| Author | Message | ||
     Pioggia_di_parata |
Three years ago, the XB-RR was introduced with much fanfare as the Buell racebike which was finally going to be able to compete with the Japanese inline 4's. There was much chest-thumping and even a few predictions of a sweep of the Daytona 200 podium, and even though the XB-RR looked on paper to be more than a match for the little 600cc Japanese bikes, we all know how that match-up turned out. So now Buell finally enters the modern world of watercooling and 4 valves per cylinder with the 1125R. Buell's ads and various magazine reviews would seem to indicate that this bike can go head-to-head with the best open class sportbikes from around the world, so I kind of expected it to race against... oh, I don't know... maybe open class sportbikes? Like maybe in the actual Superbike class where Ducati races their bike to which the 1125R is supposed to compare? But no. AMA/DMG just announced that Buell's new fully modern literbike will race against the same 600's the XB-RR was designed to race against: http://superbikeplanet.com/2008/Nov/081121fr.htm So, how do you guys feel about that decision? If I owned an 1125 I would feel a little insulted myself. It's like the powers that be are telling Buell "Yeah, we know you no longer have the excuses of aircooling and 2 valves per cylinder to explain why you deserve a huge displacement disparity, but we're just going to assume you need a huge advantage anyway because we don't believe you can be competitive on a level playing field." So what's the deal? Can a fully modern ~1100cc watercooled 4-valve Buell twin really not compete with an ~1100cc watercooled 4-valve Ducati twin? How can that be? If the 1125R doesn't thoroughly beat the snot out of the Ducati 848 and the little Japanese 600's that it will be racing against this year, then what? And if it does, what does that prove? PdP | ||
| Skinstains |
Give me pushrods or give me death ! | ||
| Aeholton |
Interesting slant on the article. I don't think there are too many 105 hp 600 cc race bikes running in the AMA. My guess would be closer to 150 hp. Also, those are very optimistic Buell #'s. That being said, they should put some sort of hp limit on the class and that would make for a more even playing field. However, we already know that Honda and Suzuki don't like that idea. | ||
| Sd26 |
Yeah, 105HP on a Dynojet dyno would be equal to my GSXR600 race bike...from 2001. 146HP out of the 1125? Anyone got data to back that up? That would be a lot more than my GSXR750 race bike from earlier this year. But that's the way Dean Adams does his mindless cheerleading though. Now, can a 1100cc water cooled 4-valve Buell compete against a 110cc water cooled 4-valve Ducati? Sure, but I get to pick the bikes.  Bikes are built for pretty vast different purposes. Making a general comparison of one thing to another isn't going to come up with a reasonable playing field. I raced an SV1000S. It was a 1000cc liquid cooled 4-valve twin, but it was not generated to have the price tag of a flagship Ducati, nor would it have the performance. To simply put a 999 and an SV1000 in the same boat is similar to putting a Mustang GT in the same boat as a Ford Econoline van...they both have a 4600cc V8, right? I don't have an 1125, but if I did, I would still recognize what I had. But maybe I've been around bikes for a long time. It fits in the new AMA program quite well though. Should be a good fight. | ||
| Eboos |
The 1125R would be more appropriate in a heavyweight class or a modified class similar to FX. In a supersport type class, the 1125R better destroy the middleweight bikes. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
I am all in favor of just letting them to go racing in the class the promoter or sanctioning body says they belong in. If racing is about selling bikes then head to head competition that can be based on several different criteria has to be good. The original numbers for the FX Class were based on the engine max VE numbers. In that class it showed that a 600 cc four valve engine turning 15K was flowing the same amount of air as the XBRR was at 8K | ||
| Amafan |
Buells own web sight claims the 1125R has 146 HP thats where Dean Adams got his figure but the 105 HP number for 2008 CBR 600RR seems low. | ||
| Aeholton |
Buells own web sight claims the 1125R has 146 HP Like I said, optimistic. | ||
| Sd26 |
Probably crank HP. Weight is 375#. Over RWHP by 10 or 15+%. Who's got a real number? Honda claimed 118HP on the 2007 CBR600RR with 341#. It's easy to build a Kawasaki 600 with some off the shelf available kit parts and produce 130 rear wheel HP. 150HP? Maybe if you're Honda and have access to a lot of parts and extra motors. | ||
| Bud |
Like I said, optimistic. nope, just a good fuel map where aiming for 180 rwhp ( with engine tuning ) 105 hp for a cbr 600rr is to low a Ten Kate build 2005 model pushed already 120 rwhp out | ||
| Amafan |
The Daytona SportBike class rules are simmlar to the old SuperSport rules not the FX rules you are not allowed to do much to the motor but you can change the exhaust. | ||
| 46champ |
Dayton Superbike as it was originally conceived had this same batch of bikes in it except the GSXR 750 now seems to have disappeared. The big difference their are no horsepower limits because the big four (actually in retrospect three, Yamaha never seems to bitch) had a fit. They saw the list, they should know what will happen with no horsepower limits. I suppose DMG was expected to tell Buell BMW Aprilla and who knows who else to just not bother to show up. This is their reward hope they like it. Now the green team is complaining about fuel tank capacity they don't need and 16.5 inch tires DMG said they were going to hold costs down. How much more does a 16.5 inch tire cost? any one know? Honda and Suzuki I think they just want to complain. After all if someone can't compete they can't win. The 1125 is eligible to compete in both superbike classes. Where did this rumor start that Jeremy McWilliams and Gary McCoy are going to ride Buells....Cool Last but not least "massive twins competing against 600's". Doesn't that just smack of YELLOW journalism. (Message edited by 46champ on November 23, 2008) | ||
| Eboos |
"How much more does a 16.5 inch tire cost?" I don't know about Dunlops, but here are Pirelli's 2008 prices for a rear tire: Diablo Superbike - 190/65R420 - SC1 190/65R420 TL NHS Diablo Superbike SC1 Price: $245.00 Diablo Superbike - 190/55R17 - SC1 190/55R17 TL NHS Diablo Superbike SC1 (K280) Price: $240.00 $5.00 difference between a 17" and a 16.5" tire in the same width. (Message edited by eboos on November 23, 2008) | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
I think the point is... is the 16.5" standard on the stock bike? If not, DMG doesn't want it racing. I feel, along with a few others, that keeping the race bikes as close to the ones available in the showroom is the best way to increase interest in racing. When I want to see bikes made of "unobtainium" on the track- I watch MotoGP. | ||
| Imonabuss |
In the real world, as we have all seen over and over this year, privateers on 1125's beat 1098's, RC-8's etc., and it ain't even close with a 600. Class rules are what they are, and can be distorted as much as any malicious poster wants. DMG has been working to try to make privateers more competitive and to make the class less costly. The race reason not to have 16.5's in multiple rim widths is the wheel and tire bill, which is insanely high, and wildly expensive for the tire companies. It's not the price of one tire, it's that when all types of tires and wheels are available, you have to have them all, and have them fitted with slicks, intermediates and wets. Many, many wheel sets per bike. And 16.5 wheels will never be approved by the Tire and Rim Association as a street size, because they are too close to the 16's and 17's and you could actually mount the wrong size and kill someone. So what point is there in having them? Also, I find it pathetic that a huge company full of technical prowess like Kawasaki won't race without radically modified fuel tanks (to get mass centralization), and the 16.5 inch wheels that aren't on the bike stock. I guess they don't have a very good production bike, do they? Anyone who decides to judge the 1125 by how it does in AMA with a race effort run with a private Buell team, with development support from all three or four Buell factory guys who work on race support, is an imbecile. Or is a prejudiced a**hole in the pocket of the import companies, who wants to knock a small American company who are busting their butts. I just checked, and Honda has over 150,000 employees. It's pretty cool that little Buell has produced a bike that is winning and podiuming races all over the world it's first year out, against products from huge well-funded companies. | ||
| Trojan |
Also, I find it pathetic that a huge company full of technical prowess like Kawasaki won't race without radically modified fuel tanks (to get mass centralization), and the 16.5 inch wheels that aren't on the bike stock. I guess they don't have a very good production bike, do they? Wrong, Kawasaki race worldwide with their bikes at the highest level, so develop their race bikes to suit the most popular series and rules such as WSB & WSS. The vast majority of national championships run similar rules to these formulae, and 16.5 inch wheels are now so common that they are used even in club racing throughout the world. Now DMG/AMA completely change their rules to be out of step with the rest of the world, but expect the major manufacturers to develop new race bikes using different wheels, tanks etc specifically for AMA racing and different to the rest of the world. Is it any wonder that the big 4 manufacturers are not too impressed with DMG's unilateral rule changes? However, If Kawasaki/Honda/Yamaha have to race with stock tanks and wheels I am sure they will ( as they already do in Superstock racing of course), and will remain more than competitive. They have a long and impressive record in winning races that you seem to forget with your disdainful remarks. What has the number of employees got to do with racing success? How many employees did Britten have? In fact how many employees do KTM and Ducati have at their factories? How many employees do Triumph have? Like I have said before, classing the 1125 in with the 600 racers is a poison chalice. If Buell wins then everyone will say 'of course they win, they have double the engine capacity', but if they lose it will be 'Can't even beat a 600 with twice with capacity, must be crap!'. Anyone who decides to judge the 1125 by how it does in AMA with a race effort run with a private Buell team, with development support from all three or four Buell factory guys who work on race support, is an imbecile. Spectators won't decide who the winner is by the size of their budgets or because they only have a few employees at the race shop. They will see the bikes that cross the line first as the winner. That does not make them imbeciles, and making excuses that 'your team was bigger than my team so it isn't fair' won't wash with the general public. It is about time that Buell stopped using the 'privateer' team excuse and either fielded a full on factory team (or at least factory supported/funded) at the highest level or just left it to the privateers at club level. 'Privateer' teams are unlikely to beat full on factory backed teams in AMA racing (or any other national/international championship), regardless of the bike they have. The costs of racing and developing the bikes are just too high and Buell should have realised this after the XBRR debacle. I am sure we would all love to see a fully funded, properly organised Buell factory race team running at the front of the pack in AMA and other high profile series, but it will be a disaster if it is left to underfunded but enthusiastic privateers to do the factory's work for them again. This is certainly not meant as an insult to the privateer guys and dealer teams who race Buells every weekend, but just to say that to race at the very top level requires full factory involvement and funding. Anything less when competing against full factory Japanese teams is racing with one arm tied behind your back before you even start. | ||
| Eboos |
"Anyone who decides to judge the 1125 by how it does in AMA with a race effort run with a private Buell team, with development support from all three or four Buell factory guys who work on race support, is an imbecile. Or is a prejudiced a**hole in the pocket of the import companies, who wants to knock a small American company who are busting their butts." That would be the outlook of many of us here, but the average customer reading Sport Rider magazine will read their spin on events (their spin often isn't so good). I do not need to be sold on the 1125R, I have been from day one. I don't care about the tire thing or the wheels. It would be much better for me to stock up on $330 wheels then $1000 ones. | ||
| Trojan |
I don't care about the tire thing or the wheels. It would be much better for me to stock up on $330 wheels then $1000 ones. Contrary to what was said earlier, 16.5" racing tyes are no more expensive than 17" tyres. They are probably availbale in more compounds but most people would usually stock to soft,medium or hard plus a set of wets. Intermediate tyres are no longer used by most organisations or racers simply because modern 'moulded' wet weather tyres are so good and can run in most conditions from damp to full wet. Teams could 'get by' with a minimum of two sest of wheels per bike, which is exactly the same as with 17" wheels/tyres. Do the new regs state that teams must use OE equpmient 17" wheels? if not, then people will buy lighter wheels to replace the heavy stock OE items and the expense will be exactly the same for teams buying aftermarket 16.5" or 17" wheels/tyres, so there is no saving whatsoever. | ||
| Sd26 |
Well, the tire thing is easy. Here's the deal. Race tracks are built. I'd love to say that they honestly have a real concern for motorcycle racers, but it is a race track. Bikes get faster. The smaller slick technology of the 16.5, and Michelin also has 16's, allows for more side grip. That means more corner speed. Fall down, you have more energy to carry you further into that wall, barrier, drop off, etc. that isn't going to be changed within the confines of the reasonable opportunities or wants of a race track's expense. The 17" wheel it a good, common set up. There's no need for a 16.5 street wheel, so until something actually changes, it's a reasonable opportunity. Additionally, Daytona Superbike is THE premiere class for the AMA now. Again, back to the issue I cited above. The "600 base" power can be reined in reasonably. | ||
| Eboos |
The wheels have to be the same weight as OEM spec wheels. | ||
| Court |
>>>What has the number of employees got to do with racing success? That's fairly easy. Larger companies, Honda for instance, are much better positioned to fund a full on race effort. Honda spends more on television advertising in a week than Buell's annual revenues. It's not a "bad thing", it's just simple math that a firm like Honda or Kawasaki or BMW can spend such a small fraction. For the sake of those present, perhaps unfamiliar with the scope, let's use Honda's very own facts from their 2006 audited financial statements. Honda produced 10,271,000 motorcycles and used a scant 0.6% of their motorcycle revenues for R&D. This is where is gets good, let me quantify and point out that "scant", when dealing with this order of magnitude is $869,018,300.00, that's right just shy of ONE BILLION DOLLARS. Let's say that the race guys at Honda have little or no clout and as a result only get 10% of the R&D budget (in fact it's likely closer to 40%) leaving them with only $87,000,000 a year (that's 7,250,000 per race for a 12 race season . . lots of scantily clad gals and transporters) Let's take the amount that Honda spends on R&R, per motorcycle manufactured ( $869,018,300.00 / 10,271,000 motorcycles = $84.61 R&D $ / Unit Made) and apply that number to Buell. Number of Buells built = 10,000 x $84.61 = $846,089.28 per year x 10% allocated to race budget = $84,608.93 / 12 races per year = $7,050.74 per race . . . . Houston, we got a problem. Bottom line is that there is a HUGE disparity in the efforts the companies can afford to fund. Size does matter. QUOTES DIRECTLY FROM HONDA'S 2006 ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENTS:
P.S. - I confess to laughing when I saw that production figure . . . can you imagine 41,084 bikes per day rolling out of East Troy? Link added: I'm sure you'll want to check my math . . . it's early! http://world.honda.com/investors/annualreport/2006/14.html (Message edited by court on November 24, 2008) | ||
| Trojan |
Daytona Superbike is THE premiere class for the AMA now. But restricted in cc, tyres and wheels and a host of other restrictions  Not much of a premier class really. The wheels have to be the same weight as OEM spec wheels. Then there would be little point in changing to aftermarket forged or magnesium wheels at all, so the 16.5" tyre argument would never apply anyway. There has been very little development of 17" tyres for a number of years now, with only Dunlop continuing to develop them. Every other manufacturer only has the same 17" race tyres as they did 4 or 5 years ago, as they all focussed their attention on making 16.5" tyres that people wanted. In fact modern 17" road tyres are probably better these days than 'pukka' race tyres in 17" size. As for corner speed, there is a lot more to it than just the smaller rim size giving better side grip. Reverting to 17" tyres alone won't lower corner speeds enough to make any real difference. If a rider crashes mid corner he will still hit the wall if it is too close to the track in the first place. organisers will often use 'bike safety' as an excuse to slow bikes rather than spend money on track improvements. | ||
| Eboos |
"Then there would be little point in changing to aftermarket forged or magnesium wheels at all, so the 16.5" tyre argument would never apply anyway." Exactly. That and the gas tank issue is the problem that Kawasaki has. Maybe they should spec lighter OEM wheels on there bikes. Maybe they should lower their center of gravity on their production bikes. The series is designed to increase partisipation and level the playing field while reducing costs. In theroy, a professional club racer like Jeff and Eric Wood should be able to compete on a level field and not just get beaten by someone's bike. | ||
| Sd26 |
Like I have said before, classing the 1125 in with the 600 racers is a poison chalice. If Buell wins then everyone will say 'of course they win, they have double the engine capacity', but if they lose it will be 'Can't even beat a 600 with twice with capacity, must be crap!'. Well, stuff like that has worked for Ducati for many years with no problems. They have even ramped up production and sold more bikes and more models. | ||
| Trojan |
Well, stuff like that has worked for Ducati for many years with no problems. They have even ramped up production and sold more bikes and more models. Not quite the same though is it? Ducati raced their 1000cc twins against full factory IL4 750 machines and then 1000cc IL4's at world level. It is only recently that they have allowed 1200cc twins to compete against the 100cc 4 cylinder bikes (and only then with certain restrictions placed upon them). Ducati have never raced a full on Superbike against 600cc opposition (although the 'old' 748 was eligible for Supersport competition of course). If the analagy was to hold any water then the 1125R would have to be racing against litre Jap bikes and not 600's. Ducati sell road bikes by winning high profile world level road races such as WSB, MotoGP and BSB, watched by millions. The bikes they sell on the back of their success are mostly Monsters and other 'low tech' models rather than superbikes, but winning (not just racing) gets the brand noticed. KTM, Aprilia and now BMW have not been slow to realise this and apply a similar closely related race and road R&D marketing structure. They realise that selling 'sports' road bikes is so closely related to racing success that they would not let the success or failure of their race operation be jepordised by having too few race engineers or running 'privateer' teams. If Buell are to be compared to Ducati then they need to start winning regularly in top level racing first  | ||
| Sd26 |
You are right. It isn't the same. A Buell 1125 is a great bike, but it is certainly not built in the mold or intent of a 999 or a 1098, let alone a 1098R. A GSXR1000 is a no holds barred bike. Similarly, a 1098 is too. 600's made by Japanese manufacturers are also very intense bikes. A Suzuki SV1000 was a good bike too, but it is not built with the intensity and intent to be a 600 beater, let alone even keep a 999 in sight. Whether anyone likes the new AMA rules or not is not really going to affect the direction that the AMA is taking. This has been placed in motion certainly earlier than the first time that I was made known of DMG's intent in August of 2007. | ||
| Slaughter |
OK now - HOW MANY TIMES in our lifetimes has Ducati been bought and sold? | ||
| Sd26 |
Not sure. Same as Harley-Davidson? | ||
| Trojan |
Does it matter? Ducati suffered from some 'dubious' build quality and products back in the late 70's (as did H-D) but have picked up their game ever since. The financial musical chairs that have gone on have been more to do with board room politics and Italian poilitics in general than with bad products in recent years, but regardless of who actually owned the factory deeds the race bikes never stopped winning Unfortunately US race fans won't be able to see world beating Ducati race bikes (and no other full fat Superbikes either)from 2009 anyway because of DMG's rule changes (not that the previous AMA Superbike rules did Ducati any favours either of course!). | ||
| Sd26 |
not that the previous AMA Superbike rules did Ducati any favours either of course! Seemed like they were fine for Corser and Polen. Plenty of opportunities for Ducati over the years. From Nielson to Quarterley, from Bostrom to Higbee. |
