| Author | Message | ||
     Torquehd |
Regarding priests not marrying, Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. You wonder why priests started doing little boys? Because they were forbidden from getting fulfillment in their own beds. To quote John Proctor's character from the Crucible "In the proper place—where my beasts are bedded." There's no point in doing something to show others how holy you are. Especially if it's counterproductive. | ||
| H0gwash |
Gay sex is for recreational and not procreational purposes. Unlike Biblical times, I don't think the human race is going extinct any time soon. I think a little less procreation is the natural order. I don't think we have to agree on this. It is raining heavily in Sacramento tonight and I went to work without an umbrella. If I had a chair that was light enough I really might have used it as an umbrella tonight. | ||
| H0gwash |
Some displays of dominance are very recreational. YMMV | ||
| Aesquire |
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| Aesquire |
http://www.elitereaders.com/japan-chair-umbrella/ | ||
| Hootowl |
Pfft. Japanese doesn't count. We're talking about a place where you can buy used schoolgirl panties from a vending machine. | ||
| H0gwash |
I'm a fan of Gaetano Pesce but did not know the picture was of his work. | ||
| Aesquire |
I'll have to look him up. When I moved into my house I had some hand me down furniture & no thoughts on style, despite reading Architectural Digest & This Old House. Ranch. Generic. One of. Then a buddy gave me a pair of Thonet bent wood chairs he bought at a nunnery auction. So I went Jetsons. Or scandhovian modern. Saarinen coffee table, tulip chairs & office chairs for kitchen table, etc. I'd get a womb chair but original is $4k & Chinese knockoffs are a grand. Got 3 old four leg office chairs & had them re foamed and covered in NOS Ray Eames fabric. I have friends with taste even if I lack any. Oh.... Ikea book shelves everywhere. Poang chairs too. Cheaper to drive to closest U.S. store in Pittsburgh than to ship. And the micro brewery in Slippery Rock is well worth the diversion off rt. 79. Well worth it. Great sandwiches. | ||
| Mackja |
Torquehd you just don't get it, your use of scripture takes things out of context and makes no sense. If man cannot reason then he is not made in the image of God, reason is the God given ability to know and love God, reason it what makes us human and not just another animal. Just because you have never studied or know anything about natural law, aka the moral law or divine law does not mean it dies not exist. Any ordained minister that attended a prominent seminary understands this. All of them studied St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas, the two most influential theologians in the history of the Church. Unfortunately you are locked into a false belief of the Bible only, which goes against what the Bible actually tells us, John 21:24-25 2 It is the same disciple that bears witness of all this and has written the story of it; and we know well that his witness is truthful. 25 There is much else besides that Jesus did; if all of it were put in writing, I do not think the world itself would contain the books which would have to be written. which tells us their is more, once again Paul tells us in 2nd Thessalonians 2-15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. Paul says that not only what the Church has written but anything orally transmitted is authoritative. The Church is built on Jesus Christ and the apostles, Peter and the apostles where given the authority of service and no one else. 1st Tim 3:15 so that, if I am slow in coming, thou mayest be in no doubt over the conduct that is expected of thee in God’s household. By that I mean the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation upon which the truth rest, and our Lord guaranteed that this Church built on the foundation of the apostles would never error or be drawn in, Matt 16-18 And I tell thee this in my turn, that thou art Peter, and it is upon this rock that I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Your dogmatic fundamentalist attitude blinds you. Believe it or not the Church did not start in the 16th century, it started 2016 years ago. You have never read any of the apostolic father who where ordained by the apostle themselves, St Ignatius of Antioch, St Justin Martyr, St Polycarp and St Irenaeus of Lyons, reading them will show that the early Church did not believe as you do. The great convert to Catholicism Cardinal John Henry Newman said "to be deep in history is to cease to be protestant. As far as celibacy is concerned it is a practice not a doctrine, big difference, and it is also practiced among the Orthodox churches as well, although married men can become priest, once a priest they cannot marry, and no married priest can become a Bishop. We do have married priest in the Catholic Church, hundreds of Anglican priest who have come into the Church are married. Paul speaks clearly on the subject in 1st Corinthians chapter 7. I have been respectful in all my post, I have many friends who are pastors in protestant communities, we share, discuss and pray together out of love and respect. You have made a direct attack on my belief and the Church by trying to disrespect her and the 1.2 billion faithful with your statement about priest scandal, obviously you are oblivious to the 5000 plus molestations by protestant pastors each year, your communities hide behind there independence as an excuse for not doing anything about it, but lets not throw stones. The Church is a divine institution because it is the person of Christ, but filled with sinners who have dirty and messy lives who rely on Gods immense love and mercy to obtain salvation. We must also express Gods love and mercy to our brothers and sisters. As all are my brothers and sisters, and I am called to love every one, does not mean I have to like anyone. By your statement you deliberately set out to cause pain and shame on me and all of those faithful, this is not how one should treat a brother. I was enjoying this thread, but no longer. It is like me saying all baptist are bad because of all those Baptist minister who belonged to the KKK and assisted in all those lynchings. While many did this does not disparage all of the other good Baptist who tried to live out the Gospel each day. Just as some priest did horrible sinful things, every day hundred of thousands of priest, and religious live out the Gospel each and every day. Pax domini sit semper vobiscum, and Merry Christ-Mass. | ||
| Mackja |
Hahaha love the chair, that is funny. great sense of humor!!! | ||
| Torquehd |
Mack, Slow down. I did not attack you, or Catholics. I addressed the earlier mention of Catholic priests being forbidden from marriage. It used to be that married men could not be priests; that was changed awhile back by special exception, according to a Catholic priest who I had several discussions with who worked at the local HD dealership with me. If you want to say I attacked something, that's fine. I attacked a doctrine that's not in the bible, and has been a stumbling block. And no, I am not familiar with protestant rapes. Do they occur? Probably, because the hearts of men are just wicked. But I have not seen any in the news, and that's not what was brought up in an earlier post. I was addressing something right out of the thread. Regarding natural law or moral law, you can take it or leave it, you're much more learned than I am, and neither one of us are going to change the other one. I will say that any doctrine requires indoctrination Whether that's natural law or karma or "Sola Scriptura". If that offends you, you need thicker skin. Regarding your citations from the bible - The early church, founded by the apostles before the New Testament was a book. Yes, those folks who walked with Jesus would have a much better understanding of The Word (Made Flesh) than I do. I wish I could have been there. They would have been able to pass along orally and traditionally what I can only read about now, and then some. Mack, I was not trying to attack you. For pete's sake, I didn't even know you were a Catholic. But I stand by my comments, and I won't apologize for addressing that which is or is not biblical. There are lots of good Catholics, and some bad. There are lots of good Baptists, and some bad. I used to be a Baptist but now I reject denominational division. Get over yourselves and look to the Word (see John 1:1 - the Word is God, and is Jesus, and is truth, and is love), not your own understanding. Chuck Smith, the founder of Calvary Chapel (which is the closest "denomination" to "nondenominational"), said, "where the bible is silent, I will be silent". That's a painful process to emulate, but I'm still growing. | ||
| H0gwash |
IMHO spirituality is not a math problem where there is only 1 correct answer. There is more than 1 correct interpretation of the bible. | ||
| Torquehd |
Hog, can you give me an example and explanation? I'm all for discourse; if you make an assertion please talk it through. | ||
| Sifo |
"...The church never has... told you whom you can marry outside of their church. The government however, got involved in marriage, expressly to do exactly that." I will restate: Churches have every right to marry whomever they feel is worthy within church walls. The government has every right to marry whomever they feel is worthy outside of those church walls and within their jurisdiction. If you are referring to the Federal government, you couldn't be more wrong. The Federal government has no authority to marry anyone. That authority lies with the states. Sadly, as both governments struggle for more and more control over the people, the people have less and less control. Prior to states getting in the business of marriage, you had true equality. Since then, not so much. Funny how people always seem to look for yet more legislation to fix all the legislation that has turned life into a ridiculous mass of arbitrary and conflicting set of rules for us to try to live with. | ||
| Crusty |
There oughtta be a law against that. | ||
| Mackja |
You must understand the priest scandal hit home in a very painful way, the news love to attack the Catholic Church because its teaching on marriage, sexuality, abortion, divorce and euthanasia among others go against the grain of society. Once more celibacy is not a doctrine. Doctrine only comes about when an accepted teaching is questioned. When the trinity the divinity,and the nature of Christ was questioned doctrine was developed and made dogma. What you claim to un-biblical is a matter of understanding. Nothing in natural law violates scripture in any way, it supports it. As far as denomination go, I agree denominations are not Biblical. The etymology of the word is to separate from the whole. Lets face the facts, the early Church is the Catholic Church, St Ignatius of Antioch 3rd Bishop of Antioch ordained by John the apostle in 97 AD on his way to the colosseum to be executed wrote several letters to the churhes under his care, he wrote to the Smyrnaeans he says "Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. Chapter 9. Honour the bishop Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for you are worthy. You have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ [shall refresh] you. You have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while you endure all things, you shall attain unto Him. Here you can clearly see quite a difference in how you understand the scriptures on several areas vs how the apostle taught. All who have separated from the unity of the universal Church with Peter as its visible head, for he was appointed by Christ Himself has become a denomination. The Catholic Church along with the Orthodox (even though we are still in schism) are the continuation of the Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself. The word of God is love, Jesus is the truth, and we must take all of scripture not just parts of it that justify our own understandings, but that takes being taught, as the Ethiopian said to phillip Acts 8:26 30-31 "30 And Philip, as he ran up, heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and asked, Canst thou understand what thou art reading? 31 How could I, said he, without someone to guide me? And he entreated Philip to come up and sit beside him. We must follow the apostolic teaching, for it was the Church that came first, taught, preserved and passed on the faith, it is by this Apostolic Tradition that we have the Bible today. As I mentioned if one follows scripture fully then one must accept Christ words that His Church will never be drawn in, and that He would protect it from error. Our greatest American thinker Orestes Brownson stated, "their can only be one truth, for if their is more than one truth all truth is false". While scripture speaks to us in many was, and can have multiple meanings, as long as it does not contradict the truth of the faith that is fine. Their are many spiritualities in the Church, and lived by many communities of monks, nuns and laity, together they live out the Gospel daily, and follow the command that the Church pray continuously 24 hour a day, 365 days a year. I know that all of our separated bretheren love the Lord, this I willnever question, but our Lord wanted unity, He said, I pray Father that they all may be one, as I am in You and You are in Me", this unity is what we must all work towards. We have made geat strides, but much more work needs to be done. Officially the Reformation is over, in 1999 the Lutheran church signed a joint declaration of agreement on the doctrine of Justification with the Catholic Church, other communities have signed on as well. Through the theological commissions between the Catholic and Orthodox Chruches an agreement has been reached on the Primacy of Peter and his successors the Bishop of Rome or Pope. Restoration of unity of the ancient Church's will be the main impetus for full and visible unity in the Church. | ||
| Airbozo |
"Airbozo, my daughter is 19 months old, she only knows what is natural. When she gets mad, she hits. When she wants something, she will try to take it out of your hands. That's not a mental disorder, that's a human acting naturally before learning." Fair enough. I have seen similar behavior in a few children, but not all. I am by no means an expert though. Usually children learn behavior from a very young age, but not what society expects from them until later. If all children acted that way then it would correlate more. The SO can justifiably be considered an expert on child behavior, autism and other learning disorders and her observation of older children with similar traits does point towards mental issues. This is a great topic for our dinner discussion tonight. FWIW, she has several degrees and certifications in child behavior and special education as well as 20 years experience (several of hose years as the department head). She loves all of her kids and will do just about anything to help them succeed, not just in school, but life in general. I understand Hogwash's statement. Spirituality and religion are not the same thing though. Some find spirituality in a religious tome and some in other places. | ||
| Torquehd |
Wow, first I apologize for the thread drift. Secondly, if you're a Catholic and are afraid of being offended, just hit the back button. Don't even read this post, you will be offended. the early Church is the Catholic Church, I have a good friend who is Catholic. He and I have debated at length; I'm aware of what the Catholic church teaches, and I vehemently disagree with many of their beliefs. The internet is a messy place to hash these things out, but this is a forum, and open discussion is the purpose of us posting here. So, half reluctantly, here are a few examples: The Pope is the vicar of Christ, and is infallible. Clearly contradicts with the many verses that plainly state that no one is without sin, and God is no respecter of persons. Prayers can be routed through Jesus, or Mary, or a number or dead guys. Contradicts 1 tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; And in John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jesus never said that anyone would be able to turn regular bread or juice into his flesh and blood. He never told anyone to go "make" holy water. Jesus never said to deny believers from taking part in communion just because they went to a different church (I had that one happen to me - the priest didn't give a DAMN whether or not I believed in Jesus. He looked pissed off when I didn't hold my hands just right, and rudely said, "you're not a Catholic? I can't give this to you. There's a prayer that I can say for you later). Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. When the pope is the "holy father". AND, one of the strongest evidences that there's something amiss with the Catholic church - think about the persecution of Christians outside of the Catholic Church that lasted for ~ a century. Anyone who decided that they could get to Jesus outside of the catholic church was tortured, murdered, it's absolutely disgusting to see documentaries on the cruel instruments used to attempt to terrorize "perfectly good" Christians into becoming Catholics. Tens of millions of people have been killed simply for refusing to confess that the Catholic church is the only way to God. The citing of some letter that was not included in scripture is absolutely not evidence that we have to do everything under the yoke of a "bishop" (there's probably a reason it's not in the bible!). That is so contrary to what Jesus taught. All who have separated from the unity of the universal Church with Peter as its visible head Cor 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Brother, Peter AINT the head of the church! JESUS CHRIST is. Jesus never preached anything about a universal or catholic church. Paul and Peter split up and took their ministries to different locations; does that mean that only people under Peter's chain of command are the true body of Christ? Jesus was always opposed to the aristocracy of the pharisees. It seems so telling. One of the most well known and beautiful verses in all the bible, John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Just like that and you're in. Believe in Jesus. It doesn't say you have to go to confession, or take part in some eucharist ceremony. You sure don't have to bow to some image or man. Another thing that really bothers me about the catholic church is all of the occult symbolism. You walk down the aisle and bow to an image before you sit down. Wow that made me freaking uncomfortable the first time I went to a Catholic funeral; the only thing that kept me from running out the back door was my respect for my friend who died, and his family and friends. The Catholic church is inundated with graven images and it gives me the creeps. Plus the sun occultly inscribed into all of the imagery, I can not help but give heed to the theories that there is some occult worship of creature rather than Creator going on. Bowing to images, bowing to the sun, praying to the queen of heaven (see the book of Jeremiah for that one). Like I said, my good friend and I have talked at length on all of these subjects. He digresses into irrelevancies, in my opinion, on these subjects. He cites the opinion of folks who, long ago, were part of the "if you're not Catholic we have an obligation to kill you" hierarchy. I know I'm not going to convince you. But I have to say I tried. | ||
| H0gwash |
"...can you give me an example and explanation? " Quite literally the Bible is not a math equation. There is a great lack of precision in the bible and you're trying to measure a very subtle thing. I think I finally concluded a decade later that it wasn't precision that was important. It was poetry, and that was its strength. You can certainly argue the original author's *true* intent scholastically, but I was usually more interested in the differences between the various schools of thoughts that developed around the piece which gave the piece a range of meanings. | ||
| Torquehd |
Quite literally the Bible is not a math equation. There is a great lack of precision in the bible and you're trying to measure a very subtle thing. I think I finally concluded a decade later that it wasn't precision that was important. It was poetry, and that was its strength. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. In the bible exists both logic and poetry. The poetry isn't iambic pentameter but maybe it rhymed in Hebrew; i don't speak hebrew so I don't know. I tune in more to the logic. Man is sinful; God is perfect; heaven is perfect. If sin enters heaven, then it is not perfect. But Jesus died and rose again to pay man's debt, cancelling the value of his sin. Therefore man through Jesus can go to heaven. That's more beautiful than anything I ever heard in HS English class. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Never heard this anywhere but a class in College but... Backstory, I was raised Catholic but read a book by Michener, The Source, that changed my views on religion. Senior year of High School. Had a prof, in Zen and Tao - a poli-sci class say there was evidence that Jesus Christ hitched a caravan ride, after changing water to wine, and wound up in Tibet for a few years. Claims he achieved a high standing in the Buddhist monks before returning to the "Holy Land". Makes a lot of sense as His teachings were very much in line with Zen and only diametrically opposed to those ideas in the region... More food for thought. Z | ||
| Torquehd |
Was that before or after he got abducted by ancient aliens? Before or after he had secret wives and kids that weren't recorded anywhere in history except a Dan Brown book? before or after he went on a top secret mission to convert Native Americans who hid the whole thing from European settlers? It's a pretty common thing for Jesus to have some association to "your" religion. Just ask Mohammed, or Joseph Smith, or Charles Taze Russell, or David Koresh or Elrond (i mean L. Ron) Hubbard. | ||
| H0gwash |
"...That authority lies with the states" Whoever it was I thank them for extending secular marriage to gays to automatically give visitation rights in a hospital and automatic protection of assets. Yes, trusts also do the trick but we don't raise our kids to say "I love you so much let's draw up a trust and name each other as our benefactors" | ||
| Blake |
Gerard, That's the best way I've heard the point presented, but securing those rights in "civil union" solved that problem, yet that still wasn't good enough. I actually agree with you that some scripture can have multiple true meanings in that it may have multiple layers of truth. So long as they are not contradictory, that is not a problem. Did you watch that video, The Prodigal God? | ||
| Blake |
Here's the link again: https://youtu.be/c1ZdlXehqzk | ||
| Blake |
>>> IMHO spirituality is not a math problem where there is only 1 correct answer. Even some math problems have multiple true answers. Example: x2 = 4 where solving for x yields two correct answers, +2 and -2. In fact some math problems have essentially an infinite number of correct answers. Consider the equations describing a plane and a sphere that intersects said plane. Write each in terms of "z", then set them equal and solve for the point of intersection. The answer is not a single point, but a circular slice of the plane comprised theoretically of an infinite number points. | ||
| Blake |
Jesse, If we accept/believe-in Christ, does that mean we know and love Him? And if we believe-in, know, and love Him, does that mean we follow Him? And if we believe-in, know, love, and follow Him, does that mean we heed Him? My point, with which I'm sure you'll agree, is that there's a WHOLE LOT to unpack from John 3:16. I think that's what Gerard means at least in part when he says that it's not like a math problem. As far as an example goes, The above video I posted of Tim Keller's presentation and interpretation of the parable of the Prodigal Son is different than what some others take from it. But both can be correct. | ||
| Blake |
Zac, Some aspects of Christ's teaching are shared with other religious faiths, including zen, but there are glaring irrreconcilable differences at the very heart of what Christ taught compared to any other religious faith. I'll leave it to you to google if you're interested. Of course the Christian sources will most emphatically make the case. LOL | ||
| H0gwash |
Your mathematics is very correct. I recall the set of all true answers is called the locus. An interesting aside is that the set of all points equidistant from a point can be equally described as a singular equation, or as an infinite set of points, they are the same truth, the difference is in the expression of the idea. (Message edited by h0gwash on December 17, 2016) | ||
| Hootowl |
"the set of all points equidistant from a point can be equally described as a singular equation" Circular logic? |
