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Crusty
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 07:42 pm: | 
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Dyna, He was going to build a high performance bike. The dealership I traded the bike in to was very afraid of the mileage, so they sold it dirt cheap.(they were as ignorant as they were stupid). The man who bought the bike was named John Gill, if I remember correctly, and he lived near Chicago. He thought he was getting a clapped out engine since the mileage was so high. He was a member of the A.T.C., and posted over there about the condition of the engine.
Incidentally, I've been using Mobil 1 15W-50 in my M2. Maybe I'll get 200,000 miles before I rebuild |
Mbsween
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 08:46 pm: |
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Bluey,
up here in Rochester, NY I don't think we've cracked 80 more than a couple times
Anyways, this oil thing is really rocket science, well okay rocket chemistry
Here's someone findings on the differences between syth and dino oil. The website is here
Take it for what its worth, but the big difference appears to be in how long an oil maintains its viscosity. If you change your oil every 1000, it would seem that it didn't matter which you used.
I switched to mobil 1, the only thing I can definitively report is that appears to uses less oil. On a 800+ mile ride to Ohio (AMA vintage Days) I used maybe a 1/4 of a quart. Usually it uses at least a 1/2.
quote:Preliminary Conclusions
The results of these tests seem to support some of the long-standing theories about oils while casting serious doubt on others. Going by these tests it would seem logical to assume that:
1. The viscosity of synthetic-based oils generally drops more slowly than that of petroleum-based oils in the same application.
2. Comparing these figures to viscosity retention for the same oils when used in an automobile (see later text by Prof. Woolum) would indicate that motorcycles are indeed harder on oils than cars.
3. The fastest and most significant drop in the viscosity of petroleum-based oils used in motorcycles occurs during the first 800 miles (or less) of use.
And here's a log for the fire
quote:
All of these results (1-3) agree with everything the oil companies have been telling us all along. However, the same test data also indicates that:
4. The viscosities of petroleum-based oils, whether designed for auto or motorcycle application, drop at approximately the same rate when used in a motorcycle.
5. There is no evidence that motorcycle-specific oils out-perform their automotive counterparts in viscosity retention when used in a motorcycle.
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Jwz7
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 01:08 am: |
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what does anyone think about diesel oil? it has
20% more additives than automotive oil and can withstand higher tempartures.it's processed the same as regular oil.the big difference is the additives they use.and everyone knows diesel engines take alot of abuse.i used rotella 15/40
for my break-in and now switching to mobil-1 syn.
don't get me wrong i think synthetics is the way
to go,but if you're gonna use dino oil i would choose diesel oil over car oil.thats my 2 cents
anyway. |
Kevyn
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 04:49 am: |
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I've used Rotella synthetic for diesel motors and find it to be just fine. Haven't opened up the motor to look at the condition of all the whirly bits but the oil itself hasn't changed color...based on my motorcycle experience with Rotella, I'm going to use it in my 4Runner with over 150000 miles clocked into a 4 cylinder motor.
If I remember correctly, Buell suggests using a 'diesel grade oil' in the owners manual for 99 M2...
I know I've saved a report about Rotella in a comparison with other synthetics, just have to rummage in the files... |
Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 08:25 am: |
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If I remember correctly, Rotella is a group 3 base stock, and it's somewhat controversial whether it should even be considered a synthetic.
The diesel version of Mobil 1 is called Delvac 1. It's also sold in some areas as Mobil 1 Truck and SUV oil. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 09:49 am: |
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Interesting info about synthetic oil.
http://www.cpchem.com/pao.asp
http://www.cpchem.com/pao_tl_product_property.asp |
Whodom
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 10:17 am: |
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Aaron- I believe you are right about the composition of Rotella. I run it in my 83 Honda Ascot, but since the viscosity is only 5W-40, it's not suitable for my Buell in SC's heat. The coolest thing about it is it's available for less than $13/gallon at WalMart.
The whole "exactly what is a synthetic oil?" thing seems to be unknown by most people. From what I've read, this started when Castrol first introduced Syntec. Mobil sued stating that Syntec was group 3 base stock, not PAO-based and therefore was not synthetic. Mobil lost the lawsuit as the court said there is no universally accepted definition of synthetic oil. After that (evidently figuring "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em), Mobil starting using non-PAO components in their automotive synthetic oils. I think that manufacturers are basically able to label anything as synthetic as long as it's better than their standard oil.
I have read that the Mobil motorcycle synthetic oils are "true" PAO-based synthetics so that's what I'm using in my Buell. |
Honu
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 10:55 am: |
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My obersvation. My XB9R has syn oil in it, my wife's XB9S has dino in it. After every ride together my fan stops at least a minute ahead of hers every time. Outside temps run above 90 all summer here. |
Thunderbox
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 04:07 pm: |
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I know that may look like proof but it is not very scientific. If the temp sensors worked exactly the same this may be better but if they only differ in their readings by 10% which is quit common that alone would account for the difference. Next time around put synth in her bike and not in yours and tell us what happens then. |
Ray_maines
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 07:17 pm: |
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Or trade bikes and then see who's fan goes off first. Rideing style perhaps? |
Shotgun
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 08:59 pm: |
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Or trade wives and see who gets hot first? |
Deerhunter17
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 10:13 am: |
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As for the Diesel oil deal, A friend of mine explained it's ( in motorcycle terms) the difference between air cooled vs. water cooled. The type of bearings used for these types of engines are different. Your car bearings are close tolorance smooth sleeves that rely on a film of oil to lubricate them. The air cooled ( motorcycle) engines, or at least the ones we are using, have bearings that rely on small cylinders or balls that rotate between two sleeves. If you get the surface between these two rolling points too slick, the ball/ cylinder wont rotate, it slides. This will flat spot the bearing, thus creating slop. Under the pressures exerted from the internals ( crank ), this slop becomes so bad that the engine becomes junk. He says that the shop he works at gets many engines in this condition, and there is nothing that can be done to them. They just junk em.
Bottom line, oils designed for use in Automobiles are for Water Cooled engines. The Additives or chemical make up of the diesel rated oils apherantly must be compatible with the bearing set up in our air cooled engines.
All I know is that I have used synthetic in my cars for 100's of thousands of miles, and I believe.
I have used a synthetic (special formulas, not automotive ) oil in my racing carts, and have had great results in terms of wear. I also know from these air cooled racing engines that I could NOT use synthetic oil until I got the engine broke in, usually a complete race event, sometimes two.
I presently have castrol diesel rated dino in my 12r @ 2500 miles, and intend to switch to a motorcycle rated synthetic @ 3500. |
Kevyn
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 08:56 am: |
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I think that story about bearings getting flat spots because synthetics are 'too slippery' is a myth...
If your friend has seen this himself, I for one would like to see the pictures. I'm sure the oil companies manufacturing and distributing synthetic oils would like to have an engine or two that has 'flatted' bearings to examine.
Synthetic oils have been put through amazingly rigorous testing under conditions so far out of ordinary as well as under conditions completely ordinary and never have I heard of bearings becoming 'flattened' or even worn beyond acceptable tolerances.
But, hey what the heck do I know. I'm still searching for my files on synthetic oils and their
mineral compositions and wear testing compared to ordinary non-synthetic oils.
Perhaps Mr. Wilson can shed some enlightenment on this often confusing and controversial topic. |
Kevyn
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 09:24 am: |
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From Speedzilla motorcycle forum...
The Case for Using Mobil 1 15W-50 Automobile Oil in a Motorcycle
Manufacturers' Recommendation
Most motorcycle manufacturers recommends motorcycle-specific oil, pointing out that car motor oils have been reformulated and no longer meet the needs of motorcycle engines. Oddly enough, they usually make no distinction between the use of synthetic or petroleum-based oils even though it's an established fact that synthetic oils are a better lubricant. Full synthetic oils offer truly significant advantages, due to their superior high temperature oxidation resistance, high film strength, very low tendency to form deposits, stable viscosity base, and low temperature flow characteristics as compared to traditional petroleum-based oils. Yada, yada, yada ...
They also make no distinction between petroleum and synthetic oil when recommending oil change schedules even though the oil manufacturers suggest that synthetics can be run two-to-three times the mileage of petroleum oils between changes. The oil drain interval that is specified in the owner's manual is for what is called normal service. Normal service is defined as the engine being at normal operating temperature, at highway speeds, and in a dust-free environment. Stop and go, city driving, trips of less than ten miles, or extreme heat or cold puts the oil change interval into the severe service category, which has a shorter recommended change interval. So, manufacturers are saying to change your oil even more often anyway because no motorcycle experiences only normal service conditions.
Consequently, longer drain intervals should not be used to balance out the higher cost of the synthetics. Synthetic oil can be considered cost-effective only if the potentially higher rebuild and repair costs associated with increased engine wear are factored in. There is no convincing evidence, so far, that synthetic oils lowers these costs in motorcycle engines.
Anti-Wear Additives
According to their manufacturers, motorcycle-specific oils are claimed to be formulated with additives that reduce engine wear. Specifically, they point to the use of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) as the prime anti-wear additive used in all engine oils. ZDDP, however, contains phosphorous that has a life-shortening effect on the catalysts used in exhaust emission equipment, first only on cars, but now more recently on motorcycles. So the Environmental Protection Agency mandated a reduction (from a maximum of 0.12% down to 0.10%) of anti-wear additives containing phosphorous in automobile-specific engine oils.
It's important to note that this reduction was only required for the "energy conserving" lower oil viscosities of 0W-20 through 10W-30. The thicker oils were not required to meet this lowered phosphorus level. That is not to say that oil manufacturers won't lower the ZDDP levels in their 40 and 50 weight viscosity oils in the future. Since additives cost the oil companies money, if they feel that they can get by with less, they probably will be inclined to do so. Also, standardizing the additive packages across all viscosities would also simplify their production process. It's important to note here that, formulating oil with higher levels of anti-wear compounds than is needed, simply results in unnecessary combustion chamber deposits. Which is why most oil companies LOWERED anti-wear compound levels even before EPA required it.
So far however, tests have shown that automobile-specific Mobil 1 15W-50 (a viscosity exempted from the mandated reduction) has had no change in phosphorous level in its formulation. Further, Motorcycle Consumer News tests have shown that after the EPA-mandated reduction, Mobil 1 motorcycle-specific oil has now only about 15% more phosphorus than automobile-specific Mobil 1 15W-50 and about 6% more zinc.
Keep in mind however that, even though automobile oils now contain somewhat lower levels of ZDDP, Exxon-Mobil still states that Mobil 1 automobile oils "exceed the most-demanding protection requirements of modern, high-reving, powerful 4-stroke automobile engines ... yada, yada, yada." So, where's the reason to believe that the lubrication requirements of street motorcycles is measurably different? It seems clear that the current anti-wear additive levels in modern synthetics (both automotive and motorcycle blends) provide greater protection than required in any high performance motorcycle engine during the suggested oil change interval.
The oil manufacturer's advertising that directly equates reduction in engine wear with the tiny percent changes of ZDDP in the oil is misleading the consumer at best. It's well known that majority of engine wear is known to more likely occurring during the metal-to-metal contact of a cold start, an operating condition best handled by a synthetic oil's very high film strength properties. Increasing the amount of ZDDP in the oil does no good if there's no oil coating there at startup.
Catalytic Converter Models
The latest models are now being shipped equipped with catalytic converters. Since motorcycle-specific oils with higher levels of phosphorus are now verboten by EPA for use in these models, I'm curious what oil the bike makers will now recommend? Maybe automobile-specific Mobil 1 15W-50.
Friction Modifiers
Exxon-Mobil claims, as a selling point, that the formulation of motorcycle-specific Mobil 1 MX4T has none (?) of the oil additives called friction modifiers (usually molybdenum-based but not necessarily) that could lead to clutch slippage in some wet-clutch motorcycles. This is not an concern, of course, for dry clutch models. But, this IS supposed to be the current compelling reason to avoid some automobile-specific formulations of Mobil 1 that now contain friction modifiers to meet fuel economy mandates, when previously they did not. At it turns out, wet-clutch slippage can be a problem, and seen more often when you use the lower viscosity 10W-30 Mobil 1 and other oils that are designated "Energy-Conserving" on the bottle. As a perspective on this issue, a Oct 2000 Motorcycle Consumer News test showed that the molybdenum content of Mobil 1 MX4T motorcycle-specific oil is 5 ppm and 11 ppm for Mobil 1 15W-50 automobile-specific oil.
Energy-Conserving Oils
Combine a lower viscosity oil with a formulation that includes additional quantities of molybdenum-based friction modifiers and you get the Energy-Conserving designation in the API Service label on the back of the container.
But, automobile-specific 15W-50 Mobil 1 doesn't carry this designation ... because of its higher viscosity. A higher viscosity oil's resistance to flow is the reason why automobile-specific oils that are not energy conserving have been used successfully in wet-clutch motorcycles without slippage problems. So 15W-50 Mobil 1 works fine in wet clutches. Keep in mind however, that because motor oils loose 30% (or more) of their viscosity in the first 1,500 miles, you will tend toward wet-clutch slippage later if you prolong your oil change interval.
Viscosity Retention
A frequent marketing claim made for motorcycle-specific oils is that they retain their viscosity longer than automotive oils when used in a motorcycle. That is, motorcycle-specific oils contain large amounts of expensive, shear-stable polymers that better resist the punishment put on the oil by the motorcycle's transmission, thus retaining their viscosity longer and better than automotive oils would under the same conditions.
Nevertheless, when tested by MCN, the best-performing oil of the group tested was Mobil 1 automotive oil. Based on their test results, here's their advice:
1. Use a synthetic oil. The viscosity of synthetic-based oils generally drops more slowly than that of petroleum-based oils in the same application. There is no evidence that motorcycle-specific synthetics out-perform their automotive counterparts in viscosity retention when used in a motorcycle.
2. Change your oil more frequently, and more often than 3,000 mile intervals that is normal for cars. Motorcycles are somewhat harder on an oil's viscosity retention properties than cars. (The gears in the transmission are probably the significant factor in cutting the longer oil molecules into shorter pieces that are less viscous.)
3. Use the Mobil 1 in the 15W-50 viscosity only. The recent reformulation of thinner viscosity versions of Mobil 1 make them inappropriate for both wet and dry clutch applications.
Better Detergent Additives
Exxon-Mobil claims, also as a selling point, that Mobil 1 MX4T is specifically designed for sport bike needs and therefore uses a different dispersant/detergent technology for "better high-temperature performance and engine cleanliness." Without an explanation of this technology it's hard to be specific here but one thing is certain. Water-cooled motorcycles operate at similar temperatures as cars do so this presents no obvious advantage here. The dispersant/detergent issue is probably more directed at wet-clutch designs where abrasive friction material particles are suspended in the engine lubricating oil, so there's no distinct advantage to dry-clutch motorcycles. Changing your oil frequently negates this issue.
Marketing
Separating the oil manufacturers' marketing hype from fact is difficult for the consumer. Given that the role of marketing is to enhance their oil's image and persuade you to switch to it, be sceptical when presented with unsupported claims.
A tactic often taken is: more is better. In this case, if the higher levels of anti-wear compounds advertised in motorcycle specific oils are good, still more is better, right? Maybe, but using oil with higher levels of anti-wear compounds - than needed - will cause increased combustion chamber deposits. That is why most oil companies LOWERED anti-wear levels before the government mandates intended to protect catalytic converters.
Another approach, enhancing their product's status through premium pricing and sponsorships (that are essentially paid endorsements) are effective ways of positioning their product to convince you, the consumer, that you're getting the very best when you buy it.
If you're not a product engineer, guidance from sources like Consumer Reports can be useful here in making informed decisions. For example, they did a quality comparison of several products a few years back and found that the less expensive products often worked the best and had the highest quality, but noted that people tended to buy the more expensive products because they thought they would be better.
Keep in mind that your dealer's will first recommend what they sell, and it's natural to expect that they'll try to sell products with the highest profit margin, all other things being equal.
Bottom Line
The bottom line here is, to get the best protection, you need to change any oil frequently. Changing your oil serves to remove abrasive dust ingested from the air, from (wet) clutch wear and harmful combustion by-products from the engine that accelerate wear. Studies have shown that most motor oils loose 30% of their viscosity in the first 1,500 miles.
So for the best motorcycle engine protection, dry clutch or wet clutch, I recommend (and use) the less expensive 15W-50 weight (remember ONLY 15W-50) automobile-specific Mobil 1 and change it every 1,500 to 2,000 miles.
Two Rules:
• Buy a full-synthetic 50-weight oil from a major manufacturer
• Change it every 1,500 - 3,000 miles, no more |
Kevyn
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 09:25 am: |
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Still doesn't address the 'bearing flattening' myth... or the diesel grade oils information... |
Kevyn
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 09:35 am: |
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from the Buell 1999 M2 Maintenance manual under Engine Lubrication System 1.5 page 1-13:
...If it is necessary to add oil and Harley- Davidson oil is not available, use an oil certified for diesel engines. Acceptable diesel engine oil designations include CE, CF, CF-4, and CG-4. The preferred viscosities for the diesel engine oils in descending order, are 20W-50, 15W-40 and 10W-40. As soon as possible, see your Buell dealer to change back to 100 percent Harley-Davidson oil.
Granted, the manual calls for adding diesel grade oils only when HD oil is not available but they are suggesting diesel oil ahead of regular automotive oils... |
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