| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
Well, mostly agree. Their attempts at breaking the molds once in a while (V-Rod, for example) haven't exactly set the world on fire. 100% agree. Why do you think that is? My take is that many dealerships didn't know what to do with it, and mothership advertising focused on heritage. Without HD advertising it in a way that gets interested buyers into the dealer there's no way for the dealer to sell it to their historical customer base. I think Buell had the exact same problem. If you don't advertise the new stuff inside the building, interested buyers will never even see what you have. Traditional customers just had no interest (Sure there's the exception like me and you, but personally I never really felt at home in the HD crowd). On the other hand, the continually refined and updated "retro" look since their buyout from AMF garnered them 25 years of record-setting profits. Hard to argue against that kind of long-term success in a marketing meeting, eh? They did a wonderful job with the marketing. Possibly too good of a job. They pretty much finally caught up with demand, and got the market flooded with product just in time for a bad economy. I won't blame HD for their bad timing, but signs of trouble were there before the customers cash dried up. The economy just made it so that even the most hardened deniers of trouble couldn't deny it any longer. Isn't the Sportster the longest-running motorcycle model in the history of the sport? I believe that's true. It has little in common with it's predecessors though. It's gone from a racing heritage to being solidly a street only bike. Imagine if it had gotten an alloy frame somewhere along the way. Shave the weight, and put it on a suspension that actually works. Even a basic non-adjustable suspension that works would be a huge improvement. Of course the form of the bike will start to change when you do those things and you will have to start advertising yourself as a company of innovation, not of heritage. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Harley has a 25 year business plan that is genius if you are going to do business from 2008 through 1990. Unfortunately, the time frame for their 25 year plan will be doing business from 2010 through 2035. The bikes are great, and people that want them and can afford them are getting exactly what they want. Everyone else is moving on... | ||
| Grancuda |
I don't post much any longer here as I know the badweb has become quite the bash on Harley site since the demise of Buell(despite the majority of advertisers here are Harley Dealerships-go figure that one out) but as a Harley owner I still frequent the site because in the past I have owned 2 Buells, both S1, first was a '96 S1, second was a '98 S1W and maybe in the future another S1 but now I own a 883 Sporty. I really must be missing something because I like the bike, it is a well built, good running bike that handles good but since it is the 883 Iron, it does have limited amount to lean before the pegs hit which hasn't been an issue as I ride on the street, not the track. For me the 883 Sportster is a great bike, not sure what the hang up is with it for some. As far as the retro-classics, I really like the styling that looks like an older bike, if your gonna rag on Harley for making bikes that look like older ones, you can move on to Triumph and MotoGuzi and then you might want to rag on the US automakers with the Challenger, Mustang & Camaro reto muscle cars but that's a different subject. The US economy is in the tank right now and Harley is just suffering though it, you can spin it how ever you want with the dying market and such. Everyone knows the market is bad, I read Suzuki didn't even produce a 2010 lineup for the sportbike line does that mean that the X Generation isn't buying now? To claim Harley makes poor quality bikes is quite a bit of a stretch. This 883 Iron is very well built, the fit and finish of the components is top notch. I have been to the Honda, Suzuki & Yamaha dealerships and was not impressed with the look of their bikes, too much plastic and they look too futuristic, like that hideous M109. I still think Buell would be around today if they hadn't done away with the tube frame  Here is a pic of my ill handling, under-powered sporty  | ||
| Hootowl |
"You see many 47-55 year olds entering motorcycle ownership who have NEVER ridden before or owned a motorcycle?" Yep.. The CEO of HD. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Retro classics are great, but Ducati, Triumph, Moto Guzzi, and Honda (as well as Chevy, Ford, and Chrysler) aren't trying to build an empire on them. I'd love to have a Sport 1000 or Thruxton, but I wouldn't take one to the track. HD used to be at the forefront of technology. HD used to be a shining example of modern ingenuity and American engineering prowess. HD abandoned this path to sell only Heritage. Not to say that engineering advancements haven't been made. Current HD models are the most modern HDs EVER and are fantastically made. The issue is whether the heritage rings with people who didn't ride Harleys in the beginning or remember when they WERE the race/sport bikes. What the age shift signifies the lockstep movement of HD's marketing with the aging of the Baby Boom generation. ALL manufacturers have seen at least some slide of the average buyer age to the right. The difference is the quantity of age "boulders" (younger buyers) slowing the glacial progress to the see. With nothing to slow the progression (back fill lost buyers with younger buyers), what will the sales look like on the back side. The sheer quantities of buyers is being diminished. BMW is seeing the writing on the wall and is working to attract more younger buyers to help slow the post baby boom decline. BMW had one advantage HD doesn't, the reputation of being on the leading edge of technological advancement. When BMW announced that they were planning on entering superbike with a new model, few doubted that they could produce a bike to compete. Some doubted mortals could afford it, but the technological capabilities were never in question. If HD made that same announcement today, no one would believe that they would be able to deliver. Hell, HD just bought the debt of MV and you'd have thought they had soiled a fresh young virgin of the motorcycle world. I don't doubt that HD could fund a radical offering like BMW, but HD's own market research shows that buyers just wouldn't accept it. | ||
| Oddball |
Flipped mirrors, moved speedo and swapped tanks with a 48 owner? | ||
| Yjsrule |
I don't remember saying anything about the build quality of the sporty, I said it was overweight, underpowered and handled like crap. All true compared to any somewhat modern bike out there.  | ||
| Aj_brooklyn |
H-D is just so disapointing ,you want them to be better ,be a good example of american engineering but instead they are just stagnant. They seem to be more interested in paint colors than actual improvements. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
As far as the retro-classics, I really like the styling that looks like an older bike, if your gonna rag on Harley for making bikes that look like older ones, you can move on to Triumph and MotoGuzi and then you might want to rag on the US automakers with the Challenger, Mustang & Camaro reto muscle cars but that's a different subject. I am pretty sure the new camaros, mustangs, and challengers compared to the old ones would be like comparing an xb to a 1950's harley... yes there is SOME similarities in the engine configuration but thats about were it ends. | ||
| Sifo |
I don't think HD needs to start building race bikes, or even street friendly sport bikes. They do need to demonstrate that they aren't actually still making decades old designs though. There will be a market for the Heritage Softail for many years to come. That market is likely to shrink ever smaller as those years go by though. They do need some models to show off the current state of technology in their street bikes. Make it clear that if you are purchasing the bike with ultra modern styling, or the Heritage Classic, you are purchasing modern technology. IMO they are failing to make that point clear to those that don't dig into the details, and many people just plain don't know what a Brembo brake caliper is, or if it's even good. When people look at the retro line from Triumph, Ducati, Guzzi, Victory, etc. they also see modern looking bikes that drive the point that all the bikes have modern engineering behind them. For some reason many people seem to be willing to believe that the engineering behind HD hasn't changed over the decades. | ||
| 46champ |
For some reason many people seem to be willing to believe that the engineering behind HD hasn't changed over the decades That is not exclusive to just H-D most any American manufactures in any field have been accused of the same thing. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Here is a pic of my ill handling, under-powered sporty Grancuda, good lookin' scoot, and well-written post. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
+1 Jerry, Nice ride! As Buellers, we can bash h-d and speculate all we want about their bikes. In the end, it's more the economy than anything else. People still want their bikes (just can't afford them right now) and dealerships still have a decent flow of people buying parts, trinkets and the like. (Message edited by Paint shaker on September 30, 2010) | ||
| Blake |
The artistry in the design of some of the bikes is undeniable. And it's beyond ignorant to claim that the company has shunned technological advancement. Some of the bikes are very nice. I'd be in the market for one if not for how the HDI board led by the CEO treated the folks at Buell, a number who I consider friends. I just couldn't stomach riding one. We'll see what happens. I'm not locked in to that point of view. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
No one is claiming that advancement hasn't been made, but that advancement is in a limited box. VW Beetles were produced between 1938 and 2003. There is no denying that technological advancements were made in that period of time, but to say that a VW Beetle kept pace with other vehicles of 2003 in the area of power or handling is simply not logical. It's like freezing progression at the 57 Chevy Belair. It was the most modern car of it's time in 1957. Now force the company ONLY to produce that model making refinements to the base design. Furthermore, require that the advancements be made so that the appearance of engine, interior and exterior of the vehicle can't be changed in any material way. You can upgrade the fueling, the suspension, displacement, transmission, electronics, etc. Now use that completely modernized and technologically upgraded 1957 Chevy Belair and try to attract a younger buyer away from a Honda Civic, WRX, or RX8 at more than double the price. Oh, and these buyers weren't even around when the original 1957 Chevy Belair was new. Now if you want heritage and nostalgia, you couldn't ask for a better platform than a 1957 Belair. It's just not going to draw a younger buyer looking for performance away from a competitive offering.  | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
hey my first car was a 55 chevy bel-air. and I am pretty sure it would run with or at least hold its own with any of the cars you mentioned. Granted it was in no way a stock car (makes me wish I was not a screw up causing my dad to sell it) by the way before people assume I am an old guy for having such an old car I am only 27 and I had that car when I was 17. (Message edited by firebolt020283 on September 30, 2010) | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Blake, I understand your anger toward H-D's current CEO. That said, you've been an outspoken critic of our country's current president, but I don't see you "shunning" America as a result. I understand (or at least I try) the passion behind the sophomoric insults levied at Harley-Davidson in general these days by some of the BadWeB stalwarts. However, Mr. Wandell had nothing to do with the founding of Harley-Davidson, nor anything to do with it's first century-plus of existence. I may not like the way he's running the show, but I still admire the company in general, its rich heritage and history, and I occasionally take enough exception to the anti-Harley sentiment that pervades BadWeB these days (including re-naming the "Critical Mass" forum...) to de-cloak and fire away at the keyboard in bemused protest. Such as I have on this thread. Harley's Sportsters are fine motorcycles. And I stomach riding my Road King just fine, thank you. Best, JH | ||
| Ezblast |
LOL - FB - this old VW of Pauters would tear up a whole bunch of stuff(their ability to be modified beyond belief being an important factor)  Pauter's build's these to order -  This puppy produces mega power - People have liked VW's for their uniqueness, durability, and how easy they are to modify - Porshe laid out a nice platform to start out from - lol On the other topic - HD should have gone the way of Buell - now they have no direction - mostly old folks like HD's from what I can tell. I may like them in my 70s - if I live that long. EZ (Message edited by ezblast on October 01, 2010) | ||
| Dwardo |
Any punk who would rather drive a Honda than that '57 ought to have his ass kicked and then be deported. Just my opinion. Wow, we're in a bad mood today! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I give up. Voluntary obtuseness is exhausting. I talked with a brand new owner of a '48 today. He is tickled pick with it. He's about to turn 70. | ||
| Radioelasais |
1965 Porsche  2010 Porsche  45 years and it still looks the same. but the it is a very different car. porsche was about to go bankrupt when they insisted in producing "just" an old fashioned air cooled 911. i like the sportster, probably the only HD I like ... now you tell me if HD is following the same path as porsche or maybe their strategy is different (?) | ||
| 46champ |
I thought Porsche got in a financial bind when they were building 924's and 928's. | ||
| Guell |
Porsche wasn't going bankrupt when they designed the 911. Later on they were, but the 911 was designed because Ferry Porsche wanted more of a sports car and the 356 had gone as far as it was going to go. | ||
| Radioelasais |
I believe I wrote "they insisted in producing "just" an old fashioned ..." when I look at the HD product line, well those bikes looks all alike to me. Offering buells and MVs would have been a good move to widen the customer base. Or maybe not according to their decisions. porsche introduced new technologies (and the fan were not happy at all at that time) and new models (again the fans were not happy). that saved porsche, not the heritage. same happened for maserati. same happened for BMW motorrad. same happens everywhere. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
The wife and I Rode my 883 across the state to Flagler Beach for lunch. 250-290 miles or so. It was a beautiful day!! | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Just ordered the final parts for my redeux of the Sporty. Pics up when it is done | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
you know harley gets a lot of heat for being all noise and no go but I seen a jap cruiser bike yesterday that was far worse than any harley ever thought of being. this thing was going all of about 15 mph but sounded like it was giving it had. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Grancuda - what's that in the background on the right? Mopar? | ||
| Mls1 |
I test rode the XR1200 yesterday while my Buell was in for the harness upgrade. I also own a 96 S1, have to say I was impressed with the handling and brakes but the 75hp engine was booooring... Fun little bike but nearly 15 years later and with FI it can't even compare to my S1 and when you think 13 years after the S1 Buell is winning AMA championships and Euro champs on the 1190 it just shows how odd harley's thinking is... | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Lemon, guessing from his handle but, maybe a Plymouth Barracuda. |
