| Author | Message | ||
     Od_cleaver |
A word of caution to you guys worried about failing bearings. Avoid being a victim of “internet problem amplification”. I try to avoid this, but I failed this time. I replaced my wheel bearings as a direct result of what I read on this forum. One of the “tests” to determine if you have a bad bearing is to spin the bearing with the wheel removed from the bike. Do it every tire change goes the advice. So, during my last tire change with the wheel on my tire balancing stand, I held onto the stand axle (this holds the inner race fixed) and slowly spun the wheel. I felt definite notches. I pulled the wheel off of the stand and turned the inner race with my thumbs. I felt the same notches. I concluded that the bearing races were damaged and had them replaced with the new black sealed bearings. As I was leaving the shop I stuck my thumbs back into the bearings and did the “test” again. You can guess what I felt, but it was much worse this time. I went right back into the shop and talked (nicely) with the mechanic. He explained that I was feeling the inner spacer changing the side load on the bearing. When the bike’s axle is installed the spacer is aligned with the bearing. The dealer mechanic was correct. At home I put the axle in and the problem disappeared. I also pulled apart the old bearings at home. They looked brand new. I had good bearings replaced with hopefully better bearings. Conclusion: If you are going to do the “spin test”, do it with the bike’s axle installed. If you have been burned once by this “internet problem amplification”, wait until the wheel is almost seized and there is brown rusty water coming out of the bearing. | ||
| Court |
>>>>Are you suggesting I send the bearing to a place that specializes in analysis? I'm not sure. But it would be interesting to know what you find. I couldn't say this any better . . .
| ||
| Gamdh |
Interesting... my experiance was a little different. Keep in mind I changed them myself and was tapping them in by hand.. very slowly. I made sure the inner space was lined up exactly where it was supposed to be. So after installing the new bearings and doing the spin test... they were very smooth. | ||
| Hughlysses |
That's an interesting comment about the validity of the spin test. I replaced my rears based on feeling "notchiness" during a spin test at ~8,000 miles. I do recall reading comments to this effect back then, that this wasn't necessarily a good indicator that the bearings were bad. However, I removed the front wheel and compared it and they felt smooth as silk. Based on that, I opted to replace the rears with Koyos. Last tire change (with ~10,000 miles on them) they also felt smooth as silk. I replaced my front tire around 1,000 miles ago and the original NTNs still felt smooth (~18,000 total miles). | ||
| Edgydrifter |
I am guilty, perhaps, of falling for IPA (internet problem amplification, not the good kind of IPA) syndrome. My rear bearings weren't acting up, but the original orange face was completely obscured by a new orangish coating of rust, so I figured as long as I was spooning on a new tire why not just get the job done now. I ride almost every day of the year, rain or shine, so I expect I will have more issues with rust and such than most. Still, I hope that these newer bearings will hold up well and not rust over as quickly as the originals. | ||
| Hughlysses |
It's also worth noting here that once you remove a set of bearings, they are worthless. The process of hammering them out dents the races and/or balls. If they weren't notchy feeling before you took them out, they will be afterwards. DON'T try to reuse a set of removed bearings. | ||
| Etennuly |
My left side bearing failed. I still have it as well as the right side bearing. I just looked at them again. The right side turns as smoothly as a new one. The left one feels like it has square ball bearings in it and can barely be turned. When it shot craps it made an awful squeeling/squalling noise. It did so for about three miles. I was driving in town stopping at red lights, not over 30 mph. At first I thought it was a noise from an old truck that was following me. He turned at a light and the noise followed me  . I pulled over asap, got off to check the bike over, not knowing at that time what it was. Got back on it and it started that nasty noise again, right from the start. I stopped again, this time grabbing the rear wheel and feeling side to side play. Not good. I didn't want to ruin the wheel and axle so I called my son in law for a twenty mile pickup ride home. I have read many times about bearing failures since purchasing my Uly in May of '06. Same with the belt. I don't change things until it is time, and don't panic over what has happened to others. We all ride differently, care for our bikes differently, we all live and ride in different climates, and nearly all of our bikes have been in the hands of a dealership where we can only guess as to how it was handled. I am pleased that my bearings lasted 33,000 miles, and that my belt is still able to be a spare at over 30,000 miles of use. That would have been equal to three sets of chains and sprockets on my previous bikes. I expect better out of this new 'up graded' belt, as well as my new 'grease-able' bearings. | ||
| Ourdee |
“internet problem amplification” Here is how I knew mine were going bad.  If you have not put anti seize on your axel and see this, you could be in for an adventure. You will be able to tell it is coming from the seal. | ||
| Al_lighton |
I have spoken with folks at Buell that are quite knowledgeable on all of this, and can provide the following info. 1) The original FAG bearings (black) were replaced by NTN bearings that had better seals and less hygroscopic grease. The new KBC bearings have yet again better (stiffer) seals and still better grease. They also have a better lines of communication into the bearing supplier themselves. Bottom line, the change to the bearing isn't just some cost cutting move..they ARE better. 2) The design of the wheel shoulders and internal spacer tube are such that in the worst case tolerance stackup of NEW wheels, bearings, and spacer tubes, the inner race on the bearing OPPOSITE the caliper/rotor will be seated against the inner spacer with just less than 0.5mm clearance between the rear wheel shoulder and the outer race, and just less than 0.25mm on the front wheel. All of this assumes that the bearings are installed correctly (rotor side bearing seated in wheel, spacer installed, opposite bearing installed until inner race seats against spacer tube). What this means is that IF the bearings are installed correctly, AND the spacer tube is not damaged, overtorquing the axle slightly shouldn't cause an inelastic deformation of the spacer tube. If Mongo gets a hold of it and gets brutal with the breaker bar during installation, all bets are off. 3) The bearing installation tool is designed to push on BOTH the inner and outer races in a plane. During installation of the opposite rotor side bearing, if the installation forces are applied to EITHER, but not both, of the races, you can potentially damage that bearing. If you use the old "socket on the outer race with a hammer" method, you'll probably ruin that, and possibly both bearings. You'll likely coin the bearing races, and might damage the spacer, if you seat the outer race against the wheel shoulder on that side. And regardless of the potential bearing damage, if you walk that bearing in which is easy to do with the hammer method, your interference fit of the outer race into the wheel may be compromised. Buell doesn't utilize thermal methods (i.e., hot wheel, cold bearing) for installation, they rely on process control and proper tooling. 4) When a bearing goes more than a little bad, it is possible and likely that the end of the spacer tube can be damaged. In this case, the margins afforded by the design as described in 2) above can be affected. Some bearing removal tools can also damage the ends of the spacer. So inspect that spacer tube with each bearing change. 5) Related to 4, future service manuals may provide for an inspection dimension on that spacer tube. But it isn't there now, so here are the nominals: Rear Spacer Tube: 202.8 +/- 0.05 mm, 7.984 +/- 0.002 inch Front Spacer Tube: 107.9 +/- 0.05mm, 4.248 +/- 0.002 inch Hopefully this is helpful info. Al | ||
| Smolt |
Has anyone tried the JIMS or George's Garage wheel bearing removal/replacement tools? (Message edited by smolt on July 01, 2009) | ||
| Hughlysses |
Al- thanks much for following up and posting that. That's by far the most factual information we've seen posted on the subject. Related to what you posted, I noticed that my Harbor Freight bearing puller did nick the inside of the spacer tube on one end very slightly but I don't believe it compromised the end-to-end dimensions or fit. I also spent ~$5 on a Harbor Freight bearing installer which consisted of a set of plastic discs with a short aluminum driver handle that fits in the center. One of the disks fit the I.D. of the bearing perfectly. It has a seating face that rests on both the inner and outer races so that both are pressed at the same time. The handle helps you align the bearing fairly precisely so it doesn't tend to get cocked while you're tapping it in. Using the warm wheel/cold bearing method it only took a few very light taps to drive the bearing into place. I'd be interested to see what better tools are available out there too. | ||
| Scooter808484 |
Al, I just received my new spacer, thank you. I haven't gotten hold of a micrometer long and/ or accurate enough to measure my old spacer at least not well enough to provide any useful information. What I can say is that the old and new spacer essentially the same size. The new one might be very slightly longer, much less than 0.5 mm however. My old spacer had some damage around the circumference on the drive side. This was almost surely caused by my first bearing failure, as the latest is on the rotor side. This "could" have caused the ends of the spacer to be slightly less than parallel, but not by very much. (Also should have been replaced as part of the first bearing repair, which was a warranty job.) I'll continue look for a micrometer. The ones I ran into the other day were $200 or so, a little high for the once every ten years I need one. (Message edited by scooter808484 on July 01, 2009) | ||
| Court |
Just some photos I took Sunday . . . Al: Your information was VERY helpful. I am thinking about getting spare bearings, spacers and the proper tools. I'm not sure what I am seeing in these photos. The rust, at the very least, is ugly and I'm not sure why an exposed bearing would have any unprotected steel part.       | ||
| Snojet |
Court, Here is my .02 cents worth on your bearings. From your pics it looks like you have just outer surface corrosion/rust/dirt. I didn't see evidence of the grease exiting the bearings via the seals. The true test of the bearing is checking them with your fingers. (wheel assy removed) If there is any rough feeling, their bad. Need to replace at that time. If the wheel assy is removed for any reason. I would recommend replacing the bearings as a precaution. | ||
| Etennuly |
Rust courtesy of the NYDOT. Salt isn't sweet, is it?  I grew up in Northern PA, and did a few years in the Southern Tier of NY. Being in the autobody business, from votech school on, I left the Rust Belt for Florida after buying a ten year old car from Florida. Changing shocks on that car was easier than doing it on a six month old NY vehicle. I digress, sorry. I agree with Snojet, you have surface rust caused by salt intrusion into the unprotected bare steel surface. It looks like the one on the belt side will eventually fail just from this condition. That rust will continue to swell and grow under the seal into the bearing race surface. This is one of the reasons that several of us decided to put a liberal amount of anti-sieze on the outside of the bearing and seal. There must be a little bit of a protective clear coat on the other side. Note the corrosion on the bare aluminum caused by the salt. Keeping a light film of grease or anti-sieze on it will prevent further corrosion, it does not allow air and corrosive laden moisture to the surfaces. Note; You have to move at least as far South as Tennessee or North Carolina to avoid the conditions that precipitate the rust problem.  | ||
| Hughlysses |
BTW- I copied Al's post to the "Uly New Owner's Info" sub-forum for future reference. | ||
| Mnrider |
If I read Al's post correctly then the sprocket side should be installed first and bottomed in the wheel and the brake side should be installed until the inner race touches the spacer,that could be very important info because the brake side does not bottom in the wheel. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Mnrider- Al says the rotor side should be installed first, which I believe means the brake side. That's because the bearing on that side butts up against a boss on the swingarm, which fixes the position of the wheel side-to-side. The bearing on the other side butts up against a shoulder on the axle. Since the axle screws in, the position of this shoulder is "adjustable" to fit the dimensions of the bearing/spacer/bearing assembly. I'm pretty sure the shop manual specifies this method for installing the bearings as well. | ||
| Scooter808484 |
+1 on what Hughlysses says, shop manual says do rotor side first. Al's information helps make clear why that's the way to do it. | ||
| Ronmold |
Here's a dial caliper that should be fine, I don't think a micrometer's accuracy is needed for this app.: http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/serv let/product_6970_200308977_200308977 | ||
| Rwven |
Enough of this. Dwelling on this is having an adverse effect on my peace of mind while I'm riding. In two weeks I head off to Deal's Gap for 4 days and two weeks after 9 days up into the Canadian Maritimes and then over to the Finger Lakes. Unless the wheel falls off I am not going to think about wheel bearings. I'm going riding... | ||
| Motorfish |
Nothing is worst than riding with the black cloud of mechanical failure looming in your head. That is a great ride you have planned, enjoy! But at least you are armed with all the knowledge you need in case of a problem. You may want to write down the bearing #`s and specs, just in case you need to go to a bearing house. It seems that a lot of dealers don`t keep these on hand. Have fun. | ||
| Arkaybee |
Court's photos of the sprocket side are EXACTLY the way mine look at 10k. California, no salt, very little wet weather riding but foggy Bay Area. Come Tuesday, I'll have the tire off and will inspect the bearing to determine if the oxidation is purely cosmetic. Or not. If it's at all questionable, they get replaced and I'll obsess about something else. | ||
| Court |
>>>I copied Al's post to the "Uly New Owner's Info" sub-forum for future reference. Well done. I'd like to get Al . . . who I know has about 3- free seconds a day . . . to read the procedure in the Service Manual and comment as to his opinion of it's accuracy. I am going to print this material out and include in my Service Manual. >>>>Dwelling on this is having an adverse effect on my peace of mind while I'm riding. Don't let it. That's a dandy ride you've got in front of you and if I were you I'd go knowing full well that anal retentive folks about the globe and clawed, scratched and dug into every crevice of this bike. I'd plan on and bet you have nothing but a great time. Court | ||
| Rwven |
I've got a set of SKF bearings and a set of rotor & pulley bolts in my top box (along with a clutch cable).Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.... | ||
| Jlnance |
Take the BRAN with you. | ||
| Jphish |
There is a point reached... where one has simply done all they can do. I have changed out the NTNs for KBCs - but still carry a set of spares. The bearing swap, both front & rear, was done by the Buell dealer, so gotta trust they did it by the book. (the tech is a Buell owner) If it breaks, it breaks. But doubt I will have any difficulties...at least from bearing failure. Ride on. j | ||
| Hughlysses |
It's amazing to me how your perspective changes on this stuff. On my first long ride (~6 years ago, ~350 miles to Deal's Gap), I was riding a 20 year old Japanese motorcycle. I had a cellphone, a handful of tools in my tail bag, and a can of fix-a-flat. I carry more stuff than that on the Uly to ride around the block lately. The Uly certainly isn't less reliable than my old bike, I've just allowed myself to get more paranoid about problems. | ||
| Mnrider |
I'm just going to check my bearings when I do tire changes and not worry about any thing but enjoying my great bike and the ride. Its great to be informed about these things if you do have a problem,you'll get a fix faster. I read Al's post too fast,I'm at work.  Have a great 4TH everyone! | ||
| Etennuly |
Being paranoid about this and other Buell-like issues is just self placed anxiety that is crazy to hang on to. Of course blindly riding off to never land is not smart, but pre-ride inspections and knowledge are your friends. It is because of BadWeB I don't worry or fret about any of these kinds of issues. To me it is like having the best library possible for any problem that might arise. We can fix nearly anything if we know what it is and how to do it. This kind of thread saved me potentially hundreds of dollars for the damages that may have resulted in not being aware of the potential bearing issue. At 33,000 miles my bearing went bad, I knew it could go bad when it was new, but I knew immediately when it did, what to do. Had I not been informed by the good people here, I have no doubt, I would have limped my bike home on the bad bearing. That twenty miles would have destroyed the rear wheel/axle/spacer/and maybe the swing arm. The same is true for the fuel reserve light coming on. That could have taken days of spare time and frustration to find the wires that rub through inside the tank. I ride much more confidently being aware and informed. And we have the BRAN to fall back on. A network of friends, who at the drop of a hat, will help you no matter where you are. If you have a cell phone you can get to a friend, who can then get to the BadWeB where help abounds. There has never been a better more secure feeling bike for me than my Buell's. The Honda's I had in the past may have actually been more dependable mechanically,(incedentally I never rode any of them more that a few hundred miles from home, the Uly I will ride anywhere) but when you are 1,200 miles from home and something breaks, all physical things break eventually, no network of hapless riders are coming to the rescue. |
