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Jlnance
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 08:00 pm: | 
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Harley has a BILLION in cash in the bank.
Harley didn't buy Buell so they could give Buell money. Rather they bought Buell because they expected Buell to give them money. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 10:04 pm: |
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Of course Buell isn't using it because we can't afford it.
Well you do have a very passionate, diverse, and educated fan base. We would love to see you win races.
I think I know how to do traction control w/o increasing the cost of the bike. I'll be the fist to admit that I could be wrong about that. But professionally I'm a computer programmer with an MSEE and course work in control theory, so at least I know a little about things like this.  If you're interested, the idea is yours for free. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:07 pm: |
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what a novel idea..... offering to help instead of criticize...this could catch on! |
Buellgirlie
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:23 pm: |
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how do i get on the jet to mykonos guest list???
D |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 03:52 am: |
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I think Erion should be given a little slack on his traction control comments. It isn't just him that is vocally against it, it is the whole of HRC and Honda as well as some very high profile team owners across the World in Superbike and Supersport/stock. They don't have it in their World Superbike CBR1000RR either, so the Ten Kate team had to build their own traction control system to be competitive at world level. The problem with allowing TC is that it increases costs for everyone down the grid, not just the top guys.
Of course Erion will use it if it is available, because he will do what is needed to win. That is why his bikes are regularly at the top of the pack.
There is also a lot of complaining about qualifying tyres, but if that is what it takes to be at the front of the grid then that is what you need to use, simple as that. |
Jackbequick
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 07:42 am: |
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During the Czech World Superbike races this weekend, one of the commentators remarked that the World Superbikes entries from the Honda factory team (or was it a Japanese team?) differ remarkably in parts selection from the Hondas built in Belgium.
The implication to me was that there is considerable variation from stock allowed in component selection and that it was all within the rules. So if TC was not prohibited, I guess it was inevitable that it would show up and be used.
Jack |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 09:14 am: |
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There are no 'factory' Hondas in world Superbike, although HRC does run full factory teams in British and US Superbike. The teams using Hondas in WSB have to build their own bikes up using whichever parts they decide are best for them. Some will buy a lot of parts direct from HRC, and no doubt the mothership supports some more than others. It is pretty widly known that Barros has been receiving some factory support this year with parts. The Ten Kate Winston bikes used by Toseland and Muggeridge are built up from showroom models using a lot of parts developed exclusively by the Dutch team themselves, hence the use of WP suspension instead of Showas or Ohlins. Because the Honda factory would not build a traction control system Ten Kate developed their own system in conjunction with a third party manufacturer (probably Motec, but I could be wrong). Ducati are pretty much the only team that has TC as standard on their road bikes, and up until now this has had to be removed or bypassed to make the bikes eligible for AMA Superbikes (One of many differences between the WSB Ducatis and the AMA versions which explains their relative lack of form in the USA).
The problem for organisers is that relatively sophisticated Traction control systems that are software driven can be 'hidden' in the bikes normal operating software and be almost impossible to find for race scrutineers. It is for this reason that the organisers have decided to make them legal eventually. This will of course lessen the specacle for spectators, with the rear wheel sliding antics like this being severely curtailed by the use of TC.
Building a relatively simple and workable traction control system does not have to be too expensive, and could operate just using front/rear wheel speed sensors and a crankshaft sensor programmed into the existing EFI system. Once the rear wheel speed exceeds the front then the system cuts power to one or more cylinders until the balance is redressed. Most race systems are of course a lot more complicated and adjustable than that though and feature some form of rider control to change between settings during a race if required. BMW have a relatively simple traction control system on their new R1200R model, and they are a pretty common fitment on sporty cars these days, so they don't have to be prohibitively expensive or the preserve of top flight factory teams. |
Revperf
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:17 am: |
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Since we are talking about how the MoCo spends it's cash. I was standing at the Indianapolis Powersports Expo five or six years ago and was visiting with certain folks in the know at H-D. The buzz at the show was how the MoCo just ponied up a mill-five or so for Byron Hines to go drag racing. This was the general reaction Bwaaahhhhaaa! Yeah right! Harley is going NRHA Pro Stock drag racing against the friggin inlines?! Their accountants must have told them that they needed to bonfire some cash! Kid you not. That is almost the verbatim response from the group of esteemed individuals. For about two years it looked like they group and every other naysayer was going to be right. Byron blew through the money in the development process like crap through a goose and promptly started running basically out of his own pocket. When I visited him at his shop in Indy last year during the show (It was after 9PM and he was still working on an old drag motor for one of his long time customers) he told me "Brian, I figured it up. What I was pouring into the V-Rod effort verses what I was taking out of it equated to me working for about a nickel an hour." Obviously the man has some cash but as Court alluded to earlier, this is the mentality of this kind of person. It should be noted as well that he took a lot of shite because of the rule changes allowed for the new platform as well. He didn't even qualify that bike for TWO years people. Fast forward. When he did, the legend wept in the pit area. Strong medicine. Anyway, as I wax somewhat emotional myself, the qualifying pass was just that, a qualifying pass. They got their ass handed to them that day. Amazingly though, the funding seemed to start seeping back out of the corporate soaker hoses. With success come the spoils. Now they are stacking weight back on the V-Rods to let the inlines catch back up. Give'm a minute folks. Watch and see that as the progress comes so will the financial support. I have a very strong suspicion that the MoCo didn't give Erik and crew the development money to just pacify them. They like to win too. |
Jimidan
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:11 am: |
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Let's hope that the money continues, after all the XBRR was designed to run in AMA Formula Xtreme, so why shouldn't it? They knew going in who they would be competing against...or at least they should have. They knew going in what skill-set the rider would have to possess to run with the likes of Bostrum, DiSalvo, Gobert and company, which is why McWilliams was brought on board.
If Buell/HD were going to go all poormouth about how much it cost to run a team at that level after the very high profile public release of the bike, then why did they design it for FX in the first place?
They could have designed a bike for CCS/ASRA much more cheaply than what they spent on the XBRR. Common sense dictates that the "plan" (as I understand it after reading the explanations offered here and elsewhere on the web) to have individual dealerships run raceteams at the FX level was doomed to fail...it is too damned expensive. Shucks, the dealerships have trouble getting enough money to run CCS/ASRA teams. They are just dealerships...
So I hope the MoCo's deep pockets continue for at least the McWilliams' team for the rest of the season...and I sure appreciate John Warr's dedication to this effort, even though the return on his investment couldn't be very good. He obviously is cut from the same cloth as Byron Hines, or even Erik.
What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday, does not apply when you are racing in a foreign country. But here they are, doing it anyway! His investment counselor is probably having a cow!
jimidan |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:33 am: |
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What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday, does not apply when you are racing in a foreign country. But here they are, doing it anyway! His investment counselor is probably having a cow!
The whole of the Laguna AMA races only got an eigth page in the motor Cycle News in the UK. Of that coverage 99.9% was about Neil Hodgson's podium finish, and the last sentence was about Bostrom being taken to hospital with dehydration. Not a single mention of the FX race at all, let alone any Buell involvement.
FX is a very American class that just isn't run anywhere else to the same rules (I know Australia has Formula Extreme but it is for 1000cc bikes like the 'old' AMA series). If Buell want to show the bike to a world audience then it would make more sense to pick another class to race in. The trouble is which one would the XBRR be competitive in? Sound of Thunder & Battle of the Twins are the only ones that come to mind, and these are relatively lowly classes in the UK run at club level only?
I agree with Jimi that building a racer for the masses in CCS/ASRA/WERA/Thunderbike would be a better commercial prospect and certainly more appealing for the average privateer, but I still salute Buell for building the XB-RR and putting themselves up for the challeng of FX racing.
Maybe a 'budget' racer could be sold that combined the XBRR chassis and bodywork with a mildly tuned XB12R engine? I'm sure they'd sell these by the boat load
We are the ONLY team racing an XB in the UK, even after introducing the Thunderbike series over here. There are lots of reasons for this, including lack of support from Buell UK for the series, but prime amongst them is that it takes considerably more time, effort and money to make a Buell competitive than it does a Japanese bike counterpart in the UK.
We regularly speak to people racing very quick SV650/700 variants etc that have no maintenance to do ALL YEAR, and just fill up with fuel every weekend. If something goes wrong you just go to the circuit shop and buy a replacement part. That isn't the case with the Buell unfortunately and everything has to be made or imported. We could have run two SV's for the season for what it has cost so far with the XB. Having said that, nothing gets more interest than our bike in the paddock |
Road_thing
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:37 am: |
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A nickel an hour is pretty good pay for a race mechanic, ain't it?
rt |
Revperf
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 01:54 pm: |
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Sheeeesh. Tell me about it. |
Jimidan
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 09:28 pm: |
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Trojan sez:
Always wear protection...er ah, not that one...this one:
"I agree with Jimi that building a racer for the masses in CCS/ASRA/WERA/Thunderbike would be a better commercial prospect and certainly more appealing for the average privateer, but I still salute Buell for building the XB-RR and putting themselves up for the challenge of FX racing."
The problem with just being in CCS/ASRA/WERA/Thunderbike is that there are very few spectators and no TV coverage. FX is the place Buell ought to be to get the best bang for its advertising dollar spent, but it has to show up for the races (read: spend some money!). I am glad they are in FX racing too and will be looking forward to the Mid-Ohio meet.
jimidan |
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