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Archive through June 17, 2010Delta_one30 06-17-10  05:46 pm
Archive through June 16, 2010Firebolt3230 06-16-10  02:10 pm
         

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Just_ziptab
Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 11:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Montana Police Officer cleared In Fatal Shooting. Full story:

http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=22175
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Paint_shaker
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 07:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As well he should have been.

Alcohol, beat as a child, mental, stable and on and on and on... It doesn't matter why the perp pulled the gun. The perp pulled the gun with the sole intention of killing another human being.

2 very fortunatey things happened,the first pull of the trigger fell on an empty/spent shell and other human being was trained in how to respond in an incident such as this.

Good job officer! Though you have to live with the fact you took another person's life, least it was justified in every way.

As for the perp, I hope he rots in hell!
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Jstfrfun
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 10:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Guilty of: DUI
Attempted murder
Fleeing the scene of a crime
Discharge of a firearm
Stupidity in a "no stupid zone"
Case closed, judgment passed, sentence executed.
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Methed
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 09:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I was recently informed that, at least in MN, if you drive off and are severely and notably intoxicated, your vehicle is considered as wielding a 'deadly weapon' and LEOs have the authority to STK to prevent a chase or collision.

Might be a similar situation here.
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Fez
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 01:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Totally justified.

This was in Montana right? In CA, we have:


In Montana we have 3-7-77
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Blake
Posted on Monday, October 02, 2017 - 10:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thread resurrection alert!

Just happened across this old thread, and I'd like to know the military security forces rule that, according to contributor "Delta_one", mandates that a person may shoot at you but you are prohibited from returning fire so long as said shooter then tries to flee.

But maybe his understanding is just wrong. He heard "If you shoot someone in the back, you will be court martialed" and made a giant leap to "returning fire at a shooter who is fleeing is illegal."

First, a court martial is mandated for the sake of ensuring full and open/transparent justice for all. It takes away the ability of commanding officers to subvert justice. It doesn't imply that a conviction is likely.

Second, when someone is armed and trying to kill you, the relative orientation of their back to you is completely irrelevant.

But if that really is a military security rule governing the use of force, whoever mandated it would seem to be an incompetent imbecile at best, a treasonous scumbag at worst. Either way, he/she needs to be exposed and removed form any/all govt service.

(Message edited by blake on October 02, 2017)
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Hootowl
Posted on Monday, October 02, 2017 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This is what happens when politicians define the rules of engagement. Their job is to declare war. Let the warriors do the rest. If they're not comfortable with that, perhaps they should not let slip the dogs of war. Pussyfooting around your enemy is how wars drag on forever. See Iraq and Afghanistan. And Vietnam. Pretty much every conflict since WWII.
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Ourdee
Posted on Monday, October 02, 2017 - 09:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Background first: In U.S.A.F. I was an 81170 Security Police Supervisor, 5 years and 10 months. From 78 to 84. I'll skip decorations, medals,badges, campaign ribbons, and military education. Women were not allowed in the career field while I was in. We were taught to shoot center mass. We were allowed to shoot to wound at the time and it was not to be considered using deadly force. FBI instructor told us during training that a dead person does not testify very well at the court marshal. If you shoot someone, you will be court marshaled. That is how they make you free. That even if we chose to wound instead of killing, we would most likely revert to our training and shoot center mass. We had no such disengagement rules. Once it is started we were to end it. In training if you took one of our positions, within 5 minutes you could expect 1000s of rounds of 5.56, .308, and 40mm H.E. That was just the start. If you ran after contact, you were going to die tired. If you hid in a structure, I called E.O.D. to have the doors blown off and the structure over pressurized. I hate to think the politicians have my brothers playing such a dangerous game today. And if you have qualms about hostages getting hurt, we did not recognize hostages. Simple rule for the hostage want to be, do not get captured!
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Aesquire
Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2017 - 01:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

We had one of those "anti-terrorism" classes at work, and it's a good thing you don't get graded on them, since I did a 5 second reiteration of the class at the end and announced my opinion.

"surrender and be raped, tortured and murdered is the lesson from the company. The right answer is take the first chance you get when one guy with a gun is distracted, hit him with something hard & heavy, take his gun, use the damn sights, and kill every other terrorist until they outrun you. Don't forget to hide the gun before the police arrive an hour or so later, so they don't shoot you, and don't say a damn thing to a reporter ever. Best not to talk to the police either, until you've had some quiet time with your own lawyer. That's what I'm going to do, the rest of you that can't shoot, hit the floor. The good shooters, pick up the weapons of the damned."

Got a literal scream of rage and panic from the "instructor".

For some reason they don't send me to the seminars anymore.
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Bartimus
Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2017 - 09:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here you go Blake:

Appendix E: Rules of Engagement for U.S. Military Forces in Iraq

Issued by U.S. Central Command Combined Forces Land Component Commander

A laminated card with the following text was distributed to all U.S. Army and Marine personnel in Iraq.

CFLCC ROE CARD

On order, enemy military and paramilitary forces are declared hostile and may be attacked subject to the following instructions:

a) Positive identification (PID) is required prior to engagement. PID is a reasonable certainty that the proposed target is a legitimate military target. If no PID, contact your next higher commander for decision

b) Do not engage anyone who has surrendered or is out of battle due to sickness or wounds.

c) Do not target or strike any of the following except in self-defense to protect yourself, your unit, friendly forces, and designated persons or property under your control:

Civilians

Hospitals, mosques, national monuments, and any other historical and cultural sites.

d) Do not fire into civilian populated areas or buildings unless the enemy is using them for military purposes or if necessary for your self-defense. Minimize collateral damage.

e) Do not target enemy infrastructure (public works, commercial communication facilities, dams), Lines of Communication (roads, highways, tunnels, bridges, railways) and Economic Objects (commercial storage facilities, pipelines) unless necessary for self-defense or if ordered by your commander. If you must fire on these objects to engage a hostile force, disable and disrupt but avoid destruction of these objects, if possible.

The use of force, including deadly force, is authorized to protect the following:

Yourself, your unit, and friendly forces

Enemy Prisoners of War

Civilians from crimes that are likely to cause death or serious bodily harm, such as murder or rape

Designated civilians and/or property, such as personnel of the Red Cross/Crescent, UN, and US/UN supported organizations

3. Treat all civilians and their property with respect and dignity. Do not seize civilian property, including vehicles, unless you have the permission of a company level commander and you give a receipt to the property’s owner.

Detain civilians if they interfere with mission accomplishment or if required for self-defense.
CENTCOM General Order No. 1A remains in effect. Looting and the taking of war trophies are prohibited.

REMEMBER

Attack enemy forces and military targets.
Spare civilians and civilian property, if possible.
Conduct yourself with dignity and honor.
Comply with the Law of War. If you see a violation, report it.

These ROE will remain in effect until your commander orders you to transition to post-hostilities ROE.

AS OF 311330Z JAN 03

Basically,If they shoot and kill the soldier next to you, and then throw down their weapon, you cannot return fire. Even if they are facing you, you cannot return fire.

Night and day difference between Vietnam, where we shot at anything hostile, and Irag/Afghanistan, where we were handicapped by the rules of engagement.
I served in both theaters, and can confirm that in Iraq, the enemy learned quickly, that we could not return fire if they were "temporarily" unarmed, and would use that against us often...

ROE be damned!
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