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Hammer71
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 07:59 pm: | 
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Agreed |
Psykick_machanik
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 09:17 pm: |
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Being so far away, hearing the fear in my wifes voice and not being there for my family will haunt me for a long time to come.
This public forum is my therapy to get past the "What ifs". ALL of your input and stories have helped me greatly, and for that i am incredibly grateful.
Thank you
On a side note seeing the situation from anothers viewpoint is interesting but what doesnt sound like much "standing behind the house and sitting in your jeep" is from my standpoint a VERY BIG deal.
The guy, 6'3" of him was about 8' away from both of my sleeping children, seporated by a window and curtan. Maybe he was l;ooking for something to stand on to get in one of those windows and not admireing the boat.....
The guy "sitting" in my jeep has a long record of vehicle theft (the last one he stole he flipped), domestic assault, and drug charges. So hes not afraid to hit a woman.
Ketchikan is a small island city of 14,000, so we tend to know each other or at least have people that know people. We take crime serious here because it not just happening to some one else.
The reason the gun came into play was because of the stabbing death a year ago in the same senerio. Im not against getting my ass kicked but i refuse to get stabbed. Normaly id have no prob pulling the guy outa the jeep and laying on him (i'm a big fella who's not to bad at judo) till the troopers showed up but now theirs the chance of getting really hurt or killed because the little guy might use his knife.
I'm glad i wasnt here because i would have gone outside and that would have changed how it went down. This ended how it was suposed to. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 09:31 pm: |
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XL1200, so you are saying that if somebody is destroying another persons property, the victim should never have the right to go confront them to try and stop it? I'm not saying go right out there and shoot them, I'm saying go out and stop them from doing the damage they are doing.
Ok, forget property, say they are beating somebody up. Clearly without the intention to kill, but clearly beating somebody up. Should you have to sit idly by then as well?
Personally, I have never elected to use force to prevent property damage. I doubt I would, it's not the kind of risk I can effectively manage or that I would willingly choose to take. But if somebody else wanted to go stop a bully (be they beating up somebody else's things, or somebody else's person) and they were equipped and interested in the task, and used appropriate force and good judgement, I would support their rights so long as they were within the law. |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 09:53 pm: |
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I never said the victim doesn't have the right to confront them - all I said was choosing to do so may not be the wisest decision and going in guns-a-blazing is even more unwise.
Stable, reasonable people don't go around breaking other people's stuff. This should cross your mind before you walk out the door all tough-guy like.
Beating somebody up is an entirely different situation and I think you know that. We were talking about property, here, not an individual's safety.
I have no qualms with your last paragraph. Perhaps that's what you intended to say in your prior post, it just didn't read that way.
I just quiver at the thought of people being so quick to use lethal force. Yes, if someone were in my home they would get one chance to leave after being asked and after that the loaded Mossy 500 under the bed sorts out the rest. But someone outside your house, there are better ways to deal with it that keeps everyone (especially yourself and your loved ones) out of any further danger.
I recall just last year sitting at home and hearing someone walk up to my patio, open my screen door and then the door knob started jiggling. There was a moment of panic and I was considering running to the bedroom for the shotgun because I had no idea who it was. It turns out it was just some dim-wit politician leaving flyers in people's front doors. I have no idea why he was touching the knob so deliberately, or why he didn't knock or ring the bell first, but I'd sure feel bad if I found all of this out AFTER I pumped 5 or 6 ounces of buck shot into him. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:55 pm: |
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The problem with going outside your home and confronting someone who may be doing, or planning on doing damage to property, or even just hanging out, is that you have no idea if they will respond in a rational manner. Sure most of the time you will simply chase away the person. Make no mistake about it though, some percentage of the time things will escalate in a very irrational and unpredictable direction. I had the misfortune of experiencing this once first hand when no weapon was involved. I still wound up having to defend myself in court and pay legal fees involved. This was all over a situation that should never have been more than a very minor "take what you are doing elsewhere" sort of situation. It is also not that dissimilar to what it appears George Zimmerman went through.
All I'm saying is that you may be well within your rights to confront someone on your property, it may not always be the best course of action. Keep in mind that the person in question is already doing something that you find to be unacceptable in normal society. Do you now expect this person to act according to what would be expected in normal society? At one time I did expect that. I consider myself just a little bit wiser now. That was an expensive bit of wisdom for me to pick up. It also added a huge amount of stress to my life for many months. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 04:58 pm: |
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Put a camera system on you house. They can be very simple not so expensive. Next call the police. There response time is usually less the n the time it may take you to wrestle around with someone you have no idea what they could do. The camera has all the proof. I use them weekly at the bar for all sorts of reasons just to run a tight ship at the bar. |
Bob_thompson
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 11:34 am: |
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One last post and I'm outa here. Please, before any further discussion, read the book Court talked about; "In the gravest extreme" by Massad Ayoob. Some awful good points made by his tremendous expertise. And much psychology also.
Any my own three defenses in order of response. 1. Motion sensor, front and back of the house, that triggers full flood lights and brings on a radio tuned to a 24 hour talk show turned up loud to awaken us if we're sleeping and let the bad guy know. 2. My beautiful 90lb. Alaskan Malamute, pictured below. He's a pussycat but can be very intimidating, obviously! And finally 3. My weapons, including pepper spray, for the unarmed intruder, for "the gravest extreme". We're in a pretty good neighborhood so I've never gotton past stage 1 but even thats frightening at 4:00am. Its usually a cat out over night.
And finally one last item Massad Ayoob talks about in his book; if you do encounter someone outside your door that seems intent on wrong doing grab your weapon and cell phone and standing aside from the direct front of that door say loudly "I have a gun and am calling the police right now". That in itself can quell any further response from either him or you...........thankfully, and end the threat with no bad consequences to either. Done, Bob
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Cowboy
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 12:00 pm: |
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I will be going This weekend to pick up my new walther ppk/s (380), as mny main carry is a Glock 40 and the walther is a little lite I will only use it for wednesday nite [rayer meeting and church socials. |
Xdigitalx
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 01:21 pm: |
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I been looking at revolvers for home defense and range shooting I may end up choosing either a S&W Governer, 327 TRR8 or possibly a Chiappa Rhino. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 03:09 pm: |
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My wife has a TRR8. It's a great piece. Hopelessly huge for concealed carry, but for a home defense revolver, an 8 shooter is nice. Very nice for target practice too. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 03:18 pm: |
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" but I'd sure feel bad if I found all of this out AFTER I pumped 5 or 6 ounces of buck shot into him"
But...you said it was a politician, so what's the problem?  |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 05:04 pm: |
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#1 Hoot   |
Dj66ftw
| | Posted on Friday, August 03, 2012 - 11:45 pm: |
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We have no right to kill people over material property, shoot the legs out from under them. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Saturday, August 04, 2012 - 12:31 am: |
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What do you think will happen when you shoot to protect property? Current example from FL is you get arrested and face 15 years in jail. No doubt he will also get sued in civil court by the jackwagon that was robing him.
http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/08/03/florida-homeo wner-arrested-for-shooting-burglars/#more-92536 |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Saturday, August 04, 2012 - 03:52 pm: |
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Depends on what state you're in.
In Texas, you can shoot to defend your property.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_con troversy
They weren't even going to charge him until Sharpton et al got involved and pressured the prosecutor into it. Hmmm, history repeats itself. A grand jury declined to charge him. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Saturday, August 04, 2012 - 03:54 pm: |
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Psykick, I don't think I'd have shot, but I'd not have been cheerful. Thank the Gods that your family came through ok.
Massad Ayoob's works should be a must read when purchasing a gun....
There are other authors and sources to help shape your mental preparation for bad things happening. It's YOUR duty to your society and family to think, rationally, ahead of time, about what you can/can't will/won't do.
I have no use for a Man that won't defend his family.
I have no use for those that would harm another without just cause.
A few thought that some will disagree with.
never shoot to wound. That's an idiotic, hollywood thing.
Even a small bullet can cripple for life. A leg shot can result in amputation and death, and a shoulder shot so popular in movies is usually a life time cripple with constant pain.
If you are willing to use violence to defend you and yours, accept that it may be lethal force. ( you and yours is you and family/friends, not your lawn mower )
Know your local laws. Yes, it may be "better to be tried by 12 than buried by 6" but home with family beats both.
Often, inside rules are far different than outside rules. Some states require retreat. Know what that means.
Would I have shot a guy stealing my car? I hope not. I have no problem ( legal/moral ) with telling that guy to go away, and if he did, I'd let him. If he shot at me for being rude to him, that changes the rules. ( and he may. Someone crawling into your car at night isn't following societal norms, eh? )
Would I shoot a guy breaking into a house he knows is occupied? Probably. If threatened. That guy is way off normal rules of politeness.
We live in a world where a "all you kids get offa my lawn" can get your house burned down, so adjust your responses to the world you are in. 19th century property attitudes sometimes clash badly with 21st century social education. ( go ahead, blame the schools.... and the lack of parents.... )
My living room defense weapon is a 7th century battle axe. Pretty useless against an Ak74 from across the street, but it's not for that. ( I assume a driveby shooting will be over before I can produce and aim a gun, so don't worry about that, I assume armed assault by a platoon of soldiers low probability too )
For Coyote attacks on the neighbor's dogs or kids, or other outdoor problems, a shotgun with attached light is available in moments, but not loaded on the wall. ( local locking storage laws )
Ymmv.
Macho is bullcrap in the real world.
People are important. Stuff can be replaced. |
Dj66ftw
| | Posted on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 01:14 am: |
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Sure,if my dogs wake me up and i find someone trying to steal my bike, first i should let them loose, then go see what's left with my bat in one hand and my gun in the other so i can properly respond to the level of threat involved. If my loved ones were at risk,skip the bat. |
D_adams
| | Posted on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 06:17 am: |
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quote:If my loved ones were at risk,skip the bat.
I'd skip the dogs as well. |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 10:39 am: |
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At my house hurt the dogs and the perp would be in dealt with FARGO style in the chipper while still alive. |
Bob_thompson
| | Posted on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 10:48 am: |
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Good take on that Dean, but remember; no dog has ever been arrested, let alone tried and convicted of killing someone! Once in a while they do euthanize one for being aggressive however. Just backup your pup, he IS a loved one. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 10:55 am: |
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Good take on that Dean, but remember; no dog has ever been arrested, let alone tried and convicted of killing someone!
Dog? No.
Dog owner? Yes.
You might do well to keep that in mind. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 12:51 pm: |
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Dog? No.
Dog owner? Yes.
You might do well to keep that in mind.
The owner won't. But the dog could and usually gets put down. Actually I have an old neighbor that it had happened to. I bought the type of dogs to be great family pets (and are) but to protect my house from strangers and they will and one has. I do not own a handgun. If it should happen my dogs are what I have and a 911 call.
(Message edited by bads1 on August 05, 2012) |
Sifo
| | Posted on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 01:23 pm: |
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The owner won't.
Not necessarily true.
http://www.sandiegopersonalinjury-law.com/2010/08/ murder-conviction-upheld-in-for-woman-in-fatal-dog -attack-case.shtml
When you send an animal to attack a trespasser, it's not much different than using any other weapon in the eyes of the law. The owner is just as liable as if they had simply shot the trespasser. |
Bob_thompson
| | Posted on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 01:56 pm: |
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Tom (Sifo), I must agree in the law, however it would be hard to find a jury that would convict you if you used a dog to defend yourself or that of your loved ones. It just does not have the stigma associated with it any firearm has especially in liberal communities. And a lawyer would argue its way harder to control a dog guarding his loved ones then it is a gun. And I lived for most of my younger days in Chicago and Lombard, Illinois and have experienced both types of area sentiment. I guess I got caught up with this Utah western philosophy. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 03:08 pm: |
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Bob, I would hope you would be right about the jury. Still, once your life is in the hands of a jury, things have gotten pretty bad for you. You mention "you and your loved ones". I agree whole hartedly, do anything and everything necessary to protect you and your loved ones. I intended my comments more for those who are talking about protecting property from wrongdoers. In my mind those are very different things, especially in the eyes of the law.
Believe it or not, Lombard actually allowed a gun range to open up. Nice range that allows up to 50 cal. rifles. |
Psykick_machanik
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 12:12 pm: |
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The funny part is the wife DID let the dog out after it growled but when it got outside it went over to the guys to get petted!
She's a Golden retriever, what would you expect. That dog wont even chase off the bears, she just hangs out inside like she doesnt hear them trying to get into the trash. My last Golden made sport of running bears off, she LOVED it. I bet $ that SHE would have had those AS$&#%@ running for the trees! |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 12:06 pm: |
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I a word.. NO i would not shoot. If the family was not in danger of them coming in the home nothing i own is worth killing someone over. Once they are in my home, all bets are off! At the very most maybe crack a shot in the yard and scare them off while on phone to 911. |
Xdigitalx
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 07:30 pm: |
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Tonight 9pm EST, on A&E network, All new First 48 hours ... one of the cases is a stand-your-ground case. (knife) |
Xdigitalx
| | Posted on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 05:16 am: |
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They showed a newspaper article with the headline "Stand Your Ground"... as a graphic during the show, it was an actual Martin/Zimmerman article from a newspaper, the story wasn't very similar though. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 07:18 pm: |
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Warning shots can be a bad idea in some circumstances. The use of one can indicate that you were not in fear for your life or of major bodily injury. |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 08:26 pm: |
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yep.. true that Blake. |
Psykick_machanik
| | Posted on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 01:18 pm: |
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If a situation has degraded to the point where a firearm needs to be employed then its going to be used, not just waved around to scare someone off, or to wound them, because the moment that gun is seen the entire dynamic has changed for you and the "perp".
What i have learned from this thread is that im going to exhaust EVERY other means of defense and protection untill the use of deadly force is the ONLY option left. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 07:49 pm: |
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What i have learned from this thread is that im going to exhaust EVERY other means of defense and protection untill the use of deadly force is the ONLY option left.
When you can convince the police and/or a jury that you did that before using the gun, you are very unlikely to be convicted of anything. From there it's just a sliding scale toward being convicted as you fail to exhaust your options.
I really dislike the idea of standing idly by while someone steals or destroys my stuff, but I would dislike going to jail more. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 11:05 pm: |
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Yes, you now grasp the essential, weedhopper.
"What i have learned from this thread is that im going to exhaust EVERY other means of defense and protection untill the use of deadly force is the ONLY option left."
Could not say it better.
That is your responsibility as a citizen. |
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