| Author | Message | ||
     Buelet |
+1 Bishopjb1124  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Good points Delta... my point was that as soon as the gun came out, I would have made the decision to engage, and once that decision was made I am past step one, and on to the "continue shooting until I can't" mode. The time from when the threat appeared to the time the cop fired the last shot was 6 seconds. I'd say that no matter what has happened, I should be able to assume that somebody that shot at me is a threat to me for at least that long. I draw a different line for "starting" than I do for "stopping" I suppose... If he started firing when the truck was 200 feet away and fleeing it would have bugged me... but continuing an active engagement at that point just feels like winning a fight somebody else started. I have no training or facts to back that up... Just intuition... Doesn't seem prudent to be in a fight for my life thinking about stopping it until there is no ambiguity left. LOL. Listen to me the armchair quarterback. If I was in that situation, I expect I would actually freeze like a rabbit and sit there with my mouth open looking bewildered... | ||
| 1125rcya |
IMO this cop done his job with great character. | ||
| Daggar |
Good response by the cop. In Cali, if someone threatens you with a gun, on your property, and then turns and walks away from you, it is legal to shoot the person in the back. The person is still considered a threat. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The "don't shoot the criminal in the back" thing if straight out of the westerns. This ain't a draw and that wasn't high noon. | ||
| Firebolt32 |
If I was in that situation, I expect I would actually freeze like a rabbit and sit there with my mouth open looking bewildered... Most of us would. I think that copy actually said "Oh shit!", bailed to get out of harms way and then pulled his gun. The perp's foot hitting the gas was faster than the cop getting out of the way and then pulling his gun. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
this is why I could not be a cop. I would say on every occasion viewing this clip that it was a legit use of force. The shiat of it is that the arm chair quarterbacks, bureacrats and PC Police want to get soft and squishy with criminals 'rights' and say it was excessive. I would elect this guy sheriff in my county. He has my support in that shoot. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
On the other hand,the perp could have been a fine citizen,high powered business man,leaving behind a wonderful family. He was drunk and in trouble (for maybe the first time ever) and had a gun to 'get out of jail".He thought the stupid thing and used it. The cop was well trained...obviously very used to combat pistol practices. I believe he knew he had the bad guy bagged by the way he walked back to get his flash light and call it in....not giving full attention to the fleeing vehicle.If he was in a hurry to give chase,he would have forgot all about the flash light.He scored,he knew it. If you shoot a lot,you know when you have connected. | ||
| Firebolt32 |
he would have forgot all about the flash light. Hell no! You know how damn expensive those things are?!  | ||
| Bishopjb1124 |
Quote: On the other hand,the perp could have been a fine citizen,high powered business man,leaving behind a wonderful family. He was drunk and in trouble (for maybe the first time ever) and had a gun to 'get out of jail".He thought the stupid thing and used it. The cop was well trained...obviously very used to combat pistol practices. I believe he knew he had the bad guy bagged by the way he walked back to get his flash light and call it in....not giving full attention to the fleeing vehicle.If he was in a hurry to give chase,he would have forgot all about the flash light.He scored,he knew it. If you shoot a lot,you know when you have connected. If that was his first time ever (the perp) the cop did the right thing, he prevented it from happening again. "Fine Citizens" just don't randomly pull some BS like this. At least not any where I have ever lived. If he would have got away with it once he would have pulled it again maybe with the cop loosing his life the next time. You sir fall into the category of those I described in my first post. If you play with the bull you get the horns. Newtons law comes into effect here, For every action (pulling a gun on a cop and shooting), there is an equal and opposite re-action (the cop pulling his gun and killing you). Notice that the first shot from the perp did not go off he made a conscious decision to pull the trigger again. That was a choice he made and had to live with for the rest of his life (no matter how short it may have been). | ||
| Hootowl |
Yeah, guy had it coming. But then, I'm just pissed at the world because I couldn't go to homecoming. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
"Fine citizens" don't drink and drive, pull guns on officers, and flee the scene. | ||
| Boltrider |
Totally justified. This was in Montana right? In CA, we have: PC 196. Justifiable Homicide by Public Officer Homicide is justifiable when committed by public officers and those acting by their command in their aid and assistance, either- 1. In obedience to any judgment of a competent Court; or, 2. When necessarily committed in overcoming actual resistance to the execution of some legal process, or in the discharge of any other legal duty; or, 3. When necessarily committed in retaking felons who have been rescued or have escaped, or when necessarily committed in arresting persons charged with felony, and who are fleeing from justice or resisting such arrest. There's case law that says fleeing felon alone is no longer good enough, BUT this particular fleeing felon posed an imminent threat to the cop and then to the public when he tried to get away. One last thing - 1989 US Supreme Court Graham vs Connor defined "objective reasonableness" with regards to use of force. The court defined 4 components when determining reasonableness: The reasonableness of a particular use of force must be... 1. judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer. 2. examined through the eyes of an officer on the scene at the time the force was applied, not the 20/20 vision of hindsight. 3. based on the facts and circumstances confronting the officer without regard to the officer’s underlying intent or motivation. 4. based on the knowledge that the officer acted properly under the established law at the time. That cop was totally justified any way you look at it. | ||
| Scottorious |
I guess people can look at the letter of the law when it comes to "was he actively endangering the officers life". I guess he wasnt but who cares? I spent a year in afghanistan where the ROE (rules of engagement) are pretty strict, basically if the insurgents wanted to kill us we would be dead before we really had a chance to fight back. If we were shot at and the insurgents dropped their weapons and surrendered we couldnt shoot them. If they turned and ran, or drove away. They are totally still fair game. This guy wasnt surrendering or giving up, he was "falling back". This guy was just falling back and escaping to where he could continue being a criminal. If he would have shot and then dropped his gain and raised his hands, the cop would have then been wrong. If the driver was drunk he was endangering plenty of people while driving. If what that officer did was illegal then something is wrong. | ||
| Rah7777777 |
If you try to kill an officer and fail ( or succeed ) you have lost your right to live if you ask me. This countries judicial system is so F'd up it's not funny. Bring back death penalty in every state and enforce it quickly ( on cases that there is no question of guilt ) stop letting pieces of shit out well before there time is up and allow the police to lay down a little bit more force and this country would see an improvement. It's common sense but so many stupid human rights idiots just don't get it. ( if your one of those idiots, god bless your dumb soul! ) This cop did his job, he did it well. In an instance where so many things could have gone wrong, it worked out for the best in the end. I work with police at my day job and I have the highest level of respect for them and what they do. Just my thoughts! | ||
| Firebolt32 |
if the insurgents wanted to kill us we would be dead before we really had a chance to fight back. That my friend is B.S.! I never understood it. I see a guy shoving a RPG down the pipe I'm firing before fired at. That's why I never served. I have mad respect for those who did/do but I'd never make it. I work with police at my day job and I have the highest level of respect for them and what they do. As do I. Granted their Bailiffs but I've seen some crazy stuff go down in the court house before. You should see the way the trash that walks in and out of that court house treats these people. It makes me sick! | ||
| Paint_shaker |
For 32 seconds the officer is talking to a citizen who committed a traffic infraction. In one-second the citizen pulls a gun and points it at the officer (and apparently dry fired due to an empty shell casing). At this point the officer is justified in deadly force until there is no longer a threat. It takes approximately 1 to 1.5 seconds after the perp pulls the gun for the officer to recognize the threat, seek a position of cover or concealment and begin to draw his own weapon in response. 2 seconds after the perp pulls the gun the perp manages to fire a round. 2.5 to 3 seconds after the perp pulls a gun the officer has repositioned and begins to return fire. At the same time the perp begins to drive away and the officer continues to fire, not knowing if the perp will back up or continue to fire. The officer fires 14 or 15 shots. From the time the perp pulls the gun until the officer fires his last shot takes approximately 9 seconds... We have the luxury of counting those 9 seconds under no stress and passing judgment. Had the perp's gun fired the first time a totally different scenario may have unfolded. To any arm chair quarterbacks- come train with me. We'll get the simmunitions and the safety gear out and you can be the officer. You can even have the luxury of knowing what is coming. I guaranty I will put rounds down range before you have a a chance to react. If you think you can do it better. By all means, feel free to become an officer, get the training and the experience and become a trainer. Then YOU can train how it is to be done. Otherwise, I suggest if you have never been in this kind of situation nor had extensive training in this type of situation that you shut your mouth and be grateful this brave officer was on duty this particular night to deal with the threat. | ||
| Reducati |
"Everyone justifying this azzhole and saying the cop could get in trouble is why this country is in the situation it is in. Lets defend every little MF'er that does bad things and not stand behind those doing their jobs. " | ||
| 1125rcya |
The great thing here in this situation, it was a cop and not a citizen! If this were the opposite way so that another citizen was in the cops place,that person would be locked up for sure. I am glad that theres video tape of this tragedy. I am not the judge of this mans dead soul nor are any of you, but we are all aloud to have opinions collectively as a group to say whats right and wrong. We all know right from wrong in our harts, for believers and non believers. Please do not misinterpret your hart, the law is a good gide line, but not always the best way of dealing with real threats. | ||
| Pwnzor |
I will reiterate my opinion that this officer acted completely within his rights, and did a fine job at it. Speaking as the convicted felon that I am, having spent a year in prison myself, I applaud the actions of this officer. He kept his cool. The gun was pointed at him *click*, he ducked back, and *blam* the gun goes off. It was intended to kill the officer and facilitate the criminal's flight. The criminal rolled the dice, thinking "I can kill this pig and just roll on out of here". The dice came up snake eyes. The officer displayed as calm a demeanor as any I've seen in a similar situation. He exhibited tactful use of deadly force, rightfully ending the life of the man who tried in earnest to kill him to avoid a traffic stop. (or more likely drug/alcohol conviction) Ask yourself this: If I shoot at a cop, what would happen to me? Now, what if I shoot at him a second time when the gun doesn't go off the first time? Crimes are all about intent. It was the intention of this individual to kill a police officer who, like most police officers, is just doing his job. Clocks in, clocks out, gets his check, bones his wife, watches TV and goes to sleep. Maybe he enjoys motorcycling or paintballing or whatever. This scumbag's time was up. | ||
| Delta_one |
not exactly an arm chair quarterback but I would love to come play 
when I went through the training in the air force it was made very clear shoot a man in the back there will be a court martial you are in the wrong unless he was currently in the act of threatening life (not that he might or that he already did) he was attempting to enter a restricted area where deadly force was authorized he was attempting to flee with items or information that deems deadly force necessary for military security (crypto codes for example) if I were even to un-holster my weapon without solid justification, I would have had somebody with a higher pay grade putting me through the wringer yes there is more to it than that but this is the readers digest version now comes my opinion the perp should have lived long enough to see a judge a jury and then an executioner. the officer should NOT be punished. the rules are screwed up but until they are changed we need to play by them. perhaps my views have changed since I got out, I remember being a great marksman with both my m4 and my m9 and I have not touched or fired a weapon for non job reasons until 3 weeks ago when my dad needed help sighting in his hew riffle. (I also fired my recently purchased re-curve bow that day) maybe I have a bit more of a reservation to taking a life since my son was born; but taking a persons life is not something that I could do unless there were absolutely no other options available. | ||
| U4euh |
Can't say more than has already been. Cop was justified, from ducking to returning fire was just a second to 1.5. No way he thought about stopping to see if the perp "decided to stop trying to kill me", "that M'F'r is out to get me, stop him" was probably more like it! I say GOOD JOB | ||
| Hootowl |
I would have pissed myself and then taken it in the chest with the second hammer fall. That officer has nerves of steel. | ||
| Court |
Gotta tell you ...... It's been 40 years since I got shot 3 times at close range from a 12Ga shotgun .... But I do recall things happening pretty fast and it was at least 5 minutes before I figured out what was going on. I'd give to cop the benefit of being in the "fight or flight" response mode. If I didn't know what was going on and was holding a weapon I'd be shooting at any perceived threat. | ||
| Bosh |
re: "Fine citizens" don't drink and drive, pull guns on officers, and flee the scene Some people just can't comprehend even the simplest idea of morality. Thinking a "fine citizen" can go around drunk with a .44mag get out of jail card is just friggin amazing to me. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Anybody know the rest of he story? Did the guy in the van die? What was his story? Did the cop get cleared? | ||
| Firebolt32 |
got that in an email from a firearms concealed/carry instructor. " driver of the vehicle (suspect) died of his wounds". Posted by ziptab on the first page of the thread. | ||
| Hootowl |
But did he die of gunshot wounds, or from deceleration trauma? I hope it was the former. | ||
| Damnut |
Delta no offense but it seems as though your training was Military not LE. Not knowing the rules for either role, I would think that rules for the LEO are different than Military ROE, no? Once again I don't know, just asking. | ||
| Delta_one |
damnut I agree 100% but that is why I opened with this on the first page
that's why I posed it the way I did my last post was more in response to the comments about armchair quarterbacks, lacking training, never being in those situations, walking in their shoes comments I figured a little background on my experiences would help readers understand my comments better and where I was coming from sorry for the confusion |
