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Trojan
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 11:27 am: | 
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The rules changed when Neil Hodgson & Bostrom were riding for Ducati USA. Basically they were not allowed to use the parts that made them competitive in WSB against 1000cc IL4's so ended up unable to compete and chasing the Suzukis and Hondas all year.
Ducati is very used to getting its own way in world racing, and to running at the front. It is never very happy when the national rule makers make it difficult for them to compete, so they usually react by packing up and taking their bikes home again. Can't say I blame them really  Why spend a fortune on developing and building racing bikes only to be told that the goalposts have moved and that the bike is no longer eligible?
Ask Erik how that feels |
Eboos
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 11:30 am: |
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"Not sure. Same as Harley-Davidson?"
You mean that twice in a hundred and five years means that they are an unstable company? |
Sd26
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 11:49 am: |
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LOL! Only if it means their end.
Has Ducati's change of ownership meant that they are unstable...
Then there's MV...LOL! |
Amafan
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 11:57 am: |
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Last week Larry Pegram was on Pitt Pass radio and said he might race in the American SuperBike class with a teammate on Ducati 1098R's.Mike Lock president of Ducati North America told him they would make the announcement before Thanksgiving and Pegram would be at the Daytona tire test starting on DEC 5th.I hope this new mess with Kawasaki does not change their plans. If anybody wants to hear the Pegram interview it is on the Pitt Pass radio web sight and it can be replayed. |
Sd26
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 11:59 am: |
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Honestly, I've always just wanted a decent set of rules from the AMA. Ones that were attainable and enforced.
In 1993, Roger actually recognized and understood that HRC was supplying to some, selling to others, and not acknowledging to the rest special parts for Honda CBR600F2's. They seemed to come into a lot of common hands that year. I first heard about them at the end of 1991 as we went to build one for 600 Supersport in 1992. We were connected with someone that was building the then Two Brother's bikes, and they built them with HRC this, HRC that...
Well, honestly, what was totally against the rules, but Honda refused to supply Roger with blueprints to the engine to make reasonable measurements, etc.
Anyway, at Road America, Roger went out and had went to a Honda dealer and bought Honda CBR600F2 black boxes. HRC had a black box, and it was always supposed to be worth 3HP according to some of the guys from a team that I knew that sourced them.
Roger swapped out the boxes on Mike Smith's Honda racing F2 along with others through the field. Back then, because they weren't as out of control as things have been recently, it allowed the field to tighten up a little bit even at a big track like RA.
It was stuff like that which got Roger blackballed from the AMA.
Roger has always "gotten" racing. He's never had a real opportunity to implement his vision. Now, hey, as a racer, I get a "performance index". As it is now, 600 supersport is the same sound from the same bikes with different names. It's pretty boring to me even as a racer.
Do more manufacturers make things exciting? Hell, yeah. Is an 1125 as fast, slower, or faster than a 600. Yes. All of them. There are advantages to a design from a company and disadvantages.
Either way, I feel some calm from the idea that Roger will be able to get this going and allow for some opportunities from other manufacturers. Triumph, Buell, KTM, Aprilia seem to be good additions to previously boring premier show. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 01:44 pm: |
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DMG is gonna have a tough year I think, what with the economy and all. Suzuki is rumored to be pulling out of the series. It is going to be harder to put fannies in the seats than ever and there is likely to be little money about.
In some ways it might be a blessing in disguise. If crowds are down they can blame it on the economy and use the year to get the package right. If the crowds are up then they are heros.
They do have the luxury of a lot of potential upside. I don't think our European friend appreciate just how far down the charts motorcycle roadracing is here in the USA. Bull riding gets better TV coverage then the AMA. MotoGP does better but World superbike is almost invisible here. Overall a lot more folks watch golf than motorcycle roadracing.
What has been done for decades, which has worked in other places aroudn the world has not worked here. Time to try something else; I think the old cliche "you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs" applies here. Lets hope the omelet comes out OK. |
Buellishxx
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 06:34 pm: |
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Take a look at the Parts Canada - Superbike series if you want to see how competitive the 1125R is. Steve Crevier was riding one in the superbike class (up to 185 hp I think), and was placing in the top 10 through out the year an even had a podium finish. Of course coming in top 10 is great, but it can be long way back in the pack.
In the thunder class which was limited to 125 rwhp the 848's were unbeatable! Darren James and Dave Estok gave it a good shot, but the 848'spool up faster and harder (I saw how fast they went by me!)
Here's the way it looked in Calgary this year:
Fastest laps:
Superbike:
1:16.5 - Kawasaki
1:19.6 - 1125R - Crevier
Supersport pro: 1:17.9
Supersport am: 1:21.3
Thunder:
1:19.0 - Ducati 848 - Andrew nelson
1:20.2 - 1125R - Dave Estok
1:26.2 - 1125R - Willy Geczi - Club rider stock bike
Note that the hp numbers for the ducati and the buell were almost identical to their lap times (strange coincidence).
So what is this telling me? That DMG probably has it right putting the 1125 in with the 600's, strange as it may be. It is what it is, the 1125 might be a great bike but it ain't a "Superbike", yet!
http://thunderracing.ca
(Message edited by buellishxx on November 27, 2008)
(Message edited by buellishxx on November 27, 2008) |
Amafan
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 09:26 am: |
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Acording to the latest CycleNews Buell will test in the American Superbike class and in the Daytona Sportbike class next week at Daytona.Check out the top of page 6. http://www.cyclenews.com/testride/latestissue.html |
Elvis
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 10:04 am: |
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Wow!!! That's HUGE, Amafan. Thanks! I had been hoping they might try to make a jump like that (particularly with some of the names being thrown around) to really make a statement, but I thought it was unlikely with their current hardware (does this confirm an 1125RR is in the works?).
I guess it's still not official and they could decide not to compete depending on the test, but things just got VERY interesting for Buell race fans.
(Message edited by elvis on November 28, 2008) |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 11:32 am: |
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Harris expected something more akin to the rules package he and the other OEMs started working on over a year ago when the DMG released the class rules last Thursday.
There's the truth. If Japan Inc cannot carve the rules to suit themselves, they don't want to play. I say "good riddance."
Matt,
Unfortunately US race fans won't be able to see world beating Ducati race bikes (and no other full fat Superbikes either)from 2009 anyway because of DMG's rule changes (not that the previous AMA Superbike rules did Ducati any favours either of course!).
I could care less. The bikes look virtually identical. What exotica may be inside the engine is meaningless to good racing. NASCAR isn't the most successful racing series in the world because of the exotic engines they use.
(Message edited by Blake on November 28, 2008) |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 11:35 am: |
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I do agree that concerning market perception, racing the 1125 against 600's is a poor idea. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 12:36 pm: |
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There is far more that is unknown than is known at this point.
This thread was started on - what now looks like it may be - the false premise that Buell wouldn't be racing Superbike.
They don't have an 850 . . . yet, so if they want to race as broadly as possible (and they have always followed the strategy of building from the ground up rather than just jumping into the top classes) and get some of the smaller dealer teams competing in the AMA, they need to get the 1125R out there.
That may likely lead to an 850 cc in 2010 (and maybe they've already made that promise to Edmundson) . . . or maybe they're even planning and 850 for July to race a partial season but need to have something as a place-holder.
As someone who has been waiting for Buell to get more involved in the top classes for years and as someone who realizes how important it is to build a race program brick by brick, I'm certainly not going to turn my nose up at Buell racing in as many classes as possible.
A few years from now, once Buell has some big race experience under their belt, the idea of racing against highly modified 600 cc bikes with experienced and talented riders may seem "beneath" Buell, but that's certainly not the case now.
I think we, as Buell racing fans, need to see this as a route to future racing . . . not something to brag about if they do well against lower displacement bikes.
Buell riders obviously don't ride Buells to pretend they're riding race-bikes, so let's just enjoy it, have a little fun, and, for the first time ever get a chance to watch Buells racing live on Speed HD.
Let the kids over at Superbikeplanet slap their wangs on the table and fret over which is bigger. We've got better things to do.
Roadracing World is a far better source for racing news anyway. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 06:35 am: |
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They don't have an 850 . . . yet
It would be madness for Buell to develop a new engine at 850cc JUST to compete in the new AMA structure. Nobody else in the world will adopt these new rules (hopefully!), so the huge cost of developing an 850 race motor would only result in a domestic US racing model. By everyone's admission bike racing in the USA is hardly a major spectator sport and gets very little TV exposure. Also Buell sells better outside the US than inside, so where would be the motivation to do this?
If the 1125 version is only competitive with the 600 iL4 bikes, where do you think the 850 would be slotted in to race competitively? Until the rest of the world acepts 850 V Twins in to 600 SUpersport racing there is no financial, commercial or sporting sense for Buell to do it, or am I missing something?
What would make far more sense would be to develop a 'big bore' 1200 in order to race competitively at Superbike level worldwide. If Buell could get close to 210bhp from a race 1200 then they would be in the right ball park.
(Message edited by trojan on November 29, 2008) |
Elvis
| | Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 08:32 am: |
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So, in other words, Ducati doesn't know what they're doing? I don't know what it's like in Great Britain, but the 848's haven't been collecting dust at my local dealer.
Buell has offered 900 cc and 1200 cc versions of their air-cooled engines ever since the XB12's.
Doesn't seem like a stretch to me.
I never said they would do it specifically to slot into a racing class. You're the one who added the big "JUST", not me. It just seems like a logical future product offering to me, and the inclusion of 850 cc twins in the AMA, Thunderbike, etc. just make 850 cc the logical displacement choice.
Keep in mind that when they were developing the 1125R, the 1200 class didn't even exist. Now that it does and now that Ducati offers an 848, I think Buell may well offer a 1200 and 850 in tne coming years.
But for now, they have one high performance engine that happens to have an 1125 cc displacement.
. . . and as for WSBK, a year ago, the idea of Buell getting into WSBK and actually being competitive would have been laughable.
But Crevier did some amazing things on an underpowered 1125R in Canadian Superbike, and now, this bombshell that AMAFan posted is very exciting.
If they can race American Superbike in 2009 - as is suggested by the "Unknown Buell rider" to test in Daytona this week - the things they learn would be invaluable if they ever intend to produce an homologation bike and run WSBK.
Unfortunately, the WSBK homologation limits (isn't it something like 2,000 or 3,000 bikes in 2009?) will still make it very difficult for a company as small as Buell anytime soon.
. . . but if they ever really want to get there, racing AMA Superbike will be a HUGE first step.
(Message edited by elvis on November 29, 2008) |
Trojan
| | Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 09:42 am: |
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. . and as for WSBK, a year ago, the idea of Buell getting into WSBK and actually being competitive would have been laughable.
But Crevier did some amazing things on an underpowered 1125R in Canadian Superbike, and now, this bombshell that AMAFan posted is very exciting.
Canadian Superbike is HP restricted and a long long way from WSBK or even BSB levels of power and allowable technology. If Buell want to be competitive at world level then 210bhp would be the minimum bhp requirement in addition to losing substantial amounts of weight from the bike. Take a look at the new R1, Aprilia V4 or BMW 1000 and you'll se that Buell have a way to go to get into the same bhp and technology zone as the latest WSBK missiles.
So, in other words, Ducati doesn't know what they're doing? I don't know what it's like in Great Britain, but the 848's haven't been collecting dust at my local dealer.
The Ducati 848 was never made to be a race bike (there is no natural class for it anywhere!), so Ducati were able to offer it in a much more street focussed package than the 1098 homologation bikes such as the 1098R. Given the cost savings and the fact that it is actually a better bike for the road, it is little wonder that the 848 is a more popular street bike than the 1098. Note that Ducati have never offered (nor have plans for apparently) an R version of the 848 because they dont expect people to race it
However, the current 848 is a match for the 1125 in most areas including bhp/weight, so why would an 850 Buell be better?
The AMA has come up with their arbitary 850 capacity probably because the 848 exists, but certainly not because it is a popular capacity for any current race bikes. They may as well have chosen 750, 675 or 1600 for all the difference it will make to manufacturers, because nobody is going to develop a new engine just to compete in AMA racing. If they happen to have something that vaguely fits the rules already then maybe they will give it a go (BMW 800 twin bored to 849cc?) but don't hold your breath for anything new.
If Buell want to compete head on against 600 IL4 machines then they should use some of the now available MV technology (MV have a 600 IL4 already designed) and develop a 600 themselves rather than run a sleeved down 1125.
I want to see Buell at the top of world racing just as much as you do. What I don't want to see is Buell with egg on their faces again, which is what happened with the XBRR. |
4cammer
| | Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 10:24 am: |
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"If Buell want to compete head on against 600 IL4 machines then they should use some of the now available MV technology (MV have a 600 IL4 already designed) and develop a 600 themselves rather than run a sleeved down 1125."
Please.....no. Ask Triumph how that went for them.
The 600cc class of bikes and who actually purchase them is not from what I have seen even close to Buell demographics. I highly doubt anyone has purchased a Buell just from the spec-sheet box in a magazine ad, I mean comparison, like many of the repliracer riders do.The traditional 2 year lifespan of the 600cc class would kill Buell. My '07 XB9R is a 5 year old design; with incremental changes of course. |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 10:33 am: |
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The Ducati 848 was never made to be a race bike
Neither was the 1125R.
What I don't want to see is Buell with egg on their faces again, which is what happened with the XBRR.
Was this a factory effort, or was it a dealer-based privateer race bike?
I want to see Buell at the top of world racing just as much as you do.
Don't we all... but I don't think you'll ever see Buell fielding a Factory Race Team- there really is too much at stake. An 1125R streetbike cannot compete with superbikes (including 600s) on the track at the professional level. That's why it will be left up to the privateers to make a go at it. I think they will do well, but like Triumph riders- they'll always be wishing for factory help. |
Sd26
| | Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 11:57 am: |
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Interesting posts.
As for Ducati never building the 848 to be raced, well, that would mean that only "R" models of bikes are meant to be raced?
Ducati does offer a good amount of contingency money for those that want to race 848's, so there certainly is an intention of racing. The 848 is raced in Formula Extreme in the AMA. While many will discount that, the AMA is a racing series in a very large market for a lot of manufacturers.
I don't think the 883 was meant to be raced, but there were classes for that.
An MV engine in a Buell? Well, while that's just as interesting as the idea that some had of the V-Rod engine or even the VR1000 engine in a Buell, I can't feel that it would happen during a regular course of business. An air cooled pushrod engine will most likely be the heart of a Buell motorcycle for the life of the ability of H-D/Buell to keep it within emission limits. Certainly, the Rotax engine is a new departure. I think Buell has certainly found a lot of it's niche in the same way that Ducati found theirs.
Buell factory team? Generally, the Harley-Davidson path for parts and R&D flows through the dealer. I don't think one would generally see a singular team like Yosh for American Suzuki for Buell. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 03:59 pm: |
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I want to see Buell at the top of world racing just as much as you do. What I don't want to see is Buell with egg on their faces again, which is what happened with the XBRR.
Eh, that concern doesn't bother me in the least.
Anyone who wants to race is going to suffer failures along the way. As much as the Buell/Harley haters get a smug satisfaction from pointing to the XBRR, I think, in retrospect, we're better off having the lessons of the XBRR than we would be without it.
Lessons learned from the aerodynamics of the XBRR were applied to the 1125R. The 8 piston caliper was tested on the XBRR and implemented on the 1125R.
What was one of the first comments Jeremy M. made about the XBRR? "Needs a slipper clutch" . . . and when the 1125R showed up, darned if it didn't have a slipper clutch.
Gaping throttle bodies, beefy front forks . . .
When you compare the XBRR and 1125R you will see similarity after similarity. I think the XBRR was a test-bed for the 1125R. It was the first real experience Buell had running a big-output engine in an XB frame.
If the XBRR had never existed, would Crevier have put a 130 HP 1125R on the podium against 180 HP competition the first time out in Canadian Superbike? I'd bet not.
Remember when Crevier won the ASRA Pro-Superbike race at Daytona in October 2007?
http://www.buell.com/en_us/company/news/detail.asp ?news_id=1337
I remember at the time thinking that was a little random. Turns out it wasn't random at all. That was likely a very planned first step in Crevier running 2008 Canadian Superbike.
. . . and Crevier's 2008 Canadian Superbike run was probably a very planned first step toward Buell running AMA Superbike in 2009.
I'm much more interested in long term progress toward a goal of eventually having a real racing program than I am in high profile failures.
I look at Buell and I see slow, methodical progress toward a serious racing program . . . in direct opposition to the "diving head-first into the deep end" approach Harley showed with their VR1000 program.
Might they have some spectacular failures in the coming years? Sure, that's possible, but they've already built enough of a foundation that any failures now will just be bumps along the road. Their race program, while still very much an upstart, is solid enough now that it's not just going to go away if they suffer some DNF's at Daytona. |
Paint_shaker
| | Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 07:29 pm: |
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Not bad for a Motorcyle company that has only been in existence for 25 years!!!!
Go Buell Racing!! |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 09:59 pm: |
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Ducati has 125 people working in their race department alone. I don't know what pays for this, but the facts are that Buell is a tiny company in comparison, and the bikes sell for very low prices. It's pretty easy to figure out why their racing is low profile. And before people howl for H-D to fund it; I think it's very obvious after all these years that H-D is definitely not going to do so. I certainly wish Buell racers the best for the 2009 season, but in no way expect them to compete against the large company factory and factory satellite programs. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 10:00 pm: |
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I think, in retrospect, we're better off having the lessons of the XBRR than we would be without it.
Truth!
And remember also the new oiling system. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 05:17 am: |
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As for Ducati never building the 848 to be raced, well, that would mean that only "R" models of bikes are meant to be raced?
You miss my point. You can race anything you like. The humble SV650 was never designed to be a race bike but is probably the most popular race bike in the world.
My point was this. Ducati build the 848 as a road bike (if people race it then it is up to them). They have a specific policy when it comes to developing racing models, and these are the bikes that get the R designation. These bikes are developed to race in the world championship classes and national variations of the same classes, such as Superbike. When they built the 749 it was eligible for World Supersport so they built a 'race ready' 749R version to cater for customers wishing to race in this class. There is no 848R simply because it doesn't fit into any of the established race classes.
Most Japanese 600's are developed to race, but sold for the road. The new R6 has far less torque and practicality for road use than the 2003 version, but it makes a great race bike. If Buell want to compete against this factory mentality then they will have to follow the same path and either design a 'race ready' bike or offer an R derivative in the same way that Ducati (and now KTM) are doing.
An 1125R streetbike cannot compete with superbikes (including 600s) on the track at the professional level. That's why it will be left up to the privateers to make a go at it. I think they will do well, but like Triumph riders- they'll always be wishing for factory help.
Unfortunately that is going to be a bit of a cop out. There should either be a competitive race bike or none at all. Expecting any privateer to run at the front of a top national race series would be almost impossible.
Ducati wouldn't sell a 1098 F05 (the WSBK spec bike) to a customer unless they proved they had the team structure, finance, winning riders and wherewithall to compete and win at the very pinnacle of the sport. This is why there are so very few of these bikes in existence (around 10 total). The usual Ducati contract agreement for WSBK spec bikes includes all engine work being carried out by the Ducati factory team and they reserve the right to veto riders the don't think suitable.
Ducati have developed a way to compete with the big Japanese factories over the years, and other small factories wishing to compete with Ducati at the very top should study the way they have achieved their success and do everything possible to emulate it. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 08:54 am: |
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I don't know what pays for this, but the facts are that Buell is a tiny company in comparison, and the bikes sell for very low prices.
FWIW, I'd rather have an inexpensive Buell, than an expensive one which subsidized a race program. |
Eboos
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 09:04 am: |
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"I certainly wish Buell racers the best for the 2009 season, but in no way expect them to compete against the large company factory and factory satellite programs."
That is why you failed. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 10:29 am: |
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Frankly, I'd rather have Buell's than Ducati's situation at the moment.
Buell has a tiny race program that is growing every year.
Ducati is the undisputed master and they live and die by their racetrack success . . .
But what's going to happen in the coming years?
Ducati has been a big fish in a little pond for quite a while, but the pond is growing and more fish are showing up every day.
When BMW, KTM and Aprilia all jump into WSBK, can Ducati really expect to maintain their position without spending a LOT more money?
Will any of those players get into Moto-GP? Moto-GP is tough enough even without the threat of future competition.
What happens if/when Ducati is just another name in a field of 7 or 8 big-name racing teams?
Can they really expect to maintain their dominance forever? And even if they can, how costly will it be to do so in 2012, 2015, 2020?
They may be forced to adopt a Buell-type business model before Buell is forced to adopt a Ducati-type business model.
(Message edited by elvis on December 01, 2008) |
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