| Author | Message | ||
     Road_thing |
In order to avoid further drift in the Texas S2Step thread, I'm going to re-post pictures and commentary regarding the engine failure my S2 suffered last weekend. To summarize the story so far: I bought this motor from a friend and fellow BWB'er a few years ago. It was a used piece with a lot of good hot-rod stuff: Nallin Stage 3 heads, Red Shift 585 cams, S&S flywheels and rods and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting. I swapped it into my 1995 S2 and have put maybe 2500 miles on it since I got it. It was a good runner until last Sunday (2 weeks before the Texas S2 Step in the Hill Country, dammit...) when it made a bad noise and lost oil pressure in the bustling metropolis of Burton, Tx. I heard the oil pump drive gear strip (I was only going 15 or 20 mph) and looked down and saw the oil light come on. I shut it off immediately; it couldn't have run more than 10 seconds after the gear let go. I called my wife and she came and got me so I could trailer it back to the Ranchito del Pinche Chingadero which fortunately, was only about 15 miles away from where it broke. I dropped the oil pump as soon as it cooled off enough to work on it. Here's what I found:  Not looking too good. At this point I was hopeful that it was just a drive gear failure. I was prepared to cannibalize the oil pump and gear off the S2's original motor, which is now in my FrankenBuell S1 project:  When I pulled the cam cover, sure enough, the drive gear was toast:  But that's not all. When I pulled the oil pump apart, here's what I found inside:  Lafayette "Buellistic" let me know that those needles could only have come from the cam bearings in the engine case, so I pulled the cams. He was right:  I've gotten a lot of useful feedback from other BWB'ers on the other thread. I'll summarize it: The motor had been modified before I bought it--no surprise there, I bought it for the hot-rod stuff--and one of the mods was replacing most of the cam bushings with needle bearings. Many of those bearings are loose in their bores. The single remaining bronze bushing is spun in its bore (you were right about that, Rickie). Also, the nut holding the pinion and oil pump drive gear on the end of the crank was backed off 1/8" or so; the backside of the nut is scored and the pinion and OP drive gear can slide back and forth on the shaft. The boss around the bushing in the cam cover for the crank end is damaged, apparently by the nut riding against it:  I've run a couple of gallons of mineral spirits through the bottom end and reached into the crankcase sump with a little magnet. I recovered exactly 13 needles, including the two I found in the oil pump, plus a bunch of broken gear teeth and the head off a bolt that was put in to retain one of the big needle bearings. I haven't counted the needles in the undamaged bearings, but there are a lot more than 13, so I'm missing a fair amount of metal. I've flushed the oil tank and blown out the oil lines with compressed air, but haven't found any more needles. I cut open the oil filter that was on the bike when it died--nothing in there other than the usual fine filings. I had changed the oil and filter maybe 100 miles before the failure, so I cut the old filter open, too--nothing. At this point, it looks like I'll be pulling this motor. If it's not worth repairing, I'll swap the original motor back in and probably part out the '97 S1. The PO advised me to contact the engine builder, who is a BWB sponsor, for advice. I plan to do that. I don't expect him to do warranty work on a years-old hot-rod rebuild, but I'm hoping to get some advice on what it'll take to put this thing back together (and maybe some sympathy, too!) I'm also in contact with another BWB sponsor who's well known for their fine work (...cough...Pammy...) to get their take on the situation. So we'll see. Is it a rebuildable core? Is it scrap? Tune in tomorrow for the continuation of the saga... rt | ||
| Nallac |
Ouch...that really sucks. I should really check my oil pump gear. | ||
| Buellistic |
Oil pump and gear "INFO" upon request, just e-mail me(Ljenne73c@verizon.net and the INFO copies are yours ... | ||
| Nallac |
man thats depressing looking at those pics again. cheers Lafayette have emailed you.. | ||
| Road_thing |
It's on the lift in my barn/shop and it's so depressing to me that I put the cam cover back on so I wouldn't have to look at it. At least I rode my Road King this weekend without blowing it up. rt | ||
| Hugie03flhr |
I swapped out my 02 oilpump and gear for the 2007 oilpump and bronze gear because I was afraid of your situation. If your on a budget I'll let you have my original pump and gear cheap. They're in perfect shape with 8k on them. I almost regretted changing them because I couldn't detect any wear... | ||
| Nallac |
if you drop the oil pump to inspect gears is it obvious the differences between the old and updated/new gears?. | ||
| Steveford |
Sorry to hear/see that. Good thing for the Road Load as a back up bike! | ||
| Reepicheep |
I just finished pulling a fairly intact one from my 05 9sx, and replacing with the updated pump and golden pinion gear. The whole time thinking I am wasting my time. I feel better about the hassle factor now, sorry for your break  . If it will fit, I'll send you a perfectly good xb pump that was original to my 9sx. 30k miles, but it looks perfect. | ||
| Road_thing |
Thanks for the offers, guys. Much appreciated. I'm waiting for an expert opinion on the cases--if they're scrap, the whole exercise may be moot. rt | ||
| Mmmi_grad |
http://www.advancedcyclemachining.com/ These guys are expert case repair people, anything out there they can repair. they know hd cases. plus they warranty NO CRACKS for life. This includes race repair or new races. | ||
| Road_thing |
Grad--thanks for that link! rt | ||
| Reepicheep |
Nallac, yes the difference is obvious. The old style is grey, and probably has detectable wear, even on the new XB's. The new style looks bright gold (probably beryllium copper). It's actually a beautiful piece of sculpture all to itself. I dropped the pump on my 05 9sx at about 20k miles, and saw obvious (but not threatening) wear. I started collecting parts on ebay and the classifieds for an eventual swap (like Hugie). I bought the Uly, and will have to sell the 9sx (sniff!) and want the new owner to be as happy as I have been, so I just swapped the parts in at 30k. The gear I pulled was worn substantially, but nowhere near failure, even at 30k miles. A bit less worn then my M2 gear was at 20k miles. So I would advise tuber owners to panic, and drop the oil pump sooner rather then later and see how worn they are (check both sides, it wears unevenly). I would advise XB owners from the pre berillium copper days (that's what, pre 06?) to drop the pump the next time they are changing oil and it is convenient. Its a hassle to swap it out (pull at least one rocker box cover), but not that expensive. I have noticed a *little* difference from the upgraded oil pump on my 05 9sx (cut open airbox) in the way the bike sounds... Like somebody pulled maybe 2 of the 10 quarters out of the blender.  | ||
| Nallac |
Thanks Reepicheep, i'll have to get some more oil and check it very soon. | ||
| Kalali |
So is the failure mode the excessive wear (for a given mileage) or more of a poor design, e.g., infant mortality, etc.,issue? In other words, are low mileage engines also prone to gear failure? Just trying to gauge how much I should panic with ~17K miles on the bike... Thanks. | ||
| Kmbuell |
RT, did your engine fail because the oil pump failed or did your oil pump fail because your cams sized? I've seen this failure recently on a bike that ingested substantial aluminum bits from a dropped valve/piston collision. The gear was fine, the suction side of the pump was packed with aluminum pellets. But the bushings spun because all the oil was in the bottom of the motor is the best guess. No oil pressure either way! We've moved this discussion into oil pump failure mode, but it'll be an interesting post mortem on the cases. | ||
| Mmmi_grad |
My ••••••• pleasure, someone has to point people to real hd machine shops before the pathetic dealer network and bad atityudes screw someone else over. | ||
| Road_thing |
Km, my read on it is that the cam bearing let go and the needles dropped into the crankcase, from whence they were sucked into the oil pump (I found two needles inside the oil pump when I took it apart). When the needles hit the rotors inside the oil pump, it froze up, destroying the oil pump drive gear. And then, things got ugly! rt | ||
| Kmbuell |
In a hurry no doubt! RT, Thats about what I thought. The bronze gear would have done the same in that situation. Maybe that will settle down the chatter about the "defective gear" that "Buell" put in these motors. I always get a chuckle out of that. "Buell" never built a motor that went into a street bike. They had to buy every single one of them from the Motor Company. Any idea why the bushings were replaced with bearings? I don't know the cost of the machine work and bearings but cases are a bit pricey. The motor I had is getting new S&S cases. Not cheap, but real pretty! I was amazed at how the piston bottoms in my motor looked like they were shot blasted when we pulled the first cylinder off. It didn't get better as we got deeper into it! | ||
| Road_thing |
Km, the PO tells me that he bought the motor in a used bike that had apparently been run low on oil, and the cam bushings were spun in the cases. The needles were intended as a repair for that condition. Do you mind telling me what the S&S cases ran you? I guess I could check MSRP on their website, but maybe they can be had for less? rt | ||
| Kmbuell |
RT, Rickie D (D Bag) has the motor. I think he said the S&S cases were around $2600. I'd check with them. We kind of figured it'd be a wash to replace all the bushings, line hone everything, and bore it to 3-5/8". This way everything is new, and it'll be a 100 hp at the rear wheel out of the box! | ||
| Road_thing |
Update. The blown motor is out of the bike:  I built a frame that bolts to the back of my lift so I can support the frame of the bike with a ratchet strap. It made pulling the motor a much easier one-man job.   I'm now searching for a replacement motor or a good set of cases. Any help in that department is greatly appreciated. rt | ||
| Road_thing |
Minor update: My buddy Jet Peek (shameless plug for a friend: owner of Full Throttle Custom Cycles in Houston, Wirt Road N of I-10) tells me that new cases/cam cover from the factory will run me about a grand. Then I can rebuild the motor using the good internals and top end for not much more than another used motor of unknown background. I'm heading in that direction now, as soon as I get back from riding with Bomber in the wilds of Wisconsin for a couple of days. Beware, Cheeseheads, the Entropy Brothers are coming! rt | ||
| Road_thing |
Bump. It's coming back together, Film at 11... rt | ||
| Hootowl |
RT - Those side plates look like they're from an RS1200. | ||
| Road_thing |
Jeff-I think you're right, they were on the bike when I bought it. They don't appear to be cut down S2 plates. rt | ||
| Hootowl |
I wonder what the story is behind that? | ||
| Road_thing |
I dunno...I've asked Court about 'em, even gave him the casting # off the back of the plate, and he says they're cut-down stockers, but they don't look like that to me. rt | ||
| Hootowl |
Now that I take a good look, they do sort of look like cut down S2 plates. The RS plate doesn't appear to have a recess in the rear section and yours do.   | ||
| Road_thing |
Yeah, I think you're right. I'm going to take a closer look at them later on today. rt |
