bearing look pretty tough, but are expensive. Then there is the belt tension issue. Does anyone have a spring loaded idler pulley, that is "mileage tested". I don`t do any water crossings but tour on the bike and it`s been through a lot of rain. I`m sure everyone is getting sick of this subject, but I not sure which is the best way to avoid this expensive "adventure" again. Thanks for any input,folks, great site. | ||
| Court |
Should be no problem getting them taken care of. I am unconvinced that belt tension is related. Could be, but there is no evidence. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Motorfish- for future reference, the rear wheel bearing crosses over to the same bearing used on a whole bunch of ATVs. If you ever get in a bind on the road, you can probably find some at a Japanese motorcycle/ATV dealer. Here's a thread I posted last year: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/398976.html You may also find them on the shelf at an industrial bearing supplier. | ||
| Court |
What have we decided is the "best" bearing? I think I'll just order a couple sets to keep in the Ulysses. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Court- there've been many threads here discussing the subject. SKF makes the most expensive replacement (other than ceramics) you can find. OTOH there was a discussion that some SKFs are still made in Sweden or elsewhere in Europe while others are made in Asia or South America and are lower quality. The thought was that your best bet is to "look before you buy" and try to get European made SKFs. I've got ~10k miles on a set of Koyos who are the bearing supplier for Toyota automobiles. They're about half the price of the SKFs IIRC. I've been keeping a close eye on them and they were still smooth as silk at the last tire change (~2000 miles ago). Starting mid-2008 Buell changed to a black seal bearing made by KBC in Korea, replacing the orange seal bearings made by NTN in China. I don't think we've seen a failure of these bearings posted yet. That's what I'm planning on going with the next time I need a set unless something better turns up. | ||
| David_e |
I just replaced mine bearings with some orange sealed versions made in Japan. They were a little pricey. I bought them at an industrial bearing supplier. | ||
| Crusty |
I posted on this thread last night, and the post has disappeared! Why does that happen? It's not the first time. Anyway, I put the new "Black Seal" KBC bearings in my rear wheel last night. The NTNs that came out were rusted junk. There was also a few ounces of water in the hub. It was a straightforward job. The KBCs are reasonably priced at $16.75/ea ($33.50/pair)before discount. The part # is: E0005 02A8B. | ||
| Court |
>>>Court- there've been many threads here discussing the subject. Correct, I've read all those threads. Suffice to say there is no general consensus. I've no concern about the cost of the ceramic bearings but do recall a thread where someone suggested they too presented a new set of problems. I'll keep looking. Just wanted to see if any consensus had emerged. It obviously appears not. I'm still curious as to what the rot cause is and what the best resolution is. | ||
| Jlnance |
Court - I have followed the bearing threads closely. You are correct, there is no general consensus. I replaced my original bearings (which were fine) at 28k miles, with Koyo bearings. Those failed 14k miles later. I replaced those with SKF bearings, which I only got to ride a few thousand miles before I traded that Uly in. I think the best bet at this point is to go with the 09 Buell bearings. I'm not seeing any reports of failures (though they are still newish) and Buell has data that we don't have. The last time I looked at ceramic bearings, they were extraordinarily expensive. For that kind of money, I think you could actually buy a new rear wheel assembly, which would be a frightfully nice thing to have around. | ||
| Court |
I'm going to get a spare set of wheels and tires and I am considering treating the rear wheel bearings like a 10,000 mile maintenance item until I know more. Do you have a link for the ceramic bearings? I recall reading that there was some problem using them. If I recall they were like $800? Are those the right ones? | ||
| Court |
Found them. http://www.woodcraft-cfm.com/Scripts/prodList.asp? idCategory=12660 | ||
| Hughlysses |
Interesting- I helped a friend (former Uly rider) change the tires on his BMW a couple of weekends ago. His wheels had sealed ball bearings like the Uly, but the wheels have separate seals mounted outside the bearings in the wheel. I've seen several people post that this is common with a whole lot of bikes, especially dirt bikes. Someone posted earlier they were working on adapting a separate seal to fit the Uly wheel; it'd be interesting to see if that could be worked out. BTW- here's a specific listing for ceramic hybrid bearings (ceramic balls, stainless steel races) to fit the Uly; $90 a pop: http://www.bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=product&i d=8034&n=SMR6006C-2YS/C3 Here's a listing for full-ceramic bearings: http://www.bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=product&i d=14545&n=6006-LL/T9/C3 On sale for only $119 each! (Message edited by hughlysses on June 26, 2009) | ||
| Motorfish |
Thanks for all the info. I was looking for a general consensus, and I will go with the dealer installing the newer black seal bearings. Do I have to specify this my dealer, because I already ordered them. What about drilling holes in my hub? If the seals don`t leak, there shouldn`t be any water in there. Would condensation built up? Thanks again for all the input | ||
| Motorfish |
I also read about someone possibly coming in up with secondary seal,like on dirt bikes and I think would definitely help. Since this bike was designed to be ridden off road, I should of had 2 seals in the first place. Anyone hear of this "second seal development? | ||
| Hughlysses |
See post by skyclad here: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=142838&post=1493655#POST1493655 | ||
| Bigdaddy |
Semi-sidebar here: I've found that since I installed a set of Dark Horse Moto sliders on the rear I do not have the water accumulation. It's not by design, but it is a fact. I was actually thinking that a big rubber o-ring on both sides would be even better. Back to the bearing discussion -- the black seals have not failed after much abuse FWIW. | ||
| Jphish |
I preemptively switched to the black KBC bearings (front & rear) on my 08 Uly with 10K mi. Riding in the NW rain country, I have reservations about drilling holes and providing a pathway for water & crud to invade the innards. After installing I just coat the bearings with antiseize, pushing it into the spaces between the meeting places of the bearing, axle & hub, then wiping off excess. The old NTNs still looked good @ 10K after my 5K tire change, regreasing & antiseize treatment. But just didn't trust the integrity of the bearing enough to leave 'em in. Not sure this is the "fix" but at least gives me the illusion of reliability. Time will tell. | ||
| Etennuly |
I too have reservations about drilling the hub. I feel that at least most of the water in my hub was from condensation. The hub gets pretty warm during a ride. Dip that in cold water from creek crossings or rain and it can make for condensation. That condensation has no way out, thus the vent hole idea. My feeling is that if it is going to be drilled for venting you would need to go large, as in how the front wheel is structured. The problem there in is the strength of the rear hub will be compromised. I argue that small vent holes can allow as much water and fine dust/mud into the hub, as it would work to allow it to dry out. That was the reasoning behind my filling the hub with marine type grease, aside from easily being able to pump some fresh grease through the bearings. For the first 33,000 miles I did the anti-sieze on the seals and coat the outside of the axle to bearing mating area. I also checked the bearings each time the tire was off and repacked the bearings with new grease. It still failed. I got 33,000 on the originals with due care. It will be interesting to see how this second set, with a grease filled hub, holds up. It is now at 38,500. In my thoughts it is like a diesel engine that runs 12 quarts of oil verses the same engine running 30 quarts of oil. The one with the larger quantity of available oil, being the same engine, is used in a heavier duty truck with a life expectancy four times greater. Fresh available grease at the bearing has to be better than no reserves and the ability to pump fresh stuff through there any time, that will also push water out, is what worked very well in my days as a serious three wheeler rider/racer. | ||
| Court |
Let's not let this thread die, I'd like to get some data. A couple, with nothing to back them up, random thoughts.
Just curious. | ||
| Pso |
Court: I like your approach also another question is how common of a problem is this? Like the #77 connector, belt breaking etc. | ||
| Pso |
Court: I like your approach also another question or two is how common of a problem is this, also did yo0u do your wheel replacment or the techs at a dealership and were proper procedures used, rideing style, garage kept, etc? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Comments on a few of your thoughts: * I'm curious about where the moisture comes from - water intrusion or condensation. I can control intrusion, not condensation. Condensation can only occur if humid air enters the wheel and the temperature of the wheel falls below the dew point of that air. So if the wheel starts out dry, and the seals are water-tight, I think they'd be air-tight, and there should be no opportunity for condensation. * Would it be possible to use a desiccant? I'm sure you could put desiccant in there. One idea- the next time you buy a piece of electronic gear save the silica gel packs out of it. Supposedly these can be dried out by heating in a low temp oven. Dry a couple out; toss them in the wheel before you install the bearings and spacer. That'd be one easy way to accomplish it. * What are the best "reasonable" (within the range of what folks normally pay) bearings? The problem I see is that ALL these bearings AFAIK are manufactured to meet the same industry standard. There's not a sure way to specify a "better" bearing. OTOH SKF has been around a long time, has an excellent reputation and the Swedes do know their precision machining. IIRC they're about $35 each- maybe you get what you pay for up to a point. * How long do tires last? The OEM rear Pirelli Scorpion Syncs are good for maybe 4000-8000 miles. * Is it possible to simply change bearings (it's a simple procedure) at each tire change. You could change them at every tire change and some people have taken that philosophy. However, you may eventually wear the openings in the wheel out and lose your press fit (see earlier thread on the subject). Another point is that there's quite a bit of evidence to suggest that the installation has more to do with the bearing life than the quality of the bearings themselves. Every time you change them you run the risk of screwing up the installation. So changing the bearings at each tire change could increase, rather than reduce the likelihood of failure. * I want to keep spare bearings on hand. I think keeping spare bearings on hand is a very good idea. I'd guess that any motorcycle or machine shop could replace them on the road if need be and self-replacement road side or in a parking lot isn't out of the question. | ||
| Od_cleaver |
A couple of thoughts on Court's thoughts: 1. Desiccant - if water vapor is leaking in (and I am sure that there is some air exchange) eventually the desiccant will become saturated and absorb no more moisture. At best the desiccant will limit the swings of the relative humidity inside of the hub. Also, the desiccant will probably beat itself into a fine powder. There is enough fine powder on the outside. I would find it hard to place dirt on the inside as well. 2. Traveling with spare rear bearings - my Buell dealer said that to use the Buell bearing install tool required them to remove the sprocket. Not a big deal, but the screws are a one time use screw per Buell. My dealer did not have the screws in stock. This resulted in one more week of down time. Solution, carry your own new sprocket screws or be prepared to install the old screws yourself in the parking lot because the dealer will not do it. | ||
| Motorfish |
Although I think it is a good idea to carry spare bearing along on a trip, it would really be a drag to have to change bearings on the road. I would much rather change bearings than U-haul my bike home, though. I bought a new bike so I wouldn`t have to worry about things like this, and now, since it let me down, it will be in the back of my mind on every road trip. I`m not too wild about drilling the hub for a grease fitting, but the Uly wheels are supposed to be stronger than XB wheels so I guess it should handle it. Loading the hub with grease is a good idea, but messy when changing bearings, but that shouldn`t happen as often then, right? I don`t really ride off road much with my Uly, I have a dirt bike for that, but it would be cool to do some sort of dual sport kind of thing sometime. I guess if I keep an eye on the bearings at every tire change, and carry spares, I won`t be as paranoid about the situation. As far as new fasteners for the sprocket, I would chance using the old ones until I got home. Don`t forget to carry a torque wrench too. Ugh! I guess if you went to a dealer, on the road, with your parts he could help you out. Man, I don`t know, preventative maintenance is much easier, and less expensive. Court is doing the right thing, by collecting all the data and seeing what works, and what doesn`t. Kind of confusing/frustrating. What a mess. I just want to ride and not worry about this crap. | ||
| Ourdee |
Do dealers stock bearings? If so, what? Do dealers stock the spacer? The dealer did not have them when mine failed at HC. I'd guess that any motorcycle or machine shop could replace them on the road if need be and self-replacement road side or in a parking lot isn't out of the question. When the dealer went to remove my bearings one of the bearings came apart leaving the outer race stuck in the rim. It had to be welded to something to be pulled out. I was told both bearings failed. Court, Mine had less than 5k mi. on it. I plan on treating the bike the same again this year and will see if the black bearings fail. If there is no ice, freezing rain, or 1/4"+ snow I try to ride. I did 420 miles one day and it was 17 degrees when I started out. I really need to get an electric vest. I don't pressure wash, but do sometimes hose the wet salt spray off the bike. I've even hosed it off after riding in a rainstorm. I try to keep the hose away from the bearings. | ||
| Court |
>>>I bought a new bike so I wouldn`t have to worry about things like this There ya have it . . . I am going to continue my inquest. This has been fruitful. >>>I just want to ride and not worry about this crap. I agree. I think gathering the right minds, data and information may help get to the bottom of this. Thank you for your help. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Court- I assume you were there, but last year at homecoming, it was reported here that Abe Askanazi announced that the factory was aware of the issue. He claimed that they had determined the problem was caused by moisture getting past the seals into the bearings, and they had changed to a bearing with a better seal design that would correct the issue. The black seal bearings made by KBC started showing up on bikes a couple of months later. Can you just ask him and verify this story? | ||
| Cyclone8u |
My $.02 - I was very concerned about this problem before my 2500+ mile trip to S.Carolina and back last month. But I checked them before the trip and all seemed fine, so I took off with a bike loaded to max GVWR or more and never gave it a thought. My general observation of this problem has been that in all but the rarest circumstances do the bearings fail quicker than a set of tires. Those failures can most likely be traced to improper installation. It's been fairly well documented that not following the rear wheel installation procedure will net an improperly loaded bearing, and hence a failure. Therefore, given proper treatment it would seem prudent to treat them as a maintainence item and change them, if not at the tire change interval, then every other tire change. For around $35.00 a pair, I would consider that pretty cheap insurance. In my case, with what looks like roughly 9,000 miles out of 2 sets of tires that would be less than half a cent a mile, or about 1 cent a mile changing them every tire change. Here are my statistics for the consensus. 2008 Uly, 8600 miles. 90% of those miles have been 2 up. The bike has been ridden in weather from temps in the low teens with plenty of salt water spray, to hot humid torrential downpours and everything in between. Original bearings with orange seals last checked about 400 miles ago. Both times the rear wheel has been off, I've done all the work and followed the service manual procedure for re-torqueing the rear axle to the letter. On my next tire change in a few hundred miles I will replace the bearings as a maintainence item and be quite confident that I will continue failure free at least until the next tire change. YMMV | ||
| Motorfish |
On a part that can leave you stranded upon failure, the most practical solution, IMO, is to inspect at every tire change and replace at every other one, making sure they are installed correctly. I know that no bike is perfect, but I`m having a hard time accepting this. It is a big annoyance to me, on a bike designed to tour on. | ||
| Court |
>>>It is a big annoyance to me, on a bike designed to tour on. I agree. It seems like a solvable situation. One of my criteria . . the I look for in a bike . . . id dependability. When I had my S2 rebuilt by Aaron Wilson our goal was not power. When I sent him the bike it had a whopping 52RWHP and I was happy as could be with it. My instructions to him were . . . "I want to be able to start it in New York City and ride it to San Diego without stopping". To that end . . . . every tolerance was set to +/- 0.000" and we passed on things like extreme cams, loud exhausts (another of my requirements was being able to start the bike at 6:00am without bothering my neighbors) and so forth. I'd like to have the same expectation of my Ulysses. Although I have not, over the past 7 years, been engaging in my signature "leave Kansas for lunch in South Carolina and ride home afterward" . . style of riding . . . I would like to be able to. I'm going to keep seeing what I can learn. I love the Ulysses and it is one of the best touring and general riding platforms I've ever experienced. Court |
