| Author | Message | ||
     Bob_thompson |
Dave(Xb9), are you going to continue to run your bike with the O2 sensors disconnected, and if you are do, can you as yet see ANY adverse conditions that may arise from doing it? Also what is your complete condition for the fueling, i.e., throttle locked, noid disconnected, mechanically or electrical, etc? Again as I have said, I don't think I'm having any troubles, but.............could it run better? Maybe. Thanks again guys, this has been, and is, one of the best threads going. Bob | ||
| Xb9 |
I'm going to continue to see if it set's a code, or if the AFV's change. I really need to put some time on it to see. I'll keep posting any new info as it comes along. As far as adverse effect: The way I see it, there's more adverse effect running it so damn lean WITH the O2 sensors connected. If anything (ask any tuner) you are better off on the rich side than the lean side. Throttle is locked, and the 'noid cable is disconnected.It's still plugged into the harness. Both 02 sensors are disconnected at the 02 wire connectors. AFV's are both set: 100F/105R If you're curious - try it. All it takes is a 1/2 mile of riding and you will see a huge difference. Then if you aren't comfortable leaving it that way, hook them back up. I took a nice 40 mile ride this evening, freeway and some nice winding country back roads, and it was the first time I really truly enjoyed riding this bike on the street. No codes, AFV's still the same. Some side benefits which are hard to confirm at this point, but it appears the bike is running cooler, not throwing off as much heat. And I may have picked up another 1-2 MPG. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Thanks much Dave and I totally agree on the erring on the side of richness in fueling. This has always been my contention in all my high performance endeavors I have undertaken and they are many. Looks like I'm doing some wrenching soon. I'll report also. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Once more just before starting to work on the F.I. system I was researching and found a thread from Jpfive dated May 7th in which he stated accurately from the electrical diagnostic manual: "during the open loop operation the system uses programmed fuel and spark maps in the ECM providing easy cold starting and maximum power at WOT. The adaptive fuel value, LEARNED DURING CLOSED LOOP OPERATION,(that is key), is applied to open loop operation to adjust fuel and spark maps for optimal operation" Now if I'm understanding that correctly the O2 sensors DO play at least some part in the TOTAL OPTIMAL operation of the fueling/engine operation. So, now I again somewhat confused. With the great help from Slypiranna, Xb9 and others recently I was ready to just disconnect the 'noid, lock the throttle linkage and disconnect the O2 sensors and try that but now I'm debating what the OVERALL operation will be. Right now its pretty good in all respects. Post flash. If in fact the closed loop operation adds information to the open loop operation this, it seems would be either good or bad, (too lean as Sly found out). I know at least Xb9 has his best operation yet with what he did. As stated in my post above LEAN is not usually good except for EPA regs. so I will still probably at least try this. Easy to go back if any faults are noted. Lets hear what you guys think about this post and after all your fine troubleshooting. I am addicted to trying to make things work better. Bob | ||
| Xb9 |
Bob, you are right, the system will not be able to learn and the AFV's should stay where they are. Not a big deal short term because it already has learned if you have any miles on it since being flashed. As I have speculated the root cause has been identified; I don't know exactly what it is. Soon my friends, let's be patient. | ||
| Slypiranna |
This thread was written some time ago but should still prove useful in our quest here...read the entire page. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/293612.html | ||
| Xb9 |
The MAP sensor feedback is suspect: Wondering if your readings at 3500 is cause or effect. The location of this sensor puzzles me - I believe it is way down the intake track, below the butterflies. Could be getting some fluctuating readings there if conditions at 3500 are just right? Wonder if it jumps all over the place with the 02's disconnected like it does in closed loop???? | ||
| Slypiranna |
Not enough information yet to answer cause or effect but staying on it. Yes, map is down low and baro up top. This is the first I've seen of using two identical sensors...one referencing intake pressures and one atmosphere...two correction maps in the ecu? | ||
| Slypiranna |
Again, MAP tested fluctuation @ approx 3500rpm/CL/4th gear load point. MAP KPA reading 39-45 MAP VOLT reading 2.4-2.9 All other load points exhibit much tighter group readings and or far reduced fluctuation. Currently unknown if a lean condition is the reason or something else is going on here. So goes on with more testing. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Good thread Sly from before and great to have Anonymous chime in. Xb9; your inputs always add knowledge also and a good point to look at. One of my considerations at this time is to disconnect the cable to the solenoid, lock the throttle but leave the O2 sensors connected and the reason is: I regularly, almost every ride, go from 4100 ft elevation up to 8500 ft. and down again and I believe I will more need the ECM to adjust constantly. I also believe the O2 sensors and the barometric sensor plays a significant part (air density) in that also from another anonymous thread about elevation changes. Am I going wrong? Anyways I'll try that and report back. Bob Almost forgot; AFV's are at 94.5 front and rear and right now throttle range is 2 to 100% in stock condition. (Message edited by bob_thompson on June 25, 2008) | ||
| Jpfive |
Power levels are set by (intake)manifold pressure vs rpm in aircraft reciprocating engines. Motorcycle EFI systems can approximate this matrix by referencing throttle angle (alpha) vs rpm - which is how the air/fuel maps are defined. EFI systems that reference a MAP sensor operate more precisely. The baro sensor is not related to this matrix. In conjunction with the intake temp sensor, density altitude (again going back to my flying days) can be determined, for the purpose of providing real time correction for atmospheric conditions. Cutting edge EFI systems reference both values. I think our systems qualify for that description...  Jack | ||
| Slypiranna |
Dave, Where's Gunter at?! Did you bury him under the tables?! Bob, With all that you've posted, I agree you are doing the right thing. Wise moves. We simply do not have enough proved information yet but this thread is really gaining on it! Not to mention that without some sort of monitoring a/f, egt or doing the math via downloading fuel maps as Dave has pulled off...one would be risking their beloved Helicon in the process. None of us wish to hear/read of a such a risk proving negative in the owners experience and/or related to this threads learning curve. Careful and mindful are the two best descrips that you've proved! You've even made me think twice a time or two! Jack, Awesome input! I had no prior knowledge of such fuel systems ops! My father, the engineer/pilot should have enlightened me of this info years ago after all that he and I have been through! He's gonna hear about this one... Great posts! Great input! And as we go along here...learning first names in the process, I should offer the same. Montgomery, or simply, mm It should be reminded that nothing contained within this thread is to be considered as a recommendation/solve/or a proven method...WE are simply sharing information in our combined efforts to find answers to questions that remain! WE are only trying to HELP this effort, not hurt it. Keep this thread alive & learning! | ||
| Slypiranna |
Any new info out there? I'm down to swapping the map sensor down low for the baro up top and running the same MAP output volts/kpa test to see if there is any difference at the infamous load point. The lower one is buried down there. Should be interesting, non the less. | ||
| Jpfive |
The only time the map sensor and baro will agree is while the engine is not running. I think I am misunderstanding what this test will accomplish. Are you trying to switch input leads to the ECM? Jack | ||
| Slypiranna |
Agreed Jack. Not switching leads, the MAP was showing a fluctuation on a different test at the load point in question. Being the map and baro wear the same bosch part number, I'm simply switching them to verify the previous readings. Could have nothing or all to do with said issues. More process of elimination. | ||
| Jpfive |
Ahhhh...never mind.. Jack | ||
| Xb9 |
Still no codes thrown with the 02's disconnected, bike is still running much better than with them connected. Sly, did you determine anything with your MAP/BARO swap test? | ||
| Slypiranna |
Zero difference in the MAP/BARO swap test. That was pretty much the last test that seemed easy enough to try without understanding something else related within the ecu. I'm sure once we finally know what the herky jerky is caused from, we will be surprised. I'm looking very much forward to that ride & the ability to really MOD this engine! | ||
| Slypiranna |
...AND it would be awesome to witness the solution before this thread breaks the 100 post mark! | ||
| Xb9 |
Thanks MM, I'm off to East Troy tomorrow AM. MAYBE, just MAYBE I can find SOMEONE that will please tell me what's going on!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Xb9, Slypiranna and others, a couple of questions; first, I still hanging fire waiting to see if "a fix" from Buell is forthcoming Xb9 talked about in the "surging" posts. Any more word on that? Also I believe I'm still going to try the throttle lock and disconnect the 'noid. Can you guys tell me just how you "locked" the throttle. Probably simple but I have not been under the air box yet. Approaching 100 posts, maybe a cure is coming but I'm still running really good so I'm proceeding slowly. Maybe something from Homecoming, have fun all. Wish I was there. Bob | ||
| Zac4mac |
I think I found out that Loretta's learning disability is related to the fact that I never have a problem with the 'noid. I am rarely in third gear for any length of time. Seems both events take place there. Loretta adjusted her AFV today to100/99.5 on the way back from the Factory and is running MUCH better. I'm also convinced the burn mark on the rear heat-dam is from adding "rocket-fuel" to Iowa's crap gas. Z | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Zac, My AFV's are running 94.5 front and rear. Are you going up in elevation very often? I think my AFV's are lower because I go from 4200 ft. to 8000ft. on almost every ride and thrash mine pretty good and that shows the lower numbers because of the leaner air I encounter. I also agree on the solenoid issue as I also rarely see that rpm area and when I do I'm going through it pretty rapidly. Again I will hang fire for a while and see if there is in fact more info that comes out on a "fix" Glad to see you hung in there and are really enjoying Loretta. Worth the wait! Too many want to condemn this marvelous bike too quick and its their loss. Ride on my friend, and enjoy. | ||
| Palerider |
I truly appreciate what you guys are doing. I understand most of what you're discussing ,just don't ask me to do "hands on" stuff. Hopefully with all this info, and trial and error testing some of the problems will get solved, and get back to Buell. Oh, I had an A/C code, I know it's not air conditioning, can anyone tell me what it is? Something to do with charging system? Thanks. | ||
| Teach |
I am thinking about disconnecting the O2 sensors. Is it to be understood that unless alterations are made to either the air filter/airbox or exhaust that the ecm has already "learned" and that disconnecting the O2 sensors will not cause any problems? Or what is the function of the O2 sensors once the bike has been broken-in?? Next question, where is the "connector" for the rear O2 sensor?? I can see the one for the front, but... No, haven't made up my mind to disconnect them, but may.... I hope the XB9 learns something at homecoming.... by the way, XB9, you may have been my instructor at Nelson Ledges. You were great! | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Jim(Teach) see my post above and as I said I will have to leave my O2 sensors connected because I believe they monitor air available, constantly, even if after the combustion cycle and with my elevation changes on a regular basis, daily and hourly its a must to allow the engine to work at peak efficiency. I also think the barometric sensor must have some input also. On the other hand where you are at in Ohio you would probably be OK once the ECM has learned your elevation until you headed up in the mountains to your south or east or on a cross country ride where you would encounter those changes up or down. I also like the idea, like I said, of disconnecting the "noid and locking the throttle to have better control at my hand. Fly by wire is fine until it has a problem. | ||
| Xb9 |
Just got back from homecoming, it finally threw the codes for the 02 sensors being unplugged - took 1200 miles for them to set. No ill effects, actually ran excellent the whole trip. Except when I got in a 1 hour traffic jamb south of Chicago. trying to run this thing just off idle at 10-15 miles/hr. for that long is frustrating - herky jerky bucking away. Talked to a couple of very prominent Buell employees at homecoming, they confirmed there is a new calibration coming out soon. We need a little patience, they will make it right. | ||
| D_buckle |
awesome. Any idea what the time line is? i can't wait! | ||
| Xb9 |
waiting on the gov't to (EPA) approve is the word I got. One thing I forgot to mention is that Tony S. told me the current revised flash program only addressed engine management issues - re the battery issues. There were no fueling or ignition timing changes in that calibration from the original. This new one yet to be released will correct the drivability issues. | ||
| Jpfive |
The reflash also modified tip-in and IAC steps, which was to address cold start and throttle response. I am glad they are going slow on the a/f maps and timing - as these are probably not as far off as we think. Except for the stutter at 3500 rpm, I am pretty well satisfied with the way mine runs. I suspect they will also address solenoid function - but I have made that a non-issue by removing mine (the noid eliminators are working fine). Thanks for the info xb9! Jack |
