| Author | Message | ||
     Booman443 |
Sorry in advance but this is going to be a short novel as I want to make sure no detail goes overlooked that could be the root of the problem! Last fall when I put my bike in storage I added Stabil to the thank however wasnt able to run it through the system due to the battery being to weak to turn the bike over. I also put off changing the oil and figured I could do it all in the Spring. Fast forward to last week: I took the bike out of storage and put the newly charged battery in, wanted to run it a bit to warm the oil up before changing it however when I checked the oil level the dipstick was dry, so dry to the point where I could see a dry reservoir as well. I figured oil must have backed into the crankcase or something since I couldnt find any evidence of a leak, I didnt want to chance it though and added about a quarter quart of oil, enough to where it was on the dipstick. Started the bike up and it started beautifully however 5 seconds later there was pressure escaping from around the dipstick, I shut the bike off, and drained the amount of oil that I had added. This seemed to solve the problem as I started the bike up again and it was fine, worked the throttle gently every ten seconds or so for maybe 45 seconds when the engine slowly lost power and died. I didnt think much of it since it was a really cold engine and it just needed some TLC. So I cranked it again a few times, each time it turned over and maybe made 5-6 "thumps". I assumed that I maybe had a fouled sparkplug or something like the excess oil plugged something up. I didnt have time to diagnose any further until today now. I took the bike out again and tried the starting process, it would turn over however the same 5-6 thumps, and nothing, so much to the point where as soon as I let go of the starter button it would die. I cracked open the air cover and the carb is wet to the touch with gas, a really strong smell, and a decent amount of white smoke came out as I opened the cover up. I checked the spark plug and it was VERY black and wet, replaced it with a new one but that didnt make any difference. I didnt have enough time now tonight to do anything more like check for spark but hopefully this weekend I will have some time. I live in downtown Milwaukee so its very hard to find space/tools to properly do anything and I'm a broke college guy so taking it to a dealer is pretty much out of the question. Any ideas? Warm weather is coming and I would hate to be missing out. I | ||
| Ezblast |
Make sure you are getting spark. That plug isn't getting fouled. Dump the fuel in the float bowl, and tank and start fresh, then us a can of starter fluid and see if you can get it to turn over and start, you may have gunked up the carb with the stuff sitting in the bowl all winter. EZ | ||
| Swampy |
Yes, it sounds like a plugged primary jet. It warmed up and came off the enrichner and with the primary and main jet clogged it won't run. | ||
| Booman443 |
Wow thanks for the quick replies guys, battery is on the tender right now and I'll see what I can do later on today. (I'm fairly mechanically savvy but taking anything apart is such a pain here in Milwaukee since I don't have the right facilities for it) | ||
| Reuel |
Black and wet spark plug? Guys, I'm going to guess he's got an issue with his float. It's possible, because it sat, there may be some fuel leaking into the carburetor, or maybe his float is stuck in the full-open position. Someone else had a similar problem recently, and I have noticed that in life, things come in sets. <digression>While working at IBM, I noticed that for about 3 weeks, I was getting several laptops a day to fix. Then, it stopped as suddenly as it started.</digression> The best check is to open the air box, turn on the gas, and let it sit while you watch to see if gas starts coming out. You could also try starting it without turning on the gas. After it's been running for a minute or two, turn the gas back on and see if it kills itself shortly after. Of course, I could be completely wrong. It has happened at least once before, although I can't remember for sure. | ||
| Booman443 |
So I drained the tank per EZ's suggestion, I'm getting spark, I need to pick up some tools before I can take the carb off and drain the float bowl unless there is an easier way that I'm not thinking of? I tied the clutch so I could look in the carb while turning it over, there is literally gas spitting out at times. A fair bit of white smoke as well. Reuel: I turned on the gas and let it sit, didnt see any gas coming out unless it would come out very slowly (as the housing already was wet from earlier). I tried starting without turning on the gas but its the same instance where its like the motor is running however as soon as I let go of the starter button it just dies, keep in mind I am nursing the throttle a little bit as I push the button. | ||
| Ezblast |
Don't nurse the throttle, check your plug for fowling. EZ | ||
| Booman443 |
I can't see any signs of fouling...I worked at S&S Cycle last summer so I asked them what they thought about it and they seemed to believe that my was filament on the enrichner was not functioning properly and that my particular bike (I bought it from someone who works there actually) always was a cold blooded one and once I got some heat in the engine it would be fine. Problem is that I would think I had already places sufficient heat in the engine with the multiple start attempts as well as having the 12V on long enough for the wax to melt? Could that be the case? | ||
| Ezblast |
Das Boot! | ||
| Booman443 |
Yes I've read that elsewhere about 1,000 times on this site haha...And yes I admit I had to look it up to figure out what you people were talking about (as well as gaze with admiration at my room mates 64 oz glass drinking boot). I will probably run to a HD for one, is that something they would have in stock or would I be looking at a wait do you think? | ||
| Ezblast |
Probably have it in stock - EZ | ||
| Booman443 |
Picked one up from Hals HD in Milwaukee...I'll post what I find out, meanwhile I'm keeping my fingers crossed as I really dont have any money to sink into this thing right now and its pretty much my primary source of transportation. | ||
| Booman443 |
So it would appear das boot is das dud. I had my dad come down and help troubleshoot with me as he owns a bike as well. We ran through the same motions I did to no avail. The boot was put on, old one inspected, no damage. Tried with the new boot, no luck. There is a huge amount of gas spitting out of the carb. Like it is spraying out of what I would assume are the low speed/idle system at the back of the throat near the butterfly flap. If you use starter fluid it will turn over but you need to keep the throttle at least half open and even then it pops wildly (way louder than even at speed, like gun shots) with only going into a fast idle every now and then. As soon as you give less throttle it wants to die. I would assume that so much throttle is allowing that slide to move upward, thus letting more air in to try to compensate for all the gas that is somehow spraying in. We took the bowl apart and everything was clean inside, tapped anything to make sure nothing was sticking. Jets appear to be in good shape as well. It didnt appear to matter if we had the airbox on or off for what its worth. So I guess I am back to square one. My dad mentioned it was possible the throttle position sensor is doing something as well as that enrichner. A mechanic from S&S Cycle (who I bought it from) told me that he has always had a hard time getting it started first in the Spring and that its possible that maybe putting a hairdryer to the carb to warm things up would help. Considering how much we cranked on it I would think that it had all the heat in it that it would ever need to start on a "warm day". One last thing, and this scared me when he said it because I thought $$$ immediately, but is it possible the ignition module is out of wack? Thus causing that popping, almost like a misfire if you want to call it that? As well as any chance of a valve being stuck open/closed? We checked compression on everything with our hands and there is definitely a lot there so I dont think the valve issue is legit... I guess I don't even know where to go from here? | ||
| Ezblast |
White smoke huh, hmmm, last time I had symptoms like that it was a loose ground - once under the seat and once up front, and as the up front one got worse it then refused to even start. On the front one I replaced all the parts with new parts and on the rear I just cleaned the connections and tightened. It could be ignition, and you should know that a Blast ignition isn't that much, however, I would check the plug wire, plug, and coil first to make sure they are all good to go. It is always good to eliminate the possibility of the Boot - it is a very cheep part - in more ways than one - lol EZ | ||
| Booman443 |
Ez, Yeah I saw that on here that a few people have had issues with the grounding points, gotta love the vibrations! I took that into account when I looked at the bike today now and I made sure the connections were solid. If you think I should though, yes I can go ahead and replace the hardware. We checked the plug, I actually replaced the plug right away thinking it was a spark problem but alas no luck. How do I go about checking the wire, short of replacing it? As well as the coil? Oh I guess I should have probably clarified that yes I did install a NEW boot as well as inspect the old one (left the new one on there), and yes I cranked her down rather tight, to the point where I was probably going into the rubber a bit, whoops. Oh and for what its worth I just heard back from a friend who does a lot of work on larger engines. He seemed to be concerned about the compression I was getting, said for me to get my hands on a compression gauge if I could...granted I checked it with my hand and it seemed strong, but he was thinking that a valve could have some carbon built up around it, that it could be causing my popping/mis-firing? I obviously do not want to re-do my topend unless I have to... | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
My 2 cents. It does sound like a wacked ignition module. You can unplug the TPS and see what it does to the timing (aka: Does it start). Sometimes electrical problems seem like fuel problems and visa versa. Even cold, starting fluid should get it going and it shouldnt take much to keep it running. Without reading again did you check the slow jet? Generally its something simple and not a major engine malfunction. Avoid the replace everything, take everything apart route to repair. If it ran before you put it away, its likely something very simple keeping it from running again. Its extremely rare that things go bad from sitting, especially to the point it wont run. | ||
| Ezblast |
Try cleaning and re-installing the front ground. You didn't replace a front isolator recently - right? Erik's right though - however, I would still test the plug wire to see if its producing good spark, and that will usually tell you if the coil is working. EZ | ||
| Booman443 |
Alright I'll try and get on that this week (its back to the old grind stone aka classes and work) so my time during the week is quite precious. What about the fact that when we sprayed a bit of starting fluid/either it would start (though obviously run poorly) but not start on its own? This idea was brought up to me just a little bit ago by my dad... "He says it sounds maybe like some carbon or something holding a valve off it's seat. that might explain why it starts on either and not on it's own. Either fires with less compression and the open valve might explain the loud, sharp exhaust note." Does that change my method of attack before I dive into anything more? Thanks, Josh | ||
| Ezblast |
Rear ground can do the same thing as well. Coil also. Also bad plug wire or plug. Try re-cleaning the jets as well. EZ | ||
| Swampy |
Did you pinch the slide diaphragm? Usually they backfire and won't rev up when they are pinched | ||
| Booman443 |
The top end of the carb hasnt been taken apart yet, though we had it (the carb) upside down at one point sort of shaking it while we were tapping the bowl area to see if it would shake the float loose, ended up taking the bowl off and the float was on good order. Is it possible that slide could have pinched the diaphram while we did this? I'm not all that familiar with how it works so I need to take it apart and have a learning session. On the plus side I am learning A LOT about my bike in this process! | ||
| Ezblast |
You checked spark at the wire? Checked Coil strength? Its got to be something basic - something we are missing that is staring us in the face - both grounds are torqued to spec? Battery any good? Boots fine - so exhaust is fine? No cracks etc. - you haven't been inside the top of the carb, so you should be ok there, did you check your vacuum line plug on the side of your carb? Check timing - maybe loose timing cup? Do you shut your fuel valve off when you park your bike? - do so. EZ | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Your profile doesnt say how many miles on your bike. An oil pump drive gear can go bad in less than 8000 miles, thats one possibility. But at this point you need to start doing some diagnostic research. A compression test will tell you if its a valve. A Blast will run with 80psi of compression. A collapsed lifter will change the exhaust note. Starting fluid will start anything when the carb isnt working right. As said, most things dont go bad from sitting. Carbonized valve-not likely. Clogged slow jet, collapsed lifter, more plausible. Something such as a loose ground, could have been close to a problem when you put the bike away and showed up as a result of the hard starting. Bad enrichener, stuck one way way and it will start, but slowly run bad. Stuck the other way and it will hard start, but can still run after a minute or two of warm-up. (at 34 degrees its an uphill battle to start a problem bike anyway) Not that much of this post helps. I do know that the Blast is a very resilient bike and it can be way off on a few things and still start and run. It might be helpful to us if you ran down the list of things you've done/checked already. At some point we'll be coming up with things that are plausible, but never likely to happen. | ||
| Booman443 |
Beautiful afternoon here in Milwaukee... A little update: I checked the grounds today..took them off, cleaned anything and tightened them back on good... Ordered a new ignition coil too off ebay sort of on accident (where you bid on something never thinking you will get it?) but that was only 10 bucks new from HD so I might throw that in just to see what it does. I started going through EVERY electrical connection to see if I couldn't find a loose wire (that would be my luck). How would I check the spark plug wire? Same with the coil strength? I took off the wire and it has no physical damage however the boot looks as if it might not be clamping the nipple on the sparkplug tight enough, however when I put it on it still "snaps" on? Also EZ yes the vaccum plug is on the carb good and tight. Re-fitted das boot. Turns out I doubted my dad for no reason, it was installed fine... The battery I've wondered about, I dont know how old it is as it isnt on the battery at all however it holds a good strong charge. Didnt have time to take apart the carb again and check the jets. Any prefered method of checking them? Gearheaderiko: That enrichener actually has been starring me in the face, I've been wondering about it for awhile now...Oh and the Blast has around 1800 miles on it FYI. With that collapsed lifter..wouldnt it right itself eventually with enough effort? Or am I thinking of this wrong, its been awhile since I delt with them last summer at S&S Cycle...providing they are built similar? Self adjusting? | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Okay, at 1800 miles look for something very simple. IE: dont go taking a whole bunch of stuff apart. I'd pay attention to what was already done to the bike. A head shouldnt be full of carbon at 1800 miles either. Apart from what the previous owner did, the bikes practically brand new. Heck, its not even broken in! If the engine cranks over, its probably not the battery. Unplug the headlight, it'll help with starting. If you cant find the headlight plug you can pull the fuse (have extra fuses handy though, they are very delicate). However, if it is the original battery, get a new one. 9 years is a very, very long time for a battery, even if its been taken of very well (which yours hasnt). Lifters should pump back up, but they dont always. Thats when they go bad. At 1800 miles it should be fine though (but thats no guarantee). If we'd known your bike only had 1800 miles, I think the collective advice would have been different. I still havent seen you mention anything about cleaning or changing the slow jet? Thats usually the culprit in your situation. If you get a new one, get a # 45. | ||
| Ezblast |
Concur! | ||
| Booman443 |
I apologize about not noting the miles...I'm posting on another Buell forum as well and I guess I mixed up which info went where haha...I actually sent an email to the previous owner about the battery, asking how old it was so maybe I'll get a timely response. I actually previously mentioned the jets (it has been re-jetted quite awhile ago to correspond with the V&H exhaust) I don't know what #'s of jets though unfortunately...Would that be engraved on the jet housing itself? | ||
| Johnnymac |
Yes it would. | ||
| Booman443 |
So I can probably part with the money for a new battery (sigh, I am such a cheapass) I just got an email back from the original owner... "Yep it is the original - the bike was never ridden that much, so there was no need to change the battery --- do you leave it on a trickle charger? " Which to answer that question, yes I leave it on one now, however last Fall when I first got it I didnt leave it on one, nor did I put it on one this past winter, instead I just took the battery inside and kept it on a shelf. | ||
| Booman443 |
Alright so here is what happened...I dont know how..but it happened...The "slow jet" somehow had backed itself out of the threads maybe over time and when my dad initially took the bowl off the carb I could have swore I saw something fall out (but he of course thought otherwise ha) turns out it was the slow jet. This afternoon I took it apart again and looked at it and saw a piece missing, luckily it was still on the garage floor...so I cleaned everything up and put it back in...It idles really fast but I adjusted the idle screw and that seemed to do it...not sure if that got bumped while working on it or not? Just got back from a 5 mile ride around the block(s) and everything APPEARS to be alright now...regardless of if this fixed it for sure, I want to thank EVERYONE who took the time to help me out with this and had the patience for my, what turned out to be, stupidity. So it would explain why the bike wouldnt start on its own without starter fluid, this is me guessing now..but because the slowjet wasnt there, the bike would only "semi run" when you gave enough throttle to have fuel picked up by the main jet? If I am wrong here so be it, as long as it fixed the problem, but I would be more comfortable knowing that really was the issue and there isnt something running parallel with this! (Message edited by booman443 on April 17, 2009) | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
"when you gave enough throttle to have fuel picked up by the main jet?" YES! Very good deduction. Ignorance, not stupidity. You cant fix stupid! Sounds like you've learned a lot. Its running    | ||
| Booman443 |
Granted the Blast is a thumper and I'm well aware of the vibrations but have you ever heard of this happening before? Or something like it at least? I have to believe the jet vibrated so bad over time that it eventually unthreaded itself? I know its "fixed" but the engineering student in me doesn't so much care about the problem but WHY there was a problem in the first place! | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Never heard of it happening before (not that it hasnt,just rare). Probably not tightened down enough, BUT it doesnt need to be that tight either. FWIW: as more people rigidly mount their carbs, vibration related carb problems may be become apparent. But its not a concern you should have. EZ and I rev our bikes out more than most (7500rpm) and I dont think either one off us has ever had this problem. |
