| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
In the past, when Buell has addressed a problem, the problem has gone away. My NTN (Orange) bearings died, I put in the upgraded KBC (Black) bearings. Now, I'll just ride the piss out of the bike and see if they got it right. I'm betting they did. Crusty has a very good point here. With no evidence to the contrary, I'll bet the problem is cured. It seems pretty certain that Buell did extensive data collection and/or testing before making the change, and I'm sure they're watching to make sure the change corrected the problem. It'd be nice if Court could get confirmation from someone in the know, like Abe. "Yes, we changed the wheel bearings on (date) and we've had no reported failures since then" or something similar. | ||
| Blake |
Heat from swingarm and belt? Swingarm oil is all the way up front, nowhere near the rear wheel hub. It doesn't get that hot, in terms of what bearings are designed to tolerate. The heat transfer path from belt to bearing is also poor and if the belt isn't melted, again, the bearings are likely well within temperature design specs. | ||
| Blake |
I'm with Crusty and friends. The new bearings likely solved any issue. I've certainly not seen an issue on my '09. But it's just a tick over 3K miles at this point. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Just to add to the data field: 2006 UlyX, dealer-serviced by an XB owner (with me usually chicken-hawking his every move, because I can and because we get along well). Lots of rain riding, lots of dirt/gravel roads, the occasional stream crossing, lots of puddles in mud with a lot of splashing. No submerged hubs (yet). 5k service, needed a rear tire, ordered new bearings as PM. Orange bearings were "good" showing no clicking or notchiness, but on seal removal the brake side showed significant moisture damage / rust. Replaced with new black seal bearings. Riding habits are unchanged, still lots of water, dirt, and mud on the menu...and the bike hasn't been washed since I bought it. Seriously.  | ||
| Court |
So it sounds like no problems with 2009. No problems with new bearings? No problems with 2008? My main concern . . . as I look at mine . . . is that they are caked with rust. I'm going to try to clean them up a bit and see if I can coat them with a light coating to prevent the rust. | ||
| Hughlysses |
We have seen some failures posted for 2008's, but they didn't switch to the new bearings until ~September 2007, so early 2008 Ulys still have the old bearings. AFAIK no reported failures on 2008 or 2009 Ulys with black seal bearings. (Message edited by Hughlysses on June 28, 2009) | ||
| Midnightrider |
2006 Uly. Embarrassingly low miles. Washed occasionally. No off road. I hate riding in the rain so that's rare. I've been debating whether to change the bearings now or wait til the next tire change. Went out to the garage this morning....shoot, that back tire looks a little low. Well, a lot low. Well - flat. Nice nail dead center in the tread. I guess now's the time for a bearing change and we'll see what they look like | ||
| Mad_doctor |
Jlnance, thanks for the info on the 6006/6005 bearings, now I will try to get the info on both bearings. Just in the first glance, the 6006 bearing comes in a variety of ball configs, there are deep groove, medium load, light load, and very light load 6006 bearings. it does seem from what info I have at home, the SKF bearings ARE a heavier bearing, (able to take 8500 # load). and static load of 1300 #. there are the very light load 6006, that would fail with little or no effort. more to come. | ||
| Cyclone8u |
So who's got a late '08 to '09 model with some high miles and no bearing failures or preemptive replacement? Inquiring minds want to know. Then, if this is the fix, when will Buell let the rest of us in on the secret? Will there at least be a service bulletin (a full out recall requires some pretty stringent criteria to be met) requesting Buell techs to replace the faulty bearings with the new ones? Perhaps it's not a fix at all, just a random chance that Buell switched bearings part way through '08 production, and for what ever reason these new bearings aren't failing. I still think that, unless Buell already has the data and is just holding out on us, that we need to come up with a way to collect accurate data about these failures. I think Hughlysses' idea of a database similar to the Uly fuel mileage one would be a great start...anyone here know how to implement this? | ||
| Jlnance |
Mad Dr. The complete part number is 2006RSC3, which will give you all the specs, not just the size. I've used both SKF and Koyo bearings in the Uly. The Koyos failed at 14k miles, so I don't think the issue is simply the quality of the NTN bearings. Also someone reported earlier in this thread that their left side bearing failed. One would think that belt tension affects primarily the right side, so that is likely not the problem either. Of course there may be multiple problems, which would explain why it is so difficult to find consistencies. | ||
| Jlnance |
Heat from swingarm and belt? Swingarm oil is all the way up front, nowhere near the rear wheel hub. It doesn't get that hot, in terms of what bearings are designed to tolerate. Hi Blake, Yes, I agree that the bearings are not getting hotter than their design temperature. Still the hub does get hot enough that temperature swings may play some sort of role in this. I posted a theory yesterday. I have not had a chance to test it. | ||
| Mad_doctor |
My 08XT is a march 08 build, it still has the orange bearings. My bike just turned a year old a few days ago, and I have 7000 miles on the clock. I ride in snow and rain (about 6 hours just coming from homecoming). the outter races have tiny rust spots, but nothing like ourdee had. the bike only gets wiped off/never pressure washed, and so far (I hope I don't Jinx this), they are O.K. | ||
| Court |
Well I just went "data gathering" and I am unimpressed. My bike is an October 2007 build has has orange seal NTN bearings. I don't see any evidence of bearing distress but why would you use a steel face on a bearing of a motorcycle? Did someone really say "oh, it never occurred to me it would be outside". Mine are clumped with rust and, as I said, there is no evidence of impending bearing distress, it's certainly not a sight I'd pull up to the local hangout and want to show off. I broke out a good old fashioned film (some of you are old enough to remember) camera with a macro lens and took some detailed macro shots on 160NPL portrait film. I'll drop it off for processing tomorrow. I don't know if mine are right, wrong, good or bad . . . but the simply, to look at, they inspire zero confidence. I'm going to keep after this until I am comfortable getting on this bike and heading out for a 1,000 mile day. QUALIFIER: I am a construction worker and have not a friggin' clue as to what I am looking at. Bottom line is don't take my word for anything on this it could be perfectly fine just as it is. | ||
| Jlnance |
Did someone really say "oh, it never occurred to me it would be outside".  I watched my g/f get a pedicure yesterday. When they painted her nails, they finished off with a clear "top coat." Might polish up those steel faces and apply some of that stuff to keep them dry. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I have a random question: are the wheels pre-assembled as they arrive at East Troy? Or do they install the bearings on the line? My reason for asking is, although Court's bike and others were built after the September date (don't know where that came from - speculation?), when were the *wheels* built? I've been on the tour at ET and don't remember seeing a tire changer (at least not in the public eye)...and it would surprise me if Buell didn't spec "pre-assembled" wheels - or "wheel assembly", as it were. | ||
| Cyclone8u |
Hey Court, my '08 is an August '07 build with the orange seals. Now 8700 miles, had some slight rust buildup around the outside edge of the inner race. Took the rear wheel apart after getting back from the Parris Island trip to check things out and found that with the exception of a slight amount of corrosion on the axle - no problems. The bearings still had a nice tight smooth feel to them. The last two days of our trip were done pretty much on the slab. I thought maybe several hours of 75 MPH+ might have done them in, but it was not the case. So I continue to ride on them. Just a random thought here. My Cyclone (21,000 miles) is equipped with NSK sealed bearing (with black seals coincidentally), has anybody tried that brand? Just thinking out loud. | ||
| Court |
I also notice . . . . as I peer inside the hollow hub of my front wheel a large "glob" of what appears to be Aluminum. It **looks** like a puddle from the casting process. Anyone else ever noticed this? I'm not sure if I can polish off the faces of the bearings. I tried to clean them lightly with a brass brush but didn't want to do any damage. I can see I am going to have to learn a thing or two about wheel, belt, bearing removal. | ||
| 2_spuds |
I replaced the stock spacer with a steel one two years ago since the stock spacer Any rust problems? No problem with any rust, I coated it well with antiseize. Someone posted a link awhile back for a Buell board in the UK, and it seems that they are having their share of bearing problems also. One of the comments that was made there was comical... "When you read Erik's interviews he always says how he would love to see the whole world driving Buell badged vehicles, like Honda has achieved. We'd have a world-wide shortage of bearings if that were to happen " http://www.ukbeg.com/forum/ If anyone is collecting data it might pay to contact someone on their board and gather some info. Just checking through their tech and archive forums it looks like they've been having their share of problems. | ||
| Prowler |
My personal questions on this are: 1. Are wheel bearing failures on the short travel bikes happening at anywhere near the same rate as the long travel bikes? 2. Have there been many mid-travel XT-STT-SS bike wheel bearings failures? 3. Low mileage belt failures on short travel vs. long travel bikes? 4. Percentage of bikes with a bearing failure AND water intrusion showing up at the same time. Answers to these questions would help to answer the water intrusion/bearing load failure question for me. | ||
| Jphish |
I know Jerry Debruler traded his 06' Uly in on an 08' model. (don't know the month of build) He just got the rear NTNs replaced (with KBCs) under warranty due to failure. So yes - there are the early 08's with bearing failure. j | ||
| Xbimmer |
I don't see any evidence of bearing distress but why would you use a steel face on a bearing of a motorcycle? Did someone really say "oh, it never occurred to me it would be outside". Mine are clumped with rust and, as I said, there is no evidence of impending bearing distress, it's certainly not a sight I'd pull up to the local hangout and want to show off. Court, the races are steel and that's what you're seeing, surface corrosion, from what I've seen here (mufflers in particular) guys in your neck of the woods have some hellacious road conditions to deal with. My KBC black bearings went from shiny pretty races to tainted within a week of install. I wouldn't worry about it, it's only cosmetic on the outside. I also notice . . . . as I peer inside the hollow hub of my front wheel a large "glob" of what appears to be Aluminum. It **looks** like a puddle from the casting process. Anyone else ever noticed this? Not on mine, but it's a good indicator of Chinese manufacturing. I bitched long ago how my front wheel's hub is cast eccentric, sure it's dynamically true from the axle to the rim but as I spin it the casting around the bearing orbits markedly elliptically. That's Third World stuff and one reason why I suspect wheel assembly as more of the problem than the bearings themselves. Once again I want to believe the KBC's will fix the issue but I also want to know why. I'll post in this thread this week pics of my NTN's after 50K removal. In particular the left rear bearing had real rust on the inside steel and in the bearing recess in the hub, the right side rear was clean and shiny on the inside races. | ||
| Etennuly |
To explain a little more about the grease filled hub, I did leave the inner seals in the new bearings. My new ones are orange replacements, as the black ones were newly available, but on back order at the time my original bearing crapped out. The failed bearing was the left/rotor side. The right side was fine. I haven't experienced this on my Uly hub yet, but having extensive experience on three wheeler hubs of a very similar type, pumping new grease into the hub forces water and contaminates out of the bearings and spaces wherever air and water can pass. This includes the axle to inner race fit-ment. The inner seals seem to not interfere with grease coming into the bearing. When doing the three wheelers, grease would squeeze out after the water and debris, then I would push the outer seals back with a finger as done on a re-grease on the Uly. I would just wipe it clean with a paper towel, not removing a slight grease film from the surfaces to help with water proofing. The next time I grease the Uly hub I will try to remember to take some pictures. I could have last time, but I really hate handling my camera and grease gun in any relative time period. Over lubing a camera can't be good. The Uly had 33,000 when the new bearings were installed. It is now near 39,000. For the grease reservoir, I feel it would have been better served with the inner seals removed, next time for sure. My dad, a machinist's mechanic, used to tell me "A well greased poor quality bearing is going to outlast a high quality bearing with no grease, but a well maintained high quality bearing should last for ever". Using his theory we have two problems with the rear bearings. One is the no maintenance bearing that cannot be cleaned, repacked, or adjusted properly, and the second is no reserve supply of 'oil' to keep it lubed when running at spec temperature. Grease is actually oil at the bearing operating surfaces. It heats up and becomes liquid where it works. These are the problems that I am trying to eradicate with the grease fitting solution. I still cannot adjust it, but I can easily provide fresh grease that will clean it as it comes in play, and there-by providing a reservoir of fresh grease for any times when the grease may over heat and run out. More is there to run in. The aluminum used in our bikes is a great heat sink, the rear wheel is no exception. Don't forget we have a big exhaust can with a tail pipe shooting a lot of heat back there as well as a fan that is literally a heat pump that also shoots at least part of its heat right down the shock at the back tire area(what doesn't go right up your leg). Add that to the friction of the belt, the bearings, rear rotor, and the 200+ degree oil's heat that radiates down the swingarm. It adds up. I don't have a thermo gage gun, but on a 90F day that rear hub could easily run 150F+. Then run it directly into 65F rain water or a 40F creek. Aluminum will transfer quite a fair amount moisture in the form of condensation. Do that say 25 times over the life of a tire(when you would inspect the bearings). My Uly went to bearing failure, nearly six tires, without having the bearings removed to inspect the hub for water intrusion, except for the external signs of the bearing being rusty inside the seal. I can see how the hub would contain several ounces of water with as many as 150 hot hub/cold water dousings. With that situation, a slow water build up, it makes since that the left side bearing would be the most likely to fail based on sitting on the side stand, allowing a water 'soak' on it's seal. The right side failure would make sense also based on the perpetual torque supplied and applied by the belt, wherein a little bit of water would be more catastrophic. Do I have any thoughts on this subject??.....nah.....it's just that I went through this before. I had destroyed a set of new bearings in a weekend of TT/enduro type racing on ATC's. Being not ambitious enough to change them so often, I looked for and found a workable solution. The next set lasted through the next year and were still on the bike when I sold it. It is cheap, easy, functional, and I don't mind sharing. | ||
| Motorfish |
It does make a lot of sense to have the bearings backed up with grease. And pumping fresh grease through the bearing, with the inner seal removed, should hopefully pump out any crap that is in there. Also, as Etennuly stated, any bearing that is greased, is superior. I agree. A dry bearing is toast. A light coating of neverseize can`t hurt either. | ||
| Rays |
Can anyone who has the new KBC's verify that they are C3 tolerance as well? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Here are photos a couple of Badwebbers have posted:   I don't think there's enough info shown to determine details on the bearing like tolerance, but I could be wrong. | ||
| 05mxdiesel |
I've been watching the bearings on my 06 and they are finally shot at 16k. Not totally shot yet, but I noticed the rusty water marks yesterday. Took the wheel off and brake side bearing is slightly rough when spinning it, the other side feels fine. I just called and ordered the new style like above. I had another 1k on my rear starda and was hoping they would last till it needed replaced. Gives me time to repaint my muffler. | ||
| Arkaybee |
Only 10k on my '06, am noticing the inner ring of the rear bearing is rusty, but am not seeing any other staining or evidence of water intrusion. Given I'm changing the tires next week in advance of a trip to CO, you guys have put the fear of bearing failure in me and it and the belt are getting changed, too. Appreciate both the research and the head's up. | ||
| Court |
If you would . . when you pull the bearings . . can you give them a close "once over". It may be interesting, with 10K on them, to send them for an autopsy. | ||
| Arkaybee |
Will do. Suspect what I am seeing is simply the corrosion on the surface of the races, as Xbimmer noted. Am having the work done at a very good local shop and will have him play close attention to existing conditions and save the bearing. Will take photos and post if I think it will add to the body of knowledge. I don't fancy myself a mechanic, but am a contractor specializing in building forensics and repair and am terminally curious. My father was a doctor, so autopsies are of interest to me. Are you suggesting I send the bearing to a place that specializes in analysis? | ||
| Gamdh |
This is what mine looked like when I changed them (about 33,000 miles).  The did not technically fail.. but were very, very notchy. So I replaced them. Note: the Red grease... I did add some a few times prior to this. |
