| Author | Message | ||
     Brion |
Does anyone have any information on the best way to port and polish the XB9 heads and perform other mods to them. I'll be damed if I am gona pay $1,100 bucks to Nallin to do this. All of the parts can't add up to more than $200.00. I'd rather do it myself if I knew any tricks to getting the contours just right. Alternatively, does anyone know another firm that does a similar, or better job for a reasonable price. Brion | ||
| Buckinfubba |
brion Not to be a ass here but what you are paying for "IS" those lil tricks to getting it right. labor and experience and know how is whats included in the price. the xb heads flow rather well to begin with. to make them that much better takes some work. | ||
| Smadd |
Isn't the $1100 for two brand new heads (Stage 1)? I think the cost of machining *your* heads is about half that. That's my interpretation. Others in the know? BTW... I had my headwork done and I saw a little of what was involved. I'd never attempt it. The only other shop I'm familiar with is Cycle-Rama. They might list a price on their website, as does Nallin. I know both are reputable shops. Many readers here have used both, and I've never heard of any "ripoffs" or complaints about either. edited by smadd on November 25, 2003 | ||
| Glitch |
I'd rather do it myself if I knew any tricks to getting the contours just right. Ya gets whacha pay for... | ||
| Sarodude |
The reasons to do that kinda work yourself (should) have little / nothing to do with saving money and more to do with the satisfaction of seeing what YOU were able to pull off. IMNSHO. -Saro | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Brian, The Nallin site lists $550 for a Stage one job on your heads,$1050 if they provide the heads. A stage 2 job shows $850 on your heads, around $1420 if heads are needed. Having seen first hand what is involved I'd not even attempt it. For a stage one, you would be hard pressed to get the proper tools to do the job for that amount. I'm betting the same goes for Cycle-Rama It is not difficult to mess things up and wind up with worse than you started. | ||
| Josh_ |
>if I knew any tricks to getting the contours just right ...then you'd run a head business of your own... Josh 99 S3T Stg1 Nallin heads, 95 RWHP | ||
| Kevyn |
I needed a chuckle for the day! Thanks head work is voodoo magic, black art, industrial science and metallurgy at its best! I've personally seen a box of botched heads...thousands of dollars turned to scrap by amateurs. One of the most important lessons I've learned here is to ask lots of questions and listen carefully...you have at your fingertips, information gleaned from thousands of hours of R&D proven with record winning runs on asphalt and salt. Buell fanatics, with mechanical and electrical engineering degrees, willing to share their knowledge freely and openly when you ask... ...do ya wanna pay and play or play and pay??? | ||
| Oconnor |
One thing I learned from the car racing side of it is, what works for one type of motor (e.g. honda) wont be that good for another (e.g.yamaha) or any other combination you would like to make. Also what goes perfect on a flow bench does not always go well once built on the street. That is why extrude-hone is worth every penny, The results tend to be better than what a flow bench can predict. But anyways my point is you want to spend money on the guy who has done a bunch of the type of heads that you are using and has also some contact with the finished results. For example the best head guy in the country works out of Rebello racing in a small town called Pacheco. But I would never send my buell heads to him. He's just has no experiencee with that type of motor. And this guy has done two engines ( for cars) for me already and worth every penny. Save up and spend the cash... | ||
| Fullpower |
hey Brion just start hoggin'. these guys,Branch, Nallin,zippers, they all started with the first port. ya gotta start somewhere, and it might as well be on your own toys. so grab a die grinder, and have some fun. report back to us how it goes. a new set of stock heads are cheap if you screw up, no worries. remeber to wear eye protection. be safe, dean | ||
| M1combat |
I kind of agree with Dean on this one. Just remember that you'll probably toast your first set (at least) and that having Nallin-Racing or Cycle-Rama will most likely be cheaper and better in the long run. I'm imagining that you'll have to do MANY MANY heads in order to be on par with their experience. I guess it all comes down to whether YOU want to port/polish your heads, or if YOU want performance. I don't think you'll get both on the first set. Also, keep in mind that there's certainly a difference between porting and polishing. Maybe just deburr the ports and polish them, make sure the ports are matched properly to your headers and intake manifolds (Air doesn't like to flow around sharp corners). On a Harley head I don't think I would remove anything other than burrs from the valve guide stem things because the weakest link in the system is valve train flex. My first step would be about 4-6 months of research into EXACTLY how to port harley heads though. Looks like you've started that. Good luck. edited by m1combat on November 25, 2003 | ||
| Bigdaddy |
"Anyone can swing the hammer, but it takes skills, knowledge, and ability to hit the right spot." Author Unknown I wish I would've listened to those words on some of my early shade-tree jobs -- oh boy oh boy it would surely supplement my sorry ass 401K. Greg | ||
| Hootowl |
Nallin and CR also flow each head to within some small percent of each other. Can't do that at home in the garage. Not without spending more on tools and equipment than it would cost to just have them done. $.02 | ||
| M1combat |
Well Hootowl, If I was the one wanting performance... I would send my stuff to Nallin. However, Brion doesn't seem to want to, and it's quite possible to DIY head work. I really think it'll take 3-4 sets and I really like the quote by bigdaddy. I have a 351 Cleveland engine at home that I took apart completely to find that I had starved the rear main bearing (A well known problem with early 70's Clevelands that see 8K RPM's in stock form). I could have just replaced the bearings for $100. Lived and learned. Granted, I'm not in ANY hurry to put more miles on my 72 Mach so it sits. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
I didn't want to adtvertise ...but what the hell..... We here at tilley's do that work also. Brian Tilley hd/buell buckinfubba@hotmail.com | ||
| Brion |
Okey dokey for all the guys that jumped my case about wanting to do the heads myself here is the scoop. You are right I would be paying for experience by going to Nallins. That is why I asked if anyone had any advice. I am not extremely impressed with any of the dyno results posted on the site. None that I have seen reflect the results of the heads separate from all of the other work so I can not determine what is that gain by itself. I am at trade an inside machinist evloved to a mechanical engineer. I have fabricated from scratch components way more complex and expensive than these heads. I have also performed porting, polishing and bead-blasting ports on many heads of my own for autos and motorcycles in the past, but as someone stated what works well for one engine is not always best on the other with the exception of matching port alignment and configuration. The price I was quoted by Nallins was $1,100.00 bucks for stage III with my heads sent in. I am just reluctant to pay that much for working two heads and four valves. I have the availability of a Bridgeport milling machine, machine head lathe, die grinders, etc. I am fully capable of doing the work myself I just thought someone out there could give me some pointers. I will dyno my bike before and after and we can all have a laugh. Maybe it will be on me and maybe it won't. I do appreciate all the input, but wish someone could help me out with some specs, ya know the voodoo and black majic spells. Brion | ||
| Gearloose |
Any of you head shop guy's.Nallin,Cycle Rama or Bubba,ever do the extrude route just to really clean em up? I had them do a set of 460 heads and they looked great. Just curious. In the long run,if I decide to pull the heads,I will just send the motor out for a 88 kit,and have the heads worked on then..But that will be after warranty.By then maybe the "in the know guy's" will have the throttle bodies figured out for a 88" steeeeeeroker!!!! | ||
| Brion |
Josh, Maybe I will run a head business one day if I can get 11 bills for reworking four ports and four valves. By the way my 2000 S3T dynos @ 98 RWHP and the heads have never been off it. I have the factory race kit, force intake and custom mapped PCIII. Would you like a copy of my mapping? Brion | ||
| Kcbill |
Brion there is a lot more to this than you have stated. If you port an xb head the same way a Thunderstorm head you will ruin the head. It may seem pricey but you have a tax paying business, building rent, business insurance, benefits, and all the rest that goes into running a business. That all reflects the cost of doing business. You are getting prices from a company that has and continues to do R&D. Not like some other company's doing old school tech. They are state of the art. If some one on here were to give you advice they would and should have enough experience to do so but I don't think it could be explained with out pictures or a video. And you need a flow bench to get it right also. I believe Nallins heads are flowed +or- 1%. Now if you go stage III they may get closer. If you want right on I don't doubt Nallin or Cycle Rama could do it. It takes more time. There is more going on than maybe you have fully considered. Squish has to be right, flow directed threw and around valves can b different depending on the head design. Good luck. Pay it and be done. You will be happier. | ||
| Blake |
In my opinion a Stage-III job is not worth the investment unless you are going all out with the rest of the top end and cams and exhaust. Stage one gives you the biggest bang for the buck. If you want to get an idea of what your money is buying you, give the shop a call and talk to them. At $50/hr you can burn up $1000 in a hurry, not to mention the parts. Whether from Cycle-Rama, Nallin Racing, or the folks at Tilley's, I guarantee you that the headwork is excellent and worth every dollar. It sure would be fun to tinker on them yourself though too. Gearloose, What are you meaning by "extrude route"? | ||
| Brion |
Guys, Thanks for all of your input. Arron, I totally understand your point of view, but it would be nice to know what just the heads would do alone on a stock engine. Increasing flow and making it more efficient will improve the performance on any engine and I would like to know just what I can expect from the heads alone since that is what I am paying for all the other stuff is usefull information also to help me make decisions with. Blake, yes I know what it takes to run a business I ran a machine shop in New Orleans for 7 Years. I am not in disagreement with anyone on any particular aspect. If I were so smart on the subject I would not have asked for help in this area. If it were not for my machinist background I would not question that a shop could do this for a more ecconomical price especially if they do them all the time. Hell they should be able to do them in their sleep by now. One of the shops in my area who works almost exclusively on jap bikes has a flow bench that I am sure he would put my heads on for a fee. I just find it hard to swallow 11 bills for two heads. And if people just keep on thinking that these prices are the norm and that no one else besides Nallins can do this good of a job we will continue to pay whatever they can get away with. | ||
| Apex1 |
Blake, I think he meant "extrude hone". It's process by which a proprietary compound, under pressure, is passed accross & through the surface area of your part, therefore deburring and smoothing it at the same time. Aaron, are the Nallin stage 3 XB heads being done on the CNC machine yet? Just curious. | ||
| Glitch |
Brion: If you feel put off by some of the coments here, it's beacuse you failed to peruse the board. This forum is top notch, where else can you find people in the know on any other board? If you don't know it just shows how little research you've done. Got to the KV and just read. I must've read a half hour to an hour a night for at least a week just to get the feel of this board before I even signed up. If you would, after you read everything you can stand about the subject of heads in the KV, come back and read your original post. If you do this you'll see just how pompas your post sounded to the people here. I'm a new guy here, and when I first posted I was met with open arms. This is a true community, and people here are here to help, and hang out with like minded people. I'd even bet you that the same question worded differently, with true wondering as to why something costs what it does would get better results. Reading a board is kinda like watching a black and white TV, all of the picture is there, but you still don't get the full effect. I hope I'm making sense here. Welcome to the board, and if I sounded put off in earlier post it's because I thought you were a troll. | ||
| Brion |
Glitch, I have been a member at Bad Weather Bikers for about 2 Years. I am new to the XB board because I have had my XB for only a year and have just begun doing mods to it. I have had my S3 since 2000. I am sorry if you guys took me as being offensive, but I am also sorry that others do not feel the same as I about the topic. It is not that Nallins does inferior work, everything that I have read with exception to their headers has been good. It is a price issue with me and I will either do my heads myself and post the results here, or I will send them somewhere else. I came here for help not to offend anyone, is everyone here so loyal to Nallin Racing? Or should we be looking for and posting options here so that Nallin will have more competition and therefore have to be more reasonable with their prices. The last thing I wanted to do was piss people off here. I have some good info to share myself. After driving my S3 for two years then getting an XB9R do you think I was happy with the performance. I have been on the phone with Buell customer service so many times that I have to lie about my name for them to put me through. I bitched about the race ECU disappointment along with them not advising me of the faulty kickstand prior to my bike falling over and causing damage. I come in peace and appologize to any that took me wrong especially if you did not see my name on your message board before. I have been a member for quite some time. I do almost all of my mechanic work myself not because I can't afford to have someone else do it just because I like to and feel for the most part that I can do an equal, or better job. Brion | ||
| Tedk |
Brion, What do you want to get out of the heads? If you are looking for as much HP as you can get w/stage III you need to upgrade pipe & intake. If you want a simple stage I, I say try it yourself as long as you realize you probably will loose hp. I agree the headwork is expensive, otherwise I'd be in for a stage I. Maybe you could give Nallin a few bucks in exchange for some knowledge. I'd love to learn more about what goes into port/polish those suckers. Goodluck and keep us posted. | ||
| Fssnoc2501 |
Brion, What is proven experience worth, LSR records racing titles, satisfied customers. Although, I'm a huge fan of Nallin Racing, they aren't the only game in town. It's alright to shop around, the truth be known I did and came back to Nallin. A certain amount of HP is cheap usually envolved in a pipe and carb work, but to get real HP gains you have to pay a price. Look when prepping my LSR bike we started to get into the $100+ per HP category. This is nothing new in the world of high performance. Ask any race team or hobbiest out there it costs money to go fast. The restricting factor is how much do you want to spend. There are others out there other than Nallin, such as Wes at CycleRama, Axtells, and Zippers. Through personal experience Nallin WILL STAND behind their work. They have done nothing but treat me fairly and with the utmost in professionallism. The other companies will probably do the same (for a simular price), but I have no personal experience with them. Finally, it is unreasonable to expect great gains from head work alone. ANY engine man worth his salt will tell you that it's not any one component that does the trick. IT's the union of all of the linked components that makes the motor work. This is universal knowledge from all types of motorsports, not just the Buell community. Ray edited by fssnoc2501 on November 25, 2003 | ||
| Brion |
Ted, I plan on putting the XB12 pipes and bore the intake to probably 47mm. I am going to mod the race kit muffler to accept the new pipes. I was going to stay with the stock cylinders and pistons to see how they would perform and if disappointed I would use the 1050 kit. I fully believe that the bike has lots of performance left on the table that will come into play with some minor tweaking and improved intake and exhaust efficiency. Brion | ||
| Henrik |
In any business price is determined by expertise, materials, write-off of machinery - tools, overhead, salaries, supply/demand etc. etc. While I'd love to own a Masarati (sp?) I'm not going to question the price just because I don't want to pay it  All the engine shops on the board have many times over proved to make good power reliably (meaning that they get good results every time - not that you can't blow the motor  ). Even if I'd rather pay less I understand why thing cost what they do. Henrik | ||
| Brion |
Easyflier and Fssnoc2501 thanks for the info this is the stuff I am looking for. Arron, I guess you are testing my knowlege. Well here is your answer. Porting will increase the flow capabilities, engine rpm, compression, valve diameter, lift and duration and other factors will dictate what the flow will be, including limitations on both ends,i.e. the flow inducing components on one end and the flow limiting components on the other. With your question about the pipe, that is a little more tricky in the one inch section of the pipe the drag would be less. Theoretically, if in the middle the pressure should drop slightly, however it will make a difference if there is an abrubt shoulder at the joint, or if they are tapered due to turbulance incurred which may defeat the gains caused by the increased diameter. With this said if the pipe were added on the discharge end it would help because it would be the same as using a shorter pipe which would have less total drag. It it were on the inlet end and were tapered in properly it would probably make no difference. Do you agree with this hypothesis, or would you like me to run it on a program at work and send you the results. Brion | ||
| Jim_witt |
Brion, I think you should give it a shot yourself. I think it would be an interesting adventure if you have the time and necessary tools. You might want to check this site out too. Sort'a laid out goofy but some interesting reading there if you look for it. Cheers, -JW:> |
