| Author | Message | ||
     Jmemmert |
I've got an 04 XB12R with 22k miles on it. A problem has developed. Sometimes, but not always, when shifting from 2nd to 3rd, the shifter moves a little, but then locks up. You can't press it up or down. After pulling in on the clutch a few more times, it will go into 3rd just fine. Sometimes the tranny is fine and dosn't do this, other days, it does it on every 2nd to 3rd shift. Is this going to require me to split the cases? If so, How much money do you guess i'll have to dump into it? I could pull the engine and tear down the top end myself, but don't have the tools to split the cases. does anyone have any ideas on what the problem could be? | ||
| Reepicheep |
You can get to parts of it by pulling the primary cover, then primary chain / clutch pack / stator bell as a unit. It's not that bad a job, lots about it in the knowledge vault. There could be a problem with the shifter pawl, spring clip, detent plate, drum pins, and there is a decent chance you could address many of those problems without splitting the cases. Could be other problems that would require splitting the cases though. | ||
| Chasten |
i'm hijacking this thread instead of making a new one... my bike: 2005 XB12Scg with 11k miles, never crashed, never tipped over, ridden fairly hard but not abused. my problem: sometimes, but not always, when shifting from 2nd to 3rd, the shift lever moves a little, but just doesn't move all the way into gear. if the clutch is let out, the bike is clearly still in 2nd. then, after a few seconds, the bike will complete the shift on its own all of a sudden, usually with a bad clunking-like rattle as 3rd engages. needless to say, this is dangerous. if i notice that the shift was not completed, i can keep the clutch pulled and fiddle with the engine rpm until the shifter will once-again move and complete the shift. there never seems to be a problem during any other shift - just upshifting 2nd to 3rd. extensive online research indicates the following: these bikes are not known for having transmission issues. they ARE, however, known for sometimes having issues with the shifter drum pins and the shift arm pawls (which seemed to fit my symptoms). accessing these parts for inspection is not too involved. if there IS a problem with the transmission internals, though, it requires removal of the entire engine assembly and splitting of the engine cases (total teardown). diagnostics performed thus far: i removed the primary for access to the shifter mechanism. visual inspection of the gear shift arm / pawls / shifter drum pins indicated that everything was good. manually operating the transmission and running through the gears while observing the shift arm / drum further indicated that those parts were working properly. however, even just turning by hand, the shift from 2nd to 3rd had the same issue -- sometimes it hangs up mid-shift and 3rd does not engage. sadly, this leads me to believe that the problem is inside the transmission. after studying the SM diagrams of the transmission internals, i think i may have a problem with wear on the dogs like what Aaron posted here: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=3842&post=68924#POST68924 is that even possible with only 11k miles? so i put everything back together. i think i'm going to try to live with this issue and find a way to deal with the 2-3 shift. right now, i don't have the energy to do an engine teardown in my garage... and i definitely don't have $5000 for someone else to do the work. i'll let you guys know if there are any further developments, but in the meantime i'm open to suggestions. | ||
| Erictsartin |
I've had the same problem with my 04 xb12s lightning. My bike did it going from 1 to 2 and 2 to 3. Been doing it for about a year, and the other day i was going for a ride, and when i clicked it in high gear at about 70, the motor died instantly. Tried to roll start it after it died, and it sounded like u took a handfull of nuts and bolts and threw in the engine. So when i got it home it took the spark plugs out and they looked gr8, the pistons and valves still move up and down. So does anyone out there have an idea of what it could possibly be, trans, motor, pushrod? PLEASE HELP!!! It does have almost 38xxx miles on it. (Message edited by erictsartin on September 18, 2009) | ||
| Chasten |
UPDATE... seven months and ~800 miles later, and the problem has only gotten worse. i've had a few good rides, but generally, the 2-3 shift is a problem every time now. additionally, i'm now popping into N from 2 after a lot of 1 - 2 shifts. unless anyone has a last-minute suggestion, i'm pretty much convinced i've got a torn up transmission. so my winter project will be to fix things. since i cannot open the trans without taking the WHOLE ENGINE APART, i have an even bigger project on my hands. i am now soliciting advice from anyone who has rebuilt an XB12. since it will all be apart anyway, what should i do while i'm in there? i consider myself fairly capable as a mechanic, but it has been a while since i rebuilt an engine. i'm doing this alone in my garage... what would you do in my position? | ||
| Blake |
Worn dogs typically result in the transmission falling out of gear, not quite what you are describing. when shifting from 2nd to 3rd, the shifter moves a little, but then locks up. You can't press it up or down. I'd be sure to CAREFULLY check, recheck, and check again each and every single applicable component and adjustment that is easily accessible without splitting the cases. Without carefully scrutinizing each component and each adjustment, you really cannot rule them out.
If all that checks out, then verify that your clutch is working well, especially the ramp assembly and its bearings. Be CERTAIN that your transmission/primary drive lubricant is not over-filled, not even slightly. Ensure that your clutch is adjusted per specifications. Check primary drive chain tension, ensure that at it's tightest, it is nearer the loose end of the spec or even a little bit looser, around 5/8" to 3/4" total free play. What transmission lubricant are you using? Try a lighter grade oil? When you start your bike cold in 1st gear especially when ambient temperatures is cooler, does the bike tend to want to pull forward a little, like the clutch is just slightly dragging, urging the bike to move forward? | ||
| Chasten |
hi Blake. thanks for responding. let me address some of what you said... in the UPDATE post, you'll see that the symptoms have changed a little to include falling out of gear (just 2nd, i think). also, there now seems to sometimes be a Neutral between 2nd and 3rd. anyway, on to diagnostics. as noted above, i have performed steps #1-4 on your list already. i will check them again... i believe step #5 requires splitting the cases. with regard to the primary... i've checked and rechecked the tension in the chain, but i'll reset it again. it's probably tighter than you suggest (more like 1/2"). i thought that having it "nearer the loose end of the spec or even a little bit looser" can cause false neutrals and noises? the fluid level is right where the manual says it should be (with the rear of the bike on a stand, and the front on a jack so it's level in two planes). should i try to take out some of the fluid? the trans fluid is HD Formula+. with regard to the clutch... the adjustment is set per the SM. operation seems normal and precise. i will inspect the ball/ramp mechanism for issues. i will also do the cold-start test that you mentioned; i don't think it tries to pull forward, but i'll get back to you on that. i really appreciate your help in trying to resolve this without splitting the cases. there is really nothing wrong with the engine and i hate the idea of taking it apart to fix the trans. i'm hoping that some kind of epiphany occurs, but i kind of think that my original troubleshooting results are probably correct. | ||
| Blake |
"with the rear of the bike on a stand, and the front on a jack so it's level in two planes" Just to be sure, I'd ditch both stands and check tranny lube level with the bike on level ground and standing upright. If in doubt, yeah try removing four ounces or so. Be sure that when you check the primary chain, that it is in it's worst case tightest position as it travels around the sprockets as the engine turns. I agree, no way you'll be checking the shifter forks without removing the innards. I'm still stuck on tuber.  | ||
| Sokota |
For a preliminary external inspection , check the output pulley with the belt off for play and smooth operation. Pull the rubber seal and inspect the needle bearings . | ||
| Chasten |
here's the results of the re-re-recheck, so far: 1) the clutch is adjusted perfectly. really. it is not dragging at all, and works splendidly. 2) the primary chain freeplay is set at about 5/8". 3) the primary fluid is just like the picture in the manual, checked flat and upright. here is one of the things i am struggling with when it comes to these kinds of things, though... why would any issues with the clutch or primary or the fluid level only affect the 2nd - 3rd shift? doesn't it seem like issues with those components would affect all shifting? anyway, next, i guess i'll pull the primary cover and the primary and take another look at the shift shaft and pawls and stuff. i might even post pictures. here is some new info... i did a quick test ride around the block, and am now hearing a fairly irregular knocking / clacking at or just below 3k RPM. without a stethoscope or something, it's pretty hard to tell just where it's coming from, but it sounds low in the engine (not top end), if i had to guess. also during that test ride, i shifted 1st - 2nd with no issue, but then 2nd dropped back to N under load. keep those ideas coming! | ||
| Gear2078 |
I've had the same exact issue with my '05 xb12s for three years now and I do have a different theory. My issue began with water contamination which I would not associate with a bent fork or broken teeth. At the time the problems originated I was running my primary chain on the tight side of specs because it was quieter that way. Loosening the primary chain and using thicker oil helps a little. The trans would shift perfectly cold, then progressively worsen as it warms up. Learning the nature of the beast, the distance between the engine crank and the trans input shaft grows as the aluminum housing expands causing the primary chain to tighten. After thorough study of the xb manual, i have found that the 1-2 pinion gear slides closest to the primary in second gear and the second to third shift requires mechanical movement of two gears simultaneously. It is my theory that the combination of a tight primary chain and contaminated lubricant has worn the input shaft bearing allowing the input shaft to squeeze the second gear pinion against the countershaft resulting in added friction during a shift that already requires double the force of the 3-4 shift. Officially, replacing this bearing requires splitting the case (I have a theoretical procedure to replace the bearing from the outside), but at the very least the looseness of the bearing can be measured. ... or I could be on crack. | ||
| Mbest |
Hi Guys, Sorry to say that I've had the same problem twice. The bike has had both the stock clutch, the STM Slipper clutch, tight and loose primary chain, a new clutch basket when the dealer thought it's bearing was a little "loose-ish" during a Stator R+R, and every manor of primary oil from stock HD, Syn 3, Mobil One, Motul MTF and RedLine ATF. None of the oils made any difference except to the "feel" of the clutch engagement. The hanging up and intermittent dragging led to rounded off dogs on my tranny gears. At around 45K miles, the Dealer tore the bike down on the last week of my factory Warranty and replaced 2nd gear and it's ring dog. The "new" sharp edges on the gears and dogs provided for better and "snappier" shifting but it still had a "feel" about it that something wasn't 100%. But it wasn't so bad that the Dealer could warrant a new teardown. Fast forward to today... Just as before, the "Hang-up's" and occasional "drag" on the shift led to more and more "grinding" into 2nd and more than a few missed shifts. My new Dealer, with 76K miles, on ESP warranty, agreed that something was still amiss. He wanted to try the easy stuff first so he put in a new Shift Lever Assembly" #34014-06 inside the side case, He also was unfamiliar with the STM Slipper clutch so I gave him the stock clutch assembly for reassembly so he could rule it out as a cause. Test rides felt different from the new (perhaps stiffer) springs on the new Shift Lever assembly, but things still weren't 100% so they split the cases. Everything looked good but Dry shifting the tranny on the work bench revealed that on one of the shift forks, the pressed in pin that engages the shift drum was "Too Long" it was sticking out of the fork just enough to drag on the bottom or "valley" of the groves on the Shift Drum causing it to drag and hang up. They replaced it and a rounded off Ring dog. I had him put the Slipper back in since we hopefully ruled it out as a concern. (He messed that up and I had to re-do the STM install, but it only took 45 minutes and he supplied a new qt of oil) Back on the road and it's like a brand new bike. You can't make the tranny miss or grind into gear. It's still a clunky HD tranny, but It'll briskly snap into gear every time with no drag, no delay and no drama no matter if you're hot rodding thru the gears on a windy mountain road with my Whiny sport bike buddys  or leisurely splitting traffic thru town. My bike is an '08 Uly and #34157 was the offending shift fork. $27. Total bill for ESP was around $2K, $50 out of pocket for me. happy happy.... mike | ||
| Reepicheep |
Fantastic information, thanks for posting it! | ||
| Gear2078 |
Thank you for the info, wish I had known years ago, maybe under warranty. I'm not looking forward to a complete tear down without the money for upgrades. | ||
| Harleyelf |
Wow. Just wow. An over-length shift fork engagement pin, who'd 'a thunk it? My congratulations to your new dealer's tech. Ask him, could the groove from the over-length pin have been seen or felt without splitting the case if one knew where to look? Was the damage to the drum, the case, or both? | ||
| Mbest |
Cases would have to be split to confirm if this is an issue on a specific bike. Saw no visible or measurable damage to shift drum and it wasn't replaced either time the bike was apart and is in it as we speak. First time apart, I asked the Tech to confirm good bearings and smooth rotation of the shift drum and smooth sliding of the shift fork on their respective shafts. He and I both looked at the individual parts after disassembly and I agreed that there was no visible indications to warrant replacement. I inquired about the offending shift fork being replace as a precaution on the first repair teardown because we never really found a smoking-gun for the symptoms, but he just replaced the parts that got worn/damaged as a result. The tech said that the Fork didn't look bent and had even wear patterns where it contacted the shift dog so he couldn't warrant replacing it. His comments were valid and it did look serviceable to me as well, however, he never did any investigation to find the source of the problem. He just looked for wear and damage after it was all stripped down to the small parts. On the next teardown the second tech and I saw the exact same worn/damaged gears and what looked like a very serviceable shift fork. Rather than just replacing all the worn parts like the first guy did, he reassembled it multiple times, working the components by hand trying to find the source of the intermittent "Drag" that caused the whole thing until he found it. My Tech never really duplicated the "dragging" and hanging up between gear when he test road the bike. I told him that it was intermittent and different RPM's and engine temps really effect when and where it starts acting up. He agreed that the now almost constant grinding into gears was enough to indicate a solid Warranty issue even though he didn't get a first hand "feel' of the underlying cause. Luckily, he wasn't just showing up to work just for a paycheck. mike | ||
| Harleyelf |
Pity. I was hoping to be able to stick my finger in where the shift drum rides and feel for a groove. Those pins must have a specified length that can be checked. Hardened steel parts can be ground down to spec. | ||
| Mbest |
We also could have just ground down the pin, but ordering up a new part was the way to go for us. We could see the pin "stick-out' was less on the new part. The other two shift forks in the bike were also shorter like the new one. On very very close inspection, we could not see a wear mark of any kind on the aluminum shift drum, but it would clearly and cleanly drag a mark thru marker pen ink applied to the shift drum and on the Fork's drive pin during "bench shifting". The Drum's anodized finish looked brand new on both the bottom and sides of the shift fork tracks. The longer pins interference was only a few thousands of an inch on our inspection of the disassembled tranny. There's always the chance that the shift fork pins, even thou one was clearly longer on my bike, were within design specs and the real problem is that the Shift Drum's grooves are too shallow..... Either way, knocking a little off the hardened pin like Harleyelf said would work in this instance. prior to re-assembly we "kissed" a few extra thousands off with the belt sander on all my shift fork pins for a little extra margin of safety as the motor's dimensions change with temperature. | ||
| Harleyelf |
Good points, all. If I ever run into the issue (I have logged nearly 200,000 miles on evo 883 and 1200 motors), I shall measure all the pins and make the longest one the same length as the shortest one. |
