| Author |
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Ezblast
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 03:53 pm: | 
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Maybe the previous owners tried cleaning them with wire pipe cleaners - enlarging the holes - I suspect that.
EZ |
Samato
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 03:55 pm: |
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Hmm, perhaps. I will replace jets tomorrow and report back. |
Samato
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 05:18 pm: |
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So just to make sure I understand this part...
If someone with a properly running Buell Blast were to disconnect the Auto Enricher and Throttle Position Sensor the bike would still start and run fine and this would not cause any problems (assuming the outside temperature was warm enough to not require choke for startup)? |
Ezblast
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 05:34 pm: |
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Might have to control the throttle a bit, but yes - that is the general fact.
EZ |
Gearheaderiko
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 05:43 pm: |
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Not exactly. The choke would be stuck "on" if it were working properly. Heat pulls the choke off-so when its cold, its on automatically. It would eventually 'load up' at idle, but would run fine if you were off the idle circuit (IE riding the bike). Theoretically, the heat from the engine would warm up the enrichener and it would eventually open all the way. I have found though that if it is disconnected it may not open all the way or will take a long time to do so.
It will cause a rich condition at idle.
Regardless, you can unplug them and the bike will run (not idle) fine.
All the TPS does it switch the timing advance curve from light throttle to WOT (it still has an advance curve either way). Its very unlikely you would even notice the difference if it was disconnected. Unplugging it though does eliminate the possibility it was adjusted wrong. |
Gearheaderiko
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 05:47 pm: |
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Do you have a repair manual?
plug gap is .038-.043"
Directions on timing can also be found on this site. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/201 64/59815.html?1247364839 |
Samato
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 06:15 pm: |
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"I have found though that if it is disconnected it may not open all the way or will take a long time to do so.
It will cause a rich condition at idle.
Regardless, you can unplug them and the bike will run (not idle) fine."
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I'm confused by this statement. If a bike idles rich it would eventually result in the problem I'm having - fouling the plug, right? You say the bike would "run (not idle) fine". This also confuses me because I don't know of a situation where a person ever only "runs" a bike and never idles it.
I do have a version of the service manual that I downloaded from somewhere. Not sure if it's the same as the repair manual. I will make sure the gap is right tomorrow. I guess you're saying that could cause these symptoms? I didn't realize it was that critical. At this point the bike will start every time as long as the battery is charged, the spark plug is clean, and the fuel tank is connected and turned on. It just dies once the plug is too dirty (from running rich I assume).
I don't understand how this could be a timing thing but I'll try to read up on it and see if I can make any sense of it. |
Gearheaderiko
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 07:17 pm: |
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As I see it we have at least 2 problems: The poor running problem before the carb was taken apart and an additional problem after the carb was taken apart.
Many of the things suggested are not perhaps intended to cure your problem, but get one step closer to fixing it by eliminating possible causes. In this respect, bolting on another known good carb from a twin will not fix your bike, but it will tell you whether the carb is the issue. Disconnecting the auto enrichener and TPS (same plug) wont cure your problem, but it will eliminate those two systems from the problem. Therefore, no the bike will not act normal, but if the auto enrichener (or TPS) is bad, you've just eliminated them from the equation.
Your problem hasnt been idling, correct? The problem is acceleration? If you disconnect the choke (leaving it on/'closed') and dont ride the bike, yes it will load up and cause the problem you're having. But after initial start-up (and perhaps a brief 30 second warm up), it should accelerate just fine if everything is else working. If you let it sit and idle for 5 minutes, its going to foul the spark plug and it wont run.
Spark Plug Gap: If the gap is closed down, your bike will start much easier as it has less distance to travel to get a spark and can mask running problems. It however wont run very well at high rpms, because the bike is designed for 'more' spark and more spark always burns better. The small spark also wont burn the fuel off as well and will contribute to eventual fouling.
If your download manual say Buell Blast on it, its fine.
Timing: If the timing is severely retarded or advanced and everything else is adjusted to that, then it will have trouble on running above idle.
Severely retarded and it wont have the timing advance to accelerate.
Severely advanced and the timing is so far advanced that its out of running range once the rpms go up.
Theoretically, if you adjusted the TPS wrong, you might be changing advance curves as soon as you touch the throttle. This could adversely affect how it runs.(I have no practical experience of this though).
Static timing is easy to set, but I would unplug the TPS when setting it (just in case its adjusted wrong, it cant foul up your timing adjustment).
FWIW: I have been running without TPS for quite some time and have tested unplugged/plugged. You wont notice the difference whether its hooked up or not. I've also run with the auto enrichener unplugged. I have first hand experience on what it will do.
Again we're trying to eliminate causes and not perhaps directly fix the problem, but get closer to it.
When you get the jets, be sure that they look like the old jets. If someone has installed a non factory "Jet Kit", you may have incompatible parts.
Sorry, some are good with one sentence answers, I write The Manifesto! |
Samato
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 10:31 pm: |
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I certainly understand attempting to eliminate variables to get closer to the solution. I'm pretty ignorant and inexperienced when it comes to bikes but I'm an audio engineer so audio signal flow and troubleshooting have been part of my daily routine for years and the same principles apply here.
That said I'd love to put a good carb from another bike on but don't have one at the moment. Anyone in the Orlando, FL area have one I could use?
I've already disconnected the TPS and Auto Enricher and this did not change anything. I'm not convinced this eliminates the Auto Enricher variable however. Isn't it possible that the choke plunger (probably not the right name for it) is stuck in the wrong position and therefore there is still too much fuel passing through? I'm thinking about completely removing the Auto Enricher from the carb to eliminate this possibility. What do you think?
Just to be clear on the current problem/situation:
I can start the bike and accelerate as long as I first make sure the battery is charged, spark plug is clean, and the fuel tank is on. It will run for a few minutes then it stalls and the plug will be fouled - very black, thick soot but not wet unless I continue to try to start it after this. I just realized this description is too vague to help us figure out if the problem is idle or high-speed related. I guess I'll have to start it and just let it idle until it stalls (if it stalls), then start it and keep the revs high until it stalls (if it stalls). That would help right?
I'll have to look into how to check/adjust the timing.
I think we need to be sure if the problem is idle or high speed before proceeding, don't you?
I have no problem with the long answers. For me, the more information the better. Thanks. |
Swampy
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 10:52 pm: |
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It sounds like you enrichener has failed. As the bike warms, it closes. Yours is not closing. |
Gearheaderiko
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 11:26 pm: |
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"I think we need to be sure if the problem is idle or high speed before proceeding, don't you?" Agreed. Thats what I'm getting at. Start the bike, give it 30 seconds tops, then ride it. If it rides fine (normal riding, not stuck in traffic), then you know its just the idle circuit and the enrichener is stuck (as Swampy said).
You cant just remove the enrichener. You can remove it and modify the valve to stay stuck 'open' (I dont know how you'd do that-that'd be up to you. But break it and you're really stuck).
If it fouls while idling, then its probably the enrichener. Just letting it idle wont tell you anything about the high speed running though. Keeping the rpms up, will tell you about the 'off idle' running, but its limited. The engine requirements are different under the load of actual riding than just revving the engine.
Its very important that you do not let the bike sit and idle and 'load up' or foul the plug (my guess its really warm in FLA right now. You dont need much choke, so it'll foul quickly). Get it out and ride it.
You did get the right spark plug?
In addition. You checked the wiring (88a, 10b, etc). If the open wire to the enrichener is supplying power and its not, then thats your problem. If you read the wiring diagram you should be able to figure out whats power and whats ground. Its basically a simple circuit (but it may not get any power until the module says its running-IDK). There is also the possibility that some wiring going to the TPS AE plugs has broken. It sometimes happens that they wear through.From your previous post, I think this may be your area of expertise!
The fact that the bike now runs is GREAT news |
Samato
| | Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2009 - 06:29 pm: |
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Well, I threw in the towel on this bike today. I took it to the Harley Davidson dealership to have them diagnose it.
There were too many variables and I was not confident enough in my abilities to narrow them down. Yes, I could have replaced the jets first but my father is adamant that there is no way that is the problem. He is getting old and his knowledge is mostly old school but he's worked on a lot of motorcycles in his lifetime. I could have adjusted static timing and continued to trace wiring too but I'd had enough. I still think it's the Auto Enricher but at this point I want them to verify that or tell me it's something else. |
Samato
| | Posted on Friday, July 24, 2009 - 06:29 pm: |
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So the Harley shop told me it's the Ignition Module. I sure hope they are right because I don't want to pay $177 for the part and find out that doesn't fix it.
Now I have to decide whether to pay them $85 to put it on or if I can do it myself. That $85 is a big deal to me, not to mention the $177, so I'm definitely leaning toward doing it myself.
Do you guys think there is anything particularly tricky about putting one of these on? |
Gearheaderiko
| | Posted on Friday, July 24, 2009 - 09:45 pm: |
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No there isnt anything tricky about putting it in, just be sure you read here about the Deutsch connector.
HOWEVER, if they are wrong and you install it, its again up to you to figure out whats wrong and they ARE NOT going to take that module back. If they install it and they are wrong, then you **might not** have to pay for the part and they'll still have to figure out whats wrong.
You've gone this far, I'd pay them to install it-ask for the old parts back.
I'm not saying it is or is not the module. Its certainly possible and goes along with the previous line of discussion. |
Samato
| | Posted on Friday, July 24, 2009 - 10:16 pm: |
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I think you are right. I'll call them in the morning and tell them to do the work. Maybe I can have them credit the cost of the diagnosis to the labor to install the module. I mean, do they really need 1hr to put one of those in? |
Samato
| | Posted on Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 10:47 am: |
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It turns out their diagnosis was wrong. They replaced the ignition module with a new one and nothing changed. It's got to be the Auto Enricher or the wiring to the Auto Enricher I think. If I were them I would just put another carb on the bike, as suggested here days ago. I guess they are just used to plugging in to a little box that tells them what's wrong first.
At least they are honest about it. There are shops out there that would try to take advance of a situation like this.
(Message edited by samato on July 26, 2009) |
Samato
| | Posted on Monday, July 27, 2009 - 05:22 pm: |
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So they put a new carburetor on the bike and now it works fine. They claim it also needed the ignition module so they according to them they charged me for the 1/2hr diagnosis, 1hr labor and the ignition module - the carburetor was no charge.
It cost more than I thought and more than I was prepared to pay but the bike runs fine now.
I guess we'll never know what the real problem was. As I see it it could have been the Auto Enricher, wiring to the Auto Enricher or maybe some kind of crack in the body of the carb somewhere. I don't think the ignition module had anything to do with it but who knows? I do know that absolutely nothing changed when they put the new one on and the the LED on the old one always flashed the way it should. |
Swampy
| | Posted on Monday, July 27, 2009 - 06:47 pm: |
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Did you get the old parts back?
Glad you got it running fine, now go wring the money you spent on fixing it out of it, beat is like a bad dog! |
Samato
| | Posted on Monday, July 27, 2009 - 06:56 pm: |
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I got the old Ignition Module back but not the carb. I think I'll just sell it before I have more problems, and let someone else beat it like a bad dog. |
Gearheaderiko
| | Posted on Monday, July 27, 2009 - 08:04 pm: |
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Its a very reliable bike but I understand your concern.
Glad you got it fixed and I'm surprised they didnt charge you for the carb (because if you paid for the carb, I'd get it back-its worth $$). |
Samato
| | Posted on Monday, July 27, 2009 - 09:06 pm: |
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I believe they might be reliable but after all this I have a bad feeling about this particular one. Besides, I think the way they mounted the carb on a bike that vibrates as much as it does is a bad design. And what's wrong with a standard choke circuit like thousands of other bikes have been using for years? Yes, I'm a little bitter. Anyway, I think I'm more of a Honda guy.
Yeah, I didn't really ask about getting the old carb back since I got a brand new one free, if you look at it that way. I kind of think they just covered their parts costs by billing more labor. I mean, I can take the carb on that bike off and put it back on in less than 5 minutes and I'm sure they are better/faster than me. I don't think it would take them more than 1/2hr to put on an Ignition Module either. They probably are not making much money on this job though and at least they made it run; I guess I should be happy. |
Garlic_sauce
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 07:01 am: |
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So you got your bike all fixed up and running good but now you want to sell it? |
Ezblast
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 11:29 am: |
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Yes - ride it like you stole it. Go enjoy that Blast!
EZ |
Fathermike
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 03:51 am: |
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anyone know where to get a new auto-enricher? |
Gearheaderiko
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 01:13 pm: |
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Buell/HD dealer. Check the Badweb sponsors.
"Bottlefedbuell" also detailed a way on Badweb to make it into a manual choke if so desired and handy with tools.
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/201 64/6812.html?1304745967 |
Fathermike
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2011 - 03:21 pm: |
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Thanks, I found a site that has 2 @ $57 each and another with unknown stock but $49. I looked at the manual choke link & really appreciate it because I think it is the biggest crock that there's not a manual option OEM or aftermarket available as a kit. The auto-enricher is a great idea until it fails, because it is highly unlikely that it would fail in the "off" position, meaning always being stuck running rich until it gets replaced. I haven't tried EZ's super sparkplug but I'm kind of scared to waste $35 fouling it with a bad AE.
I had my AE apart and beat the piss out of the needle end of the plastic cap when my hands went numb from the cold while working on the damn thing in the dark =[
As such, I don't know if I could use this manual choke idea. If someone has a dead one I could have for parts, I'd love to try this manual choke. Has anyone put one of those Edelbrock carbs on yet? |
Ezblast
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2011 - 03:32 pm: |
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I really don't think you can foul the racing plug, I had to be eight jet sizes too big to partially foul the regular Iridium - lol
EZ |
Gearheaderiko
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2011 - 09:50 pm: |
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If you're going to go to the trouble of changing carbs, you can just put on a carb from any carbbed Harley of the last 20 years. Its the same carb with a manual choke, no TPS and an accelerator pump (the pump needs to be disconnected if run on a Blast). You also have to swap piston springs.
They can be found cheaper than a Blast carb, but prices go up when Summers coming. I've never paid more than $50 for a used one. A local dealer might have a used take off they'll part with (but maybe not as cheap). |
Fathermike
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 10:56 am: |
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Thanks! Short-term I'm going to try dropping the the slow jet back to 40. I also found the gap on my plug was too small (.024) so maybe I can squeeze by with that combination (hotter & slower) until I can change out the AE or the carb altogether.
So, you said I can use a stock carb. What effect does it have to not have a TPS? Also, I thought I had read on here that it was ok to run an accelerator pump?
My local shop has a Harley carb if the TPS being absent isn't an issue. |
Ezblast
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 01:09 pm: |
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Primary too lean - go to a 45 primary, you will loose some mpgs though going to a HD choke, and if you keep the accelerator pump then your jetting goes down to 42/155. If you notice a 40 primary is not even mentioned then - way tooooooooo lean.
EZ |
Gearheaderiko
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 09:24 pm: |
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Without the TPS it defaults to WOT advance curve. Your mpg might suffer, but you probably wont notice the difference in running. Its not an issue.
I'm sure EZ knows someone running a CV carb on a Blast with the pump connected, but my experience leaves me doubting very much that the 42/155 combo will work very well. The pump is way too rich for the Blast and to lean the carb out to make it work leaves it too lean with normal running and likely very, very lean at the top end using a 155 main. If the accelerator pump was adjustable it would be more doable (it can be adjusted, but its not easy to do). Trying to tune the carb around using the pump is pointless as you really wont accomplish much for a street Blast using it. Not to mention the poorly metered fuel you'll be dumping in the carb will cut mpg too. I do know of some running tuber Buells and they also disconnect the pump.
Disconnecting the pump also makes the carb swap much easier as the jetting should be the same for both carbs.
Not sure how using the manual choke will cost you mpg at anything but start-up. It is very, very rich and you cant keep it on for long.
Just remember to switch vacuum piston springs as the twin spring is too heavy and the Blast spring is used as a high performance spring on the twins!!! |
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