| Author | Message | ||
     Sprintst |
As I stated awhile back, bikes w/out the latest electronics are going to suffer in the press http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2011/12/without- traction-control-and-down-on-power-can-the-2012-ho nda-cbr1000rr-still-compete/ It’s easy to feel a bit sorry for liter bikes as 2011 slowly becomes 2012. They’ve reached some sort of pinnacle — without exception the entire class is now so impossibly fast that the bikes have become distinguished not by power or handling, but by the efficacy of electronic rider aids. Even while technology progresses exponentially, model cycles are stretching longer and longer and cash-strapped buyers are increasingly hanging on to perfectly good, five-year old motorcycles rather than upgrading every two years. Into that mess enters the 2012 Honda CBR1000RR, a minor facelift of a model originally introduced four years ago. A bike that’s not only down on power compared to every single one of its competitors, but lacking any sort of traction control, much less wheelie control, launch control or any other whizz-bang rider aid too. Photos: Brian J Nelson } (Message edited by sprintst on December 20, 2011) | ||
| No_rice |
as long as i can disable all the electronic crap they keep adding on to the new bikes im good. i dont want it. takes half the fun and skill out of riding. | ||
| Tbowdre |
I love the idea of playing with these systems and the safety net they offer when you're really hauling a55. My concern is the troubleshooting algorithms that will be required as these systems age and ultimately have failures.... as all things do. we'll see whats up in a decade or so. then again, remember the days before fuel injection? I do and we had the same conversation. todd | ||
| Timebandit |
> "as long as i can disable all the electronic crap they keep adding on to the new bikes im good." yeah, i hear that. but rather than paying for something you have to disable, i'd rather just not have to buy some of that crap in the first place. it's kind of like having ABS on my car. it's both good and bad. in terms of safety for the average guy who's inclined to just stomp on the brakes, it's a good thing. but put it in a performance car, and add a driver who's skilled at threshold braking, and he will find that his stopping distances increase dramatically with ABS, he has less control and less safety -- instead of more. sometimes these systems are designed toward the least common denominator in driver skill. that's definitely the case in passenger vehicles. I've had ABS on my BMW R-bike since 1993. I have to admit, as helpful as it may be in the right circumstances on wet/icy/slippery pavement, using it in dry conditions tends to teach people really bad riding habits. it's a crutch that's good for inexperienced riders, but it can be something that really gets in the way of experienced riders. like you said, half the fun and skill get factored out of the equation. | ||
| Cataract2 |
For riding on the street I would welcome ABS. Maybe some traction control, but like others I do want the ability to turn it on or off. | ||
| Sprintst |
The 1190R is going to face the same scrutiny, if not more, as will the mainstream models. | ||
| Jdugger |
The electronics make a difference for us mere mortals. The key is to use them to help you avoid an oops, not set them up so they are riding the bike instead of you. Call me a fan. And a puss. But, at least come hand me my ass in a race before you completely criticize my position. | ||
| Freight_dog |
Apparently the Gixxer is the last mainstream liter bike without TC or ABS. That is a selling point in my book. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I like the fact that Loretta will go full sideways if I'm not careful. Keeps me alert. (Message edited by zac4mac on December 21, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
Traction control might make sense for track days, but on the street it seems 's a not going to help when you hit a patch of gravel or oil or the like. ABS seems a lot more valuable on the street than traction control. I've not gone down on the street from loss of traction or due to brake locking up. There were a few pucker moments on the brake leaned-over on a wet surface though. | ||
| Sparky |
Forget traction controls and electronic nannies, what we 2-wheelers really need instead is an invention like an instant-on gyro system that would maintain the bike's attitude when traction suddenly goes away to keep it from falling down. That could bring a whole new level of safety to motorcycling, wouldn't it? | ||
| 1324 |
I've had these same sentiments for some time now...in regards to the media/press, that is. This rider-press paradox is eerily similar to what physicists call the Observer Effect. Just the simple act of observing something will forever change the outcome. In this case, the media makes a loud enough stink for rider aids - based largely on their success at the pinnacles of racing - and manufacturers listen, since the press 'represents the buyer'. As a result, motorcycles are sold and manufacturers infer that the products sold because people wanted them. No one notices that the products sold because there were no other options in many cases. The media/press have a thoughtful way of telling people what the people want. In some cases, this drives competition and the end result is good. In many cases though, I've found a lot of over-hyping with little substance. Show me a rider who can describe what they want in a motorcycle without regurgitating a press release or brochure and you'll have a rare case on your hands. I, too, fall victim of this. | ||
| Sprintst |
Well said 1324 Frankly, I think that is Buell's genius - he designed a bike with features I didn't even know I wanted until I owned one | ||
| Ratbuell |
A feature I want on a motorcycle? Something that MAKES CAGERS NOTICE ME. And having ridden HD police motors with ABS...it is pretty darned cool to have. 45mph on a course, and simply hammer the brakes as hard as you can...by the time you get past the thought "holy crap, this is working!"...it's time to put your feet down. NOW. Because you are no longer moving. | ||
| Timebandit |
> ... simply hammer the brakes as hard as you can... That's a pretty good example of how ABS can get in the way of developing skill at braking. It sets an upper limit on what you're allowed to do before a processor takes over the job for you. The result is that finesse with the controls can be traded off for a "mash it on" approach and the bike does the thinking for you. ABS makes it easy for an unskilled rider to go fast and stop fast. It also makes it easy for anyone who uses it excessively to develop bad habits. Sometimes it takes the fun out of riding. Ride a bike with ABS for too long and you could lose some of your skills. It happened to me. Having ridden an ABS bike for 18 or 19 years, I can honestly say that the ABS is great if you're interested in touring and you don't care for hypersport riding, but I'm not so sure it's a good thing to have on a hypersport bike. I think that having ridden a bike with ABS for so long actually caused me to lose some of my braking skills -- I had to re-learn performance braking all over again when I bought the 1125. You can forget about performance braking on an ABS bike because the ABS will activate long before you get anywhere near the limits of the tires, the bike, or a skilled rider. Some people dislike ABS so much that they get rid of it. There are a surprising number of hard-core guys who have been disabling their ABS systems for almost 20 years. I've thought about it. ABS does provide an added measure of safety for average riders in most riding conditions, and for more skilled riders in poor riding conditions. But it gets in the way of a skilled rider who is pushing the bike to it's limits. It's a great asset on a sport-touring bike. It's even OK on a sportbike if you don't routinely push it to it's limits. But if you're a hypersport rider who wants to push the bike to it's limits, you'll probably find ABS to be annoying and you'll probably want the ability to turn it off... regardless of what the journalists have to say. (Message edited by timebandit on December 21, 2011) | ||
| Duphuckincati |
My 1948 Indian Chief was way ahead of all this. No electronics either. Crappy brakes & @45HP = abs and tc. | ||
| Rodrob |
One of the things I really love about my 1125R and doubly so for the 1190RS, is the wide and linear powerband. This in and of itself makes for good traction control. The 1190's power is so smooth, wide and predictable that it just never does anything you don't expect. I spent a couple of days on a BMW 1000 in my first few months of racing and the traction control probably saved my bacon a couple of times when the power suddenly came on like gangbusters exiting turns. That said, I would really like to spend some time on a traction control bike now that I have a lot more experience. I am really curious to know the difference between where I think the limit is, and where the bike is sensing the wheels starting to slip. I think it would be valuable training. ABS would have probably prevented my last crash on the track, which I am still healing from (aaarghhh!) But I screwed up. But then again, isn't that the point of ABS? Those of us without the experience (or skill) of a Shawn Higbee, can use a little extra margin of safety occasionally. | ||
| 0300 |
In wet or semi-wet (which is much worse) roads I think ABS is not a bad rider's aid to have. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
I have spoken to a few track day riders who have high-sided riding bikes with traction control. In each instance they say they have no idea why they high-sided, and that they question whether the TC was working properly. In instances like these, it seems that the electronics provide neither a margin of safety nor help the rider safely find the limit. Here, the rider aid just adds another variable for the rider trying to figure out what happened. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Tv can be disabled or even defeated in many cases. Maybe the riders who high-sided had the tc dialed back so far that it couldn't intervene sufficiently to avoid a crash? | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Having crashed three times (over 15 years or so) on the street, each time due to exceeding the front tire's traction during braking at low speed, I would say that I'd definitely like abs as a safety net such as when tire traction is lower than I'd expect due to cold temps, for example. Tc, on the street, seems a little less worthwhile. IMO it is much easier to recover from a little excess throttle than it is when I've locked the front tire at sub 20mph and gone down before I've even realized the tire has lost traction. | ||
| Jdugger |
Tc helps... it does not work miracles. | ||
| Froggy |
While I have never had a crash related to something the traction control would help with, I would love to have it on my next bike. ABS is a must though, I know for a fact it could of prevented one of my spills. | ||
| Timebandit |
> "One of the things I really love about my 1125R and doubly so for the 1190RS, is the wide and linear powerband. This in and of itself makes for good traction control. The 1190's power is so smooth, wide and predictable that it just never does anything you don't expect." You could say the same thing for the 1100/1150 cc BMW boxer twins. Big displacement, lots of torque, good HP, wide linear powerband, bike never does anything that you aren't expecting. > "Those of us without the experience (or skill) of a Shawn Higbee, can use a little extra margin of safety occasionally." Yes. Definitely agree. And I'd go one step further, and say that you don't have to have a skill level that's on par with Shawn Higbee to notice those times that ABS helps you, as well as those times that it gets in your way. Although I'm certainly not in Shawn's league, I have chased him on an X1 on back roads in Wisconsin. Even though I'm not in his league, I still find the BMW's ABS-2 to be a PITA at times. Although I haven't completely disabled it, my RS has the ability to override it/turn it off completely until the next restart. On the subject of being valuable for learning, I'll be the first to admit that I certainly have learned things by paying attention to when/how the ABS activates on my BMWs. Knowing when it activates does teach you what kind of situations it's designed to "protect" you from, and knowing about those situations could help riders learn better judgement to avoid situations like them. It could teach a less skilled rider learn a thing or two that might help to refine their judgement and their braking skills. But the other side of the coin is that unless you've got another ride, you will never be able to learn how to brake beyond the threshold that is defined by ABS activation. My ABS-equipped BMWs take away the rider's ability to be responsible for braking in those situations. In that setting ABS establishes an upper limit to the development of your braking skills. IMHO that is why ABS can be bad to have on a bike. The ABS does activate too early in those situations where a skilled rider is riding the bike hard, beyond the arbitrary limits that were set at the factory. Ultimately, I don't like it when the ABS decides to take over braking for me. Sometimes, instead of stopping the bike RIGHT NOW, ABS decides to slow the bike, and prolongs the stopping distance with the expectation that I should be able to "steer around" whatever is ahead of me. I don't like that. I can honestly say that with and without ABS, I've never had a down that ABS could have prevented. I can also say that ABS has prolonged my stopping distances in times that I wanted to stop fast, and that the prolongation of stopping distances was in and of itself, a problem. I can also say that with and without TC, I've never had a down that TC could have prevented. Those times that I have gone down, there was nothing that ABS or TC could have done to help the situation. When you exceed the limits of traction, it's over. Sometimes even the best judgement fails, sometimes judgement isn't the answer. Sometimes, like a dog-strike, or hitting loose pavement when steeply banked in a turn, you're going to go down and your at a point where neither ABS nor TC nor throttle is going to help you. Barring unforseen/unavoidable circumstances, I prefer to rely on rider skill/judgement and a properly functioning set of controls. I'm not convinced that computerized controls are the answer, but they may be a really valuable learning tool. They certainly have taught me a few things about my bikes. | ||
| Ratsmc |
The lack of understanding and knowledge about traction control in this topic is astounding. Everyone's got an opinion though and is positive they too good to ever accidentally spin up the rear on a 180hp bike. | ||
| Blake |
My point was that on the street encountering gravel or oil or other traction negating road hazard, TC will be of no help. Riding on the street like you are on the track is a guarantee for heartache, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually. Frank, Let's not exaggerate. ABS is not a "must". Part of the satisfaction I get from riding a motorcycle is the connection between brain and machine. I like knowing that I must control the bike within applicable limits and that dire consequences may ensue if I don't. I'm not trying to go faster than everyone else like on a racetrack, just want to enjoy the ride. ABS surely is a nice feature to aid in a panic stop scenario for sure. Hope your winter riding is not so perilous this year. I don't know how you do it. | ||
| Ratsmc |
TC is a lot more advanced than I think people give it credit for. You don't need to be going fast to spin up the rear on gravel and when you do, the TC is going to cut the spark. IT won't bring a slide to a complete stop but it will respond far faster that a human can. And ABS doesn't really remove your control, it is only there for those times when you've just misjudged the limit by a tiny fraction. The one time that tiny mistake happens when someone makes a left hand turn in front of you could be your life. I tend to have the opposite view: give me the safety net on the street where I am not in control of all variables but leave that crap at home when I'm on the track. When I'm pushing the limit, I want to be the one in control - that's why I'm there. If I wanted the bumpers on so I didn't have to worry about making a mistake, I'd just ride a rollercoaster. Now, racing is a bit different. If I was chasing that last half second, I'd want any advantage I could get. | ||
| 1324 |
The gravel argument is one that I don't fully understand. While I completely understand the implications associated with spinning up the rear, TC won't help (much) on gravel. It won't prevent the front from washing out, and it won't add traction to the rear tire, either. All it will do is prevent wheel spin after slip has been already been detected. If you're washing out your tires on gravel, cutting spark won't help. You can crash on gravel with the engine off, bike in neutral. I can wholly see the point if you're ripping around at track speeds on a mega-hp bike. Short of that...not sold...YET. I reserve the right to change my mind, though. ABS? I go back and forth. Mashing the brakes in the rain during my Speed Triple test ride was cool. Will my next bike have it? Only if it's good. If it intrudes in any way during normal riding, I'll pass it by. The new Speed Triple R is rumored to have switchable ABS. Now we're talking... | ||
| Ratsmc |
So, you've never, ever gone around a corner and spun up the rear because you were getting on the throttle? And you've never met anyone who has crashed because of doing the same? I just ran into a guy the other day who crashed and couldn't figure out why. After recovering himself, he realized there was gravel in the corner from construction further down the road. It couldn't be see unless you were standing right next to it. Have you tried the CBR1000RR? The ABS on that is really impressive. However, any good system should only engaged when you are on the very edge of losing traction. if your normal riding is getting you to that point, you might want to look into life insurance. The old BMW ABS systems were garbage. | ||
| Kenm123t |
In 93 we did a Corvette test drive that was to demo abs and traction control. We drove vettes over a soaped rubber mat that was so slippery some people couldnt crawl off of it on all fours. With out abs you slide the entire 50yards till you hit asphalt. if your rear tires were still on the mat you could not drive off the mat till you turned the traction control. Abs and Traction control are far faster reacting that the Seat of the pants feel. Some systems will be better than others but any system is better that your seat. |
