| Author | Message | ||
     Teach |
I have learned much thanks to Xb9 and Slypiranna. Keep the dialogue going!! | ||
| Slypiranna |
The only code (given all else is a ok) that will post on a mechanically disconnected Noid are a "P", followed by a series of dashes...similar to an open electrical connection. During this time, a CEL will come on, however, it will eventually clear itself after an unknown number of "clean" run cycles. During this time and thereafter, non of the above affects AFV's OR CL operations. Please note that the above happens only under certain conditions, not every time, nor on every example tested to date. Some examples don't even show a repost no matter the situation. I attribute that somewhat to build tolerance. While these 11's are all in the same family, each and every example offers its own unique personality, if you will. Which comes full circle and back to the ecu's design, operation unknowns and the varied conditions that we are exercising them in. They seem to slowly adjust accordingly to all these different situations...some just better than others! Kind of organic like!? Maybe that is why some of us are "naming" this animal!  Back to the Noid. Simply disconnecting the Noid mechanically does give a minor improvement to throttle control and obviously eliminates some of the ill issues some of us have experienced when it energizes. The real benefit is found when the spring loaded throttle is locked and the cables major end play is taken to minor end play. All but a minor percentile of butterfly movement to throttle grip movement is noticed. A major improvement to the rider IS noticed. TPS fluctuation @ any measured angle is reduced credibly via reduced tolerance or the available room to move about. Stabilizing the butterflies has proved beneficial, on all accounts and on more than one 11. But all of that travel and/or tolerance cannot be fully removed as this linkage system compounds clearance more than we are used to seeing in other designs. Just count the number of linkage joints, they all must have clearance...the more adds up to more...no way around it when approached this way. Why did the engineers not just add a secondary butterfly with electronic control, ecu and servo and/or fly by wire to meet EPA noise levels @ said load point? My opinion, $$$$$$$$ and plenty of it! That would be my best guess. How would any engineering group solve such a similar curve? Or, perhaps this was an afterthought...maybe it was added onto the existing design after a failed test? NOT enuff info to call it! Nor would it matter now as this is what we have to work with. Solutions/improvements come in small steps but from an off road and or racing and or these testing grounds, the above mods have and DO make a noticeable and positive difference in the rider's perception, let alone how this machine adapts. | ||
| Kttemplar |
This article in a blog from January says that the air/fuel ratio is 15.1-1 and they predicted that surge problems would come from the setup. http://1125rforums.com/blog/2008/01/17/it%e2%80%99 s-a-narrow-band/ I thought it was interesting. Mike | ||
| Slypiranna |
Kttemplar....Interesting? This is VERY credible information! Otherwise, most certainly..."someone" would have written otherwise!? Thank YOU for posting it! One of my (5k mile) 11's valves sound loose in tappet clearance, very loose!...on the front cylinder for sure but only singing loud after 50 mile MAJOR test&tune bolts. This could POSSIBLY be why I'm seeing a different reading on the wideband and AFV's? Forward cylinder shows slightly lean in all load points. One might argue different as to delayed lift and or duration effects upon combustion cycles...your most welcome NOW to comment further upon this! I've noted this one valves "voice" since new back in Jan but knew better than whine about it to a dealer. It has gotten just a little louder over 5k miles...but still not excessive. I really think someone was just a little on the higher side of allowable clearance that day in Austria! May have been their Friday! If this system is THAT advanced and or sensitive...then without further question, my hat is off to Buell's e-3 capabilities. A simple valve lash adjustment will soon tell of this...SPEAKING OF WHICH...who has the HD NET procedures available to post for those of us doing SELF SERVICE? ALL INFO IS WELCOME AND IS NEEDED FOR US ALL TO LEARN BY... ...please post in this thread all usable data...as any info will only help accelerate our combined learning curve...even "simple" valve lash procedure. That and I need to drop my motor and adjust the valves and ...well, you'll read later! A leakdown test/new plugs/oil and filter change will be part of this labor as it is relevant. Pre thoughts and experience with this example don't lead me to think that the leakdown tests won't be in check. Just supportive information. A combination of both separate cylinder, advanced speed density AND Alpha N fueling...plus learned/applied capabilities IS advanced! 15:1 A/F...or higher, seems now, acceptable theory w/o a catalyst for current EPA criteria. GOOD info!...For the record, mine reads higher in averaged A/F, CL conditions. MORE INFORMATION IS NEEDED! POST ON! KEEP THIS THREAD ALIVE AND LEARNING! Next... | ||
| Zac4mac |
All I know, for sure, is I rode a popcorn machine for 1100 miles before it turned back into a superbike. I won't be jumping on any ECM flashes anytime soon. Z | ||
| Blake |
"This is VERY credible information!" You are funny. | ||
| Xb9 |
That's interesting if in fact true. My thoughts: Trying to target a 15.1:1 ratio with a narrowband 02 sensor that is only accurate for 14.7 has got to be a trick. It may be much more accurately accomplished with a wideband O2 though. Hey, I have a ZT-2 wideband 02 & controller sitting in a box that has a simulated narrowband output....may try an experiment, although I wish I had two of them so I could do both cylinders simultaneously... The more I think about this, poking some richer values in the map won't help this, the poor running is in closed loop. If we could find out the location of the target O2 sensor voltage in the EEPROM, I think that is where we need to focus. We need your help Gunter. | ||
| Slypiranna |
I was able to enrichen the system to 13.8:1-14.2 A/F for a test. Yes, that is fat but thats as close as I could it get for now. It was weird bubbling along at 2800 rpm without bucking at all so I'm now positive that there will be a solution soon. My early thoughts still revolve around the cross counts of the stock o2's. The widebands feedback supports this. Testing goes on and the more the better! The following should be useful... "Cross count is the speed at which an oxygen sensor can oscillate between a rich to lean air/fuel mixture (or lean to rich). The faster the cross counts, the more accurate the ECU is able to adjust the air/fuel ratio. A new oxygen sensor will have a cross count of 50 to 100 milliseconds (Apx. 1/20 of a second). An aging oxygen sensor may have a cross count as slow as 500 milliseconds (one half second) although this sounds fast, in the world of electronics, this is slow. If the sensor has a slow cross count, the ECU is not receiving updates fast enough to efficiently manipulate the fuel flow through the injectors. An oxygen sensor with a sluggish cross count may not be easily identifiable, it may appear to be operating properly as your check engine light isn’t on and a diagnostic check may not indicate a fault code, but you may notice poor performance and reduced gas mileage." | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Sly, thanks again for the updates. I'm still learning. This make sense about the O2 sensors and brings a question to ask about the manufacturing tolerances of them as far as cross count/reaction time is and maybe why some bikes are affected and others are not. Also I see a correlation to a more steady rpm riding style as I have. But when I am playing in the twisties, one right after the other, for miles I also do not have a problem with constant on and off throttle and grabbing handfuls but evidently giving the O2 sensors just enough time to react while going through the "lean zone" quickly.(not from a steady throttle position)?-Are the O2 sensors even in play at this time? Seems like the steady cruise at 4000-5000 (way lean)and then trying to grab a handful is the limiting factor for the sensor. When doing this I roll on a little slow to start and then go WFO with no problems. I know I have put it into simple terms but this is what I'm seeing. Can you explain a little more on closed/open loop and just when O2 sensors are in play?Thanks again and keep it coming. Bob | ||
| Xb9 |
Generally speaking, If you are on and off the throttle constantly you are in open loop, running off the maps, not the 02 sensors. If you are steady state cruising you are in closed loop, running off the 02 sensors. My bike has a split personality - it runs fantastic in open loop but lousy lean in closed loop, which is typical of most all the complaints I've heard. I can accelerate through the 'bad' zone (3-4K) and it runs great. Hold it in that range steady state cruising and it runs like crap. This is definitely a closed loop issue. | ||
| Slypiranna |
I agree w/XB9 and have similar issues, open loop fueling seems spot on for a stock street bike... ...good questions Bob_thompson...but I'm still learning here too so I can't fill you in with known info on the actual CL parameters. I did a search for ecmspy and the info there is intoxicating! Smokin' information! I recommend an hour or so of reading! Also have been researching earlier Tech II info. They might be a player soon as well. The link above, posted by Kttemplar, further researched was posted by the administrator of Vmod's website origin and that of 1125-r.com. They are no strangers to HD/Buell. Good stuff is coming of this. Post on. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
More info, thanks much Xb9. Maybe this ECM program has a hard time switching from closed loop to open loop and therefor the problem. I want to believe after all that has been discussed here on BadWeb Erik and the Elves will be working on a viable solution SOON, I hope, if not for me for others with problems. And thanks for the heads up Sly. (Message edited by bob_thompson on June 20, 2008) | ||
| Xb9 |
I tried my wideband 02 controller on the front cylinder today, using it's simulated output to the ECM. The bike ran noticeably better, but still was surging and stumbling, only not as severe. My guess is if I had wideband controllers installed on both cyl. it would be pretty darn good. So... I got to thinking about when I was tuning maps on my xb....the process to map an XB is to always do your logging with the 02 sensor disconnected and the AFV's at 100. This in effect disables the closed loop mode, forcing the ECM to use the maps. As an experiment I just tried running the bike with both 02 sensors unplugged - effectively disabling the closed loop mode. No surging or bucking at cruise 3-4K, it's like a totally different bike. It runs like you would expect it to run. After 50 miles no codes, but I would expect it to throw codes at some point. We'll see. The ECM sees a steady 0.498V with the 02 sensor disconnected. and the AFV's are steady at 100F/105R. This confirms the poor running problems at cruise is a closed loop programming issue (at least in my mind). | ||
| Slaughter |
...and I'm betting that's why the racebikes use ONLY open loop. | ||
| Xb9 |
yep, no need for it on the track. I've had my bike on the track a couple of times, and it's such a different environment you never enter closed loop and the bike runs phenomenal. Get it on the street and cruise: closed loop runs like crap. My observation with the 02's disconnected: 95% good. There's still just a slight...and I mean slight surge at 3500. It's hardly noticeable and you have to be looking for it. But what a difference. That area of the map is probably a tad lean to match the A/F ratio they want to run in closed loop (to meet the EPA BS) | ||
| Xb9 |
One more observation w/o 02 sensors connected: After the re flash (current configuration) my bike would exhibit light popping on decel. No more. None. Gone. This bike runs like it should now! | ||
| Zac4mac |
Anecdotal observation on Loretta. She started running better about a month ago, about the same time the AFV went back to 100/100 after a short stint at 100/105. I've been reveling in her good behavior and she's been improving on it. Today coming home from work, she felt like an IL 4 so I checked AFV again. 95F/99.5R. Leaving for Homecoming next week, got a 3-400 mile trip planned for Monday(day after tomorrow). Just hoping that any future changes are for the better, if that's possible. This girl has a very complex psyche. Z | ||
| Xb9 |
like most women | ||
| Slypiranna |
Great info XB9...I replicated your test tonight, IN the rain. Wideband shows rich below 4k...really rich on one cylinder at 3000-3600 rpm. 12.6:1, constant. It bucks a little at this constant cruise rpm but could be relevant to other issues. Every where else, awesome and smooth in closed loop. 13.9-14.6, so says the wideband. We are on to something! Great thread in learning! Keep up the test and tune! This IS worth it. | ||
| Xb9 |
Sly, where are your AFV's now? | ||
| Slypiranna |
Xb9....105F, 100R...my elevation, if it matters is +900', central Ohio. I remember some of you posting that after really thrashing, you felt like the bike ran better and/or the afv's changed. Could this be due to elevated egt's getting the o2's nice and warm and therefor, responding better? Just a thought until I can test different o2's soon. (Message edited by slypiranna on June 22, 2008) | ||
| Spectrum |
I remember some of you posting that after really thrashing, you felt like the bike ran better and/or the afv's changed. Could this be due to elevated egt's getting the o2's nice and warm and therefor, responding better? Hmm seems counter intuitive as this happened with my bike and it runs cooler when thrashing it than at steady state. I'm guessing this is because at steady state I'm running at lower speeds around town. When thrashing it, I'm generally running at higher speeds and in clean air. | ||
| Xb9 |
Sly, was your front cly. the one that was richest (12.6:1)? If so that extra 5% in your AFV is taking it from approx. 13.23:1(if the AFV was at 100) to your 12.6:1. Could you post your WB A/F ratio specific to each Cyl? I'm 99% sure that elevation is not playing a part in AFV like the DDFI-II systems. The Baro sensor on the DDFI-III should be compensating for altitude. | ||
| Xb9 |
Even though ECMspy is not fully compatible with the 1125r ECM, you can read and write the raw EEPROM Data. I was able to remove my codes by changing the number of rides to 49, then after one ride it shows no codes (50 clean rides required to clear them). I was also able to reset the rear AFV to 100. I cannot find the page and offset for the front AFV. Gunter has my EEPROM data (YDOL4), but it will take him some time to figure it all out and add it to ECMSpy. That is one cool program! Thank's to Gunter and the ECMSpy crew. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Xb9... Yes, my forward cyl WAS the 105AFV...now it changed back to 100/100 after about 2 hours of interstate and backroads romping today. I checked the 02Volts in diag mode before and after today. Curiously, the response was very slow at first. At three different times, I pulled over and checked them & AFV's. The last time is when I actually saw the output volts vary noticeably quicker and that is when the AFV's adjusted. Upon returning home and riding more slowly, the bike ran noticeably worse than the start of the day...perhaps the leaner AFV. During this entire trip, the wideband supported all the above as far as response time was concerned, in closed loop. The screen readout is nothing more than two bars, one above the other, referencing F&R cylinders. Above the bars is the actual A/F number. In closed loop, they move back and fourth in real time, as the ecu adjusts pulsewidth. When the stock o2's V output is sluggish, so is the widebands but when you really get the egt's up via the "thrashing" method, the response time increases in unison. I've never had a charging or voltage problem with this 11. She has never been on a charger or a tender either so I'm comfortable that any voltage concern isn't part of the o2's response time. EGT seems to be though. In closed loop, 14.8 is now the richest average, 16.0 is now the leanest. Averaged out, 15.4:1...which is obviously too lean for smooth cruise operation. I feel that 15.0:1 might squeek by but until the resolution is corrected, I cannot test/prove this. Better o2's are on order and I should have info of this test by midweek. I did not record the actual richest cylinder's A/F when the AFV was at 105 (during the o2 disconnect test) but your math seems to support this and it makes sense. I'll have to try this again when I find the time. 50 clean counts also seems to be accurate as I've had many previous codes clear in this amount of time prior and others back this up as well on their 11's. As I get more data, I will post. This is all I have for now. Your ability to access some of the ecu's data interests me. What do I need in order to do the same? I've never used Ecmspy but I'm very literate to most of the race ecu systems ops that are on the market for the auto racing fields. Yes, I've read most all the info on Ecmspy's website, incredible stuff! Well worth the time to spend there! Burning daylight so back to the shop, she's cooled down by now! later, mm | ||
| Slypiranna |
Almost forgot...Anyone got the valve adjustment procedures from HDnet? It would be most appreciated. Thanks! mm (Message edited by slypiranna on June 22, 2008) | ||
| Xb9 |
Sly, you have mail | ||
| Slypiranna |
THANK YOU Xb9! | ||
| Slypiranna |
O2's can be scratched off this list now! Fedex was early in my receipt of this "test" and even though I've got valves to tighten up, I just had to test these asap. Absolutely zero change noted by using heated and/or "better" aftermarket O2's. Feedback reads the same. Closed loop feels the same. Back to the drawing board!...or where Xb9 & Gunter are right now, under the tables! I feel I have to join you guys there soon. | ||
| Xb9 |
I'm really enjoying the lack of a closed loop system on this bike. Hell, we didn't have to deal with this back in the day of the carburetor!! Then again, I was never much of an environmentalist! I LOVE fuel injection systems and the basic concepts once learned, and with the proper tools are great to work with. But throw in EPA requirements and it messes everything up. Could you imagine how this bike would run without any constraints (noise and pollution)? |
