| Author | Message | ||
     Jlnance |
I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about this subject, but hopefully you all can fix that. I know that Harley has two air cooled motors in production, the Sportster and the Big Twin. I think the Sportster motor is older than the Big Twin motor. Yet despite Harley's desire to paint the Sportster as a girls bike, that engine outperforms the Big Twin engine. If that's the case and I have the timeline correct, I can't see why the Big Twin motors exist at all. Which makes me think I've got my facts wrong. Anyone want to enlighten me? | ||
| Leftcoastal |
To put it in a nutshell - The current big twins can be traced back to the first overhead valve unit - the 1936 EL, which was a 1000cc (61 cu, inch) "Knucklehead". The trans was, and still is, a separate component with it's own case. The Sportster stems from the "K" Model, introduced in 1952 which was the first 'unit construction' (motor & trans in same case) motor. It was a 750cc flathead. The Sportster was first on the market in 1957 - a 900cc (55 inch) overhead valve unit construction motor. The motor company is NOT the one that initially started the "girls bike" paint thing. I think that comes from older days of the 'baddass biker - tough guy' image being tarnished by fact that many women were fully capable of riding those "MAN"S BIKE" Harleys and making them look less "BADD to the Bone"! Something had to be done! So ya got the Sportster as the GIRLS bike! This, of course, is undeniable FACT - according to the new book coming out titled: "Real History as Imagined by Al Keaton" Note - the girls bike thing was a bit of a mistake. You put a 125 pound girl on a well tuned Sportster up against a beer-bellied 275 pound REAL MAN riding a REAL MAN's Panhead or Shovel and the girl's bike will flat SMOKE him, light to light! OOPS!! | ||
| Jlnance |
Yea, my friend Sportymark is fond of pointing out the myths of the Girls Bike thing. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I think what messed up the program was Buell. In the "old days", a stock sporty was lucky to make over 50 HP. So 90 HP sporties were special one off "race engines". Then along came Buell... There were some teething pains (and I have the parts in a box to prove it) but the next thing you know, we have a nice streetable and reliable sporty motor happily turning out 90 HP in pure stock trim. That wasn't part of the plan  Some of that tech (and those expectations) trickled back to the Harley sportster motors, as did the performance. Not all of it, as sporties have styling constraints that interfere with potential performance, but enough that a new sporty will haul pretty well. It was a lucky break for HD. It lets them offer a $9k cruiser that is, well, a darned competitive little cruiser. The niche moved when they weren't looking, but Buell landed them in the perfect spot anyway. I'd *love* to have a model K, or an early sportster! Some of the prettiest bikes I have ever seen, and what a fantastic piece of history! | ||
| Blake |
The big twin engines--there are multiple configurations--are even more tractor-like and bigger torque-monsters than the Buell/Sportster powerplants. They suite the big cruisers and touring bikes very well. | ||
| Pammy |
I happen to have a customer with an immaculate 1987 90" Black/Orange Sportster. He has decided to sell it. He is the only owner. It looks brand new. I have another customer with a CR131" Fatboy (pictured on our website) for sale. It is deemed the fastest street bike in the United States (according to Easy Rider and the Teresi Dyno Drags. 185 RWHP in Drag mode. 171 RWHP in it's all street dress. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I said I want one, not that I could afford one , but thanks for the heads up | ||
| Pammy |
"Whatever the mind of man can concieve and believe, it can achieve" I forget who said it, but I believe it.  Your post just brought those bikes to my mind. If I don't post things quickly, I am likely to be distracted... | ||
| Rich |
It's easy to be distracted when you're the Queen! | ||
| Jackbequick |
The major differences in engines in recent years are: XL - 1203cc, Sportsters and Buells, unit construction with engine and transmission in one case. EVO - 1340cc, 80 cubic inches Twin Cam 88 - 1443cc/88 cubic inches Twin Cam 96 - 1584cc/96 cubic inches The EVO and Twin Cams have separate engine and transmission and the transmission and oil tank are a combined structure. The engine and transmission are joined by the inner primary housing and a common mounting structure. The XL's are right side drive, the EVO's and Twin Cams are all left side drive I think. Here is a good place to study the details without too much hyperbole or BS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson Jack | ||
| Pammy |
It's easy to be distracted when you're the Queen! Or if you have the attention span of a cat...  | ||
| Ducxl |
1987 90" Black/Orange Sportster Stay far away from any kind of big bore/stroked 1986-1992 EVO Sportster!!! Poor engineering placed the stator behind the clutch basket and the rotor shell WAS the clutch basket. Big torque/power flexes the basket(clutch shell) into(and shorting)the stator. Poor design. I fixed it by using a rubber based/impregnated magnet i swapped out with the original hard magnet.It helped... | ||
| Pammy |
They were also only a 4 speed. But it is a classic motorcycle. This one has been 90" for most of it's life. Perfectly maintained even. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
"Poor engineering placed the stator behind the clutch basket and the rotor shell WAS the clutch basket. " I did not know this. Love to see a picture of (parts book/manual breakdown). Sounds innovative for HD, even if it didnt work out. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Biggest reason the 'Big Twin' engine is still around is tradition (of sorts). If HD switched all their bikes to the V-Rod engine and styling (for example), sales would fall flat. They've sold a lot of bikes on the fact that a new HD looks just like one from the 1950's. The Japanese have a sold a lot of bikes for the same reason! HD has really made some big steps on updating the V-twin and keeping the same basic look/design. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
To get back to the original question, there is a good reason that the Big Twin 96" Twin Cam engines exist side by side with the Sportster Evolution motor. They are bigger, more powerful motors that are fitted to bigger and heavier motorcycles. The typical Sporty XL1200 weighs about 562 pounds and the motor produces 79 ft. lbs of torque at the crank. The typical Road King weighs about 770 pounds and claimed torque rating of 92.6 foot pounds, while the Dynas, at 663 pounds, have a torque to weight ratio that is very similar to the Sportster . In other words, the Big Twin has more power, and goes in heavier motorcycles. These big old slow turning engines provide a riding experience that many riders find to be unique, and just plain old fashioned fun. Got it? | ||
| Road_thing |
just plain old fashioned fun Yup. Got it! rt | ||
| Blake |
"They are bigger, more Fixed it for ya. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Thanks Blake. I just hate typos!  | ||
| Pammy |
The typical Road King weighs about 770 pounds and claimed torque rating of 92.6 foot pounds, while the Dynas, at 663 pounds, have a torque to weight ratio that is very similar to the Sportster . The difference here would be gearing only. | ||
| Jackbequick |
I think there are several "schools of thought" or mentalities as far as which are the the "best" of the Bit Twins. I've only owned one, a 1340cc EVO, but I've developed an inordinate fondness for it. I think it is more "approachable" as far as working on it than was my Buell M2. B igger, simpler pieces, etc. After two seasons of a 65 HP EVO, I'm ready for an 85 HP or so one. It is going to take me a few more years to get up to wanting more than that. The Twin Cams had some issues of sort on the cam drive and the amount of wear on the idlers and tensioners in the cam drive. Now they gone to an improved drive system with hydraulic tensioners and better shoes. I don't see a twin cam in my future. Jack | ||
| Mark61 |
The "girls bike" comments had merit. Back in 1985 I had a 1960 XLCH, my brother had a 1976 XLH (both 900cc) and a buddy had bought a new 883 XL. This is when Harley started actively marketing to women and new riders. Our old iron heads would stomp all over and run away from the brand new XL with out much effort. Of course once we talked the buddy into paying the "Harley Tax" he had a much better and RELIABLE XL than either of ours were. mark61 | ||
| Xldevil |
 Donny Peterson on the Sportster: Something I’ll never understand is why some Harley riders discriminate against other riders, Harley models or other motorcyclists forthat matter.This seems even stranger in light of the way society has stereotyped the Harley community and discriminated against it over the years.I'm not talking about friendly camaraderie here. Friendship and mutual feelings of being brothers or sisters in the wind will bring amicable tete-a-tetes back and forth. Poking fun at each other's perceived foibles where the jabs are not meant to be carping or hurtful is a time honored tradition between motorcyclists. But you’ve all heard the disparaging comments like “Half a Harley” or “Girl’s Bike” along with many others levied against the Sportster by some in the Big Twin crowd. Similarly, the Big Twin set don't like it much when the Sporty riders derisively refer to their pride and joy as "an old men's bike". So, Shortster, let's get into leveling the playing field here and talk about the Sportster's attributes and some of the REAL men that have rode them over the years. It's Faster How come it's faster than the Big Twin is? It always has been off the line. The best a Big Twin can do is in top end riding. Remember one thing though, the "half-a-Harley" will get there first. I can hear it now! My hi-perforanced Evo will wipe the lowly Sporty's proverbial rear end. Yeah! Well put 2500 hundred bucks into a Big Twin and do the same with a Sporty and then the big twin will only be a speck in the Sportster's rear view mirror. Kinda reminds me of a former partner of mine, 25 years ago, that increased the cc's on his XL 900 cc Ironhead about 1250cc using stroker flywheels. My 1200 cc Big Twin had been taken up to 1525 cc's using stroker flywheels and a big bore kit. We were side by side on the highway. I caught up to the "little" bike at around 65 mph. Now, I was prepared to dominate. With a sly smile, my partner, twisted the throttle and had that baby standing on one wheel….and, I mean it was close to rear fender scraping up there! He blew me away literally and psychologically. He deflated the remaining wind out of my sails as he accelerated ahead on one wheel. He took advantage of my thinking that since my engine had a larger displacement that it would be faster. He knew it wasn't, by a long shot. I learn my lessons well. Back to the 1990's, there is a customer of mine who is a seemingly mild mannered pharmacist. He minds his own business as he interacts nightly with the Harley community while unwinding from the stresses of his day job. Inevitably, someone on a "man's" Harley mouths off. Softly, the pharmacist politely asks if the gentleman has any money in his pocket. The meek shall inherit the Earth. He wins about $500 bucks a month racing Big Twins on his 883 converted to a 1200. He could win lots more but he makes his point and moves on. He hasn’t even reached for the big gun yet….the stock Sportster 1200S with a hundred ponies at the rear wheel. A lot of Softails have difficulty mustering half that horsepower to propel a heavier bike!Now, I ask you. Why is this smaller Harley called half-a-bike when it can generate twice the horsepower., Don't look like no beginners bike to me. We ain't even got started talking 'bout the Buell, Harley’s answer to Japanese super bikes, being based on the Sportster. But we will leave the Buell out of this since it arguably isn't a traditional Harley. Besides, Shortster, we don't want to beat on our bigger brothers that bad, now do we? The goal here, afterall, is to gain some respect not losing friends. Superior Technology Likewise, we won't go into the Buell's overwhelmingly superior technology. It is obvious and doesn't have to be stated. The traditional Sportster has always had advanced mechanical principles applied to it Motor builders have long recog$@#*!nized this, some examples of which are: a. Pushrods that go straight up and down instead of wild angles like in the Big Twin. This is accomplished by using 4 cams instead of one. Each cam sits directly under the valve it controls. Therefore the linking pushrod and lifter is straight in line as opposed to having to cope with the Big Twin angled version. The 4 cams allow for individualized cam gear timing for each valve…not a compromised one gear timing as in the Big Twin. b. Did you ever wonder where the three-hole oiling crankpin you buy aftermarket to replace the single oiling hole Factory one in your Big Twin came from? You got it, standard Factory issue since the beginning in the Sportster. There are three connecting rod races riding on three sets of bearings, side by side, on the crank pin. This is the center of the engine. The Big Twin has one hole in it's crankpin that directly feeds the center set of rollers. The oil is then supposed to squeeze, side to side to lubricate the adjacent bearing sets. The Sportster has an oil hole for each roller set to ensure equal and sufficient lubrication. c. The trochoid (rotor) oil pump, standard issue since 1977 on the Sportster, produces both high pressure and high volume while the lowly Big Twin still has a gear-driven pump that only produces moderate pressure and volume. Straighter pushrods along with the 3 hole oiling crankpin and the trochoid oil pump have all been adapted into the new technology Fathead Twin Cam 88’s. Real Men ride Sportsters Speaking of the old days, let's have a look at the people who defined and framed what the "Legend" was supposed to be.We all ride Harleys for certain reasons but certain people created the aura that we all bask under. When watching early biker movies, you see the ”Real Deal” riding their beloved "CH's" that today have become living legends? Nobody I know laughs at or puts down these guys. It was a man's world and these men didn't see a feminine side to anything they did. And, yes, the "CH" is short for the brutal, knee-busting, kick start Sportster. Don't look like no half-Harley to me even though that's what some call it. Yeah, so they call it a Girl’s bike in a derisive manner. This connotes frailty that inhibits them from handling "a man's bike." Well if you think about it, a smaller, physically weaker person would be better suited to a Softail with a lower seat height, a lower center of gravity and a set of front forks that pivot more easily on a smaller contact patch, skinny 21” wheel. That's if you think.Sportsters seem to have a higher center of gravity, making them more awkward to the uninitiated. Not to mention needing long legs just to touch the ground. Entry Level Model So why on earth does Harley make this bike, its entry-level model? It's harder to learn on and it's the prototype for its factory racers-in order to prove it has a superior product in terms of speed. I don't understand it….but that's the way it is with Harley. What should be isn't, and what isn't should be. I know, I know. The real reason the Sportster is the entry-level bike is that it's less expensive than the Big Twin models. Superior speed, superior technology….all for a cheaper price.Just wait until feminism gets a firmer grip in the last bastion of chauvinism, Harleydom, and deals with "the Girl's Bike syndrome" and its connotations of weakness. It'll be fun to watch for those who love a good winnable fight. Now how about the men who ride and must put up with this reverse discrimination? Maybe feminism will wipe the slate clean. Factory Racing The Sportster has been the Factory racer in differing events for over forty years now. This began in 1952 with the advent of the Flathead side valve K model that was the predecessor to the overhead valve Sportster in 1957.These racers first known as the KR and later as the XR were the Sportsters that Harley Davidson sent out to defend the faith. Back in the Sixties, the English bikes were a serious threat, both in racing and in sales to Harley Davidson. Marlon Brando rode a Triumph in The Wild One not a Harley. The Sporty led the charge when it came to converting English bike riders to the "Milwaukee Limey." Yes. The "Girl's Bike" has dominated Flat Track racing forever…you know, where you go full speed around corners with no brakes. Hillclimbing…a brutal sport for the brave where Sportsters go up hills not suited for motorcycles…again is dominated by our hero. And on it goes into the 1990's with Harley's first serious road threat to the Japanese racing community with the Sportster based Buell. Meaner Than a Junk Yard Dog! Here’s another one. What other Harley, or motorcycle for that matter, has crippled more people than the legendary Sportster kickstart? If rebounding compression isn’t dislocating the knee or throwing the rider over the handlebars then the slip-through kick start gears extend the leg past where its supposed to go….snapping the kneecap. “Sportster knee”, the tell tale limp, familiar with riders of the era is a badge of honor. The electric start has saved a whole generation from this mind numbing pain. How come this"half-a-Harley" with a short man complex is meaner than a junk yard dog? Even the mass media glorified the Sportster a long time before it recognized the “old man’s” bike, the Big Twin. Oops, I have to watch the reverse discrimination. Then Came Bronson "Then Came Bronson” was the first and only TV Harley hero who traversed America, meeting every challenge society could throw at him on his Sportster XLCH. The Bank Robber's Choice In the late seventies and early eighties, some bank robber gangs even used the Sportster as a get away vehicle…faster than the Big Twin police bikes and more nimble through traffic. Evil Knievel Last but not least…..Evil Knieval. I never saw him riding a Big Twin. He is a Sportster man….all the way to the hospital and right back on them again. The much maligned Sportster doesn’t look like a bike for the frail or weak of mind to me. | ||
| Ratbuell |
The twincam is a heckuva motor...for what it is. And most importantly, it's what the buyers want. Look at the competition - Victory runs a 100-inch motor now. And this is definitely marketing to the "bigger IS better" group, lol. But most HD riders (I say MOST, don't flame me!) like to cruise and aside from dyno-d**k-waving could care less about HP. They live in the torque band, not the power band. For that purpose, the engine serves perfectly. The XL is, and always has been, the "sports car" Harley. Tall and narrow for better (everything's relative, remember) lean angles in the turns, higher revving powerband, common engine and trans cases for weight savings, etc. Unfortunately since it *is* smaller and lighter, it got the rep as the "girls" bike. I can think of two male-owed late model XL screamers in my dealership right now - one is a box-stock (looking) 2000(?) 883 with a 1250 and stage 3 XB heads. Talk about FUN - you can run thru what little gas there is in that peanut pretty quickly! Kinda the Sportster version of a 440 Dart, LOL. I just wish HD could find a way to get that powerband in a chassis that vibed less (the rubber mounts were a BIG step in the right direction), and could get the handling without the 'tall and narrow' tippy-ness. (I know...Buell). Lots of folks would come back to the Sporty if it were a little more user-friendly...you may read that as "rode and handled more like a big twin" if you like. The tall CG is what keeps a lot of women off of them in my market though; they tend to go for the Deluxe, Road King, or Street Glide. And, our first Rocker C went to a lady! (The Rocker and Rocker C, interestingly, are becoming known as a "girls bike" as well here in Maryland for some reason). Me? I keep my old Evo road pig for cruising, and for when the wife wants to go for a spin. It's a .005"-over 80" motor that I'm getting 90hp/90tq at the wheel; plenty for what the chassis and brakes can handle (those old one-pot calipers up front ain't the greatest when you're burning into a turn too fast!). It's also fun to scrape and spark my way through a battletrax course on it, LOL. | ||
| Road_thing |
Me? I keep my old Evo road pig for cruising Me, too!  rt | ||
| Cityxslicker |
The only line in the family with 51 years of continuous production. You can call it a girls bike if you want, it might make you feel better after staring at my tail light all after noon  I was always a sucker for the original 57, couldnt get one, so I am slowly building a tribute bike to the inaugural model. Next step, laced wheels, then the shocks, then...  | ||
| Ducxl |
Which shovel is more attractive? Cone...or pan bottom? I say cone..the last departure from the pan. Seems,Harley is all about slow and steady evolution | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
I would be the very last person on God's green earth to disparage anyone's shovel, after all, "de gustibus non disputandum est" But to be brutally frank, it has all been pretty much downhill from the aesthetic point of view since they pulled the Knucklehead (c. 1936-1947). Am I right, oh my brothers?  | ||
| Leftcoastal |
Right as Rain, GJ | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
In order of 'beauty'! Knuckle, Pan, Flathead (boring, but I like), Shovelhead (Pan bottom or PanShovel), Cone Shovelhead, Evo. Without venturing earlier or into various deviations! | ||
| Citified |
I think pan goes before knuckle. | ||
| Ducxl |
Pan is MOST definately AFTER Knuckle | ||
| Citified |
I looked real hard and... nope, pan still better looking. | ||
| Buellfart |
So true,the Knuck was the last mechanically beautiful Harley. Its' right up there with a Vincent,well,almost.I almost bought 60 c.i. one last year for ten grand;glad I didn;t because of the parts nightmare but it sure would have looked good in my garage even if it was just sittin there. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Just a couple quick things... In the "old days", a stock sporty was lucky to make over 50 HP. I don't know what the "old days" were for you, but an XLCH 900 was making 60+hp by 1966. He hasn’t even reached for the big gun yet….the stock Sportster 1200S with a hundred ponies at the rear wheel. Err... a 1200S makes something like 65 hp at the crank, so 100 at the wheels just isn't possible on a stock bike. But to be brutally frank, it has all been pretty much downhill from the aesthetic point of view since they pulled the Knucklehead (c. 1936-1947). AMEN!!! |
