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Josh_
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 11:45 am: | 
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>They're the ones who will be buying bikes for the next 20-30 years
The older riders, who have more money, tend to buy touring and sport touring machines. those young punks today buying the XBs will likewise be looking else where in 10-20years if Buell continues to only make GP-stature bikes for the street.
>I know that this view will not be appreciated here,
I doubt it. Kind of hard to view it differently, I mean Buell quit making a comfortable machine and now only make little rockets - race bikes for the street. Just like they did when they started. |
Kevyn
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 02:24 pm: |
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Ducati is branching out nicely. A very limited edition Multistrada S 1000DS is available this year...98 RWHP, full Ohlins suspension and the newly reshaped fairing.
Motorcycle Rider just reviewed the ST3 and the ST4S on an 8000 mile road trip with no maintenance issues at all. They were 'not kind' to the bikes while riding... |
Josh_
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 02:28 pm: |
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The ST3/ST4S would have been my next choice. The multitude of Yamaha dealers (since I go through dealers like Kleenex) and the price (vs ST4s) had more to do with the decision than anything else.
8000mile - time for a valve check!  |
V2win
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 02:40 pm: |
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"There's an up-and-coming generation of riders with cash to spend that wouldn't consider a Buell until the XB series came out. They're the ones who will be buying bikes for the next 20-30 years and Buell has to hit that market."
There's an existing generation or two of riders with MORE cash to spend that will not consider the XB series as it now stands. They are the ones who HAVE been buying bikes for the past 20-30 years and Buell missed that market.
Shame on them.
You know, way back when, the United States used to make the most and the BEST of almost everything. From socks to airplanes. But the kind of thinking that has been, and I expect to continue to come from Milwaukee is exactly why we are in the situation we are in now. The minute you get lazy, and arrogant, there is always someone else to take your customers away from you. |
V2win
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 02:46 pm: |
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Now that the S4Ts has a wet clutch, its even more interesting. |
Josh_
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 02:46 pm: |
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>The minute you get lazy, and arrogant, there is always someone else to take your customers away from you.
just ask the Yankees  |
Josh_
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 03:21 pm: |
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I posted my review on a couple FJR sites. Several owners have expressed outrage and stated that there can be no comparison between the 2 bikes.
hmmm a little touchy I think |
Henrik
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 03:42 pm: |
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Touchy about your chosen brand of motorcycle - imagine that
Henrik |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 04:13 pm: |
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Did they post long winded diatribes about it being offtopic for a "Yamaha Enthusiasts Site?"  |
Josh_
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 04:20 pm: |
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nah, just how my opinion was biased and wrong and I should not be making the comparison.
The only real fish...er I mean flamer...er I mean opponent was dicked over by his dealer and now hates all things Buell (go figure). It apparently took him 22 years of riding them to figure out Harley dealers are arrogant (and lots of other things I won't bother repeating). |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 06:40 pm: |
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Josh:
Glad to see the Yamahazi's have chosen you, the most radical amonsgt our ranks, to assail.
The fact that you bought the FZQMT7000 or whatever it was should hush the nay-sayers.
I'd not establish swaying them to the light as your metric for happiness.
If you were a REAL MAN, you'd load Mariabelen and come visit New York City
Court
(Sorry ... had to taunt and troll a bit)
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Josh_
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 06:53 pm: |
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We'll be there in March, but probably sans MetricSuperJet... |
Ray_maines
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 10:02 pm: |
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Josh / V2Win / uwgriz / All:
Triumph makes a pretty good Sport tour bike in the '05 Sprint ST. 1050cc's, 3 cylinders, lots of factory accessories, sharp handling, single sided swing arm, under seat exhaust, good looks, good warranty,............
Triumph UK Web Site
Sprint ST page |
Iamike
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 10:53 pm: |
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A neighbor of mine bought an FJR last year. He offered it to me to try a couple of times and I never took him up on it. We had a club ride back in June, I rode the XX and we were going to swap on the way home. Unfortunately he had to ride his home in pieces. He didn't make a curve and found a sign. Luckily he wasn't hurt.
The FJR & XX have almost identical specs except the FJR has higher handlebars. I wish I could have ridden it.
Like Josh says the Buell's vibration is less at 70 than the IL4s. |
V2win
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 12:54 am: |
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Ray,
You are right about the Triumph. I am looking forward to seeing the new 05. |
Ethanr
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 09:45 am: |
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Nice, Josh. I haven't been called a young punk in years.
The point I was going after...and apparently missed...is that I think Buell needed a way to capture the attention of the next wave of riders. The XB line does just that.
If Buell could have hit the market with both the XB and a sport-tourer I think they would have. Maybe they had to choose between the two and decided to hit the performance side first. It would be great to see them expand the line to include something roomier with more luggage options, and if they do...and they outsell the current line...your point will have been well proven. |
Josh_
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 09:55 am: |
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>I haven't been called a young punk in years
Is it time to point out you're several years older than me and that comment was a generalization not directed at you?
I think John's point (I'm not really making points or trying to take "sides" just musing) is they abandoned a good portion of their existing customer base to make a bike the "kids" will like.
Don't mind me, I was just out of highschool when my Buell was built. |
Josh_
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 10:24 am: |
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One of the issues with the FJR is a "ticking" that develops due to valve guide wear. This post refers to that, but the main reason I'm posting it is it's funny as hell.
By "Gilbo" on fjrowners.ws US forum:
Why when you so close to designing the ultimate high performance sports tourer would you after years of worldwide ownership,let this magnificent Goldfish of a bike allow detractors to criticize with some easily fixable issues.
Just like a magnificent goldfish that shimmers in the light and dazzles with its effects,if you look closely enough ,theres always a piece of •••• hanging. |
Tripper
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 03:38 pm: |
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I just checked out the FJR site. This pic kinda rams home V2win's comment about servicing a Buell. Simple is good. Maybe even worth sacrificing a few horsepower. Imagine doing this every 4000 miles.
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Josh_
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 04:55 pm: |
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The throttle sync? They say it takes 15min with practice (uhm.. right).
Did I already mention this thing has as many carbs/throttlebodies and valves as my whole garage of Buells did earlier?
Get this - if a fuse blows by the side of the road you need to dismantle the dash and remove 8? hex screws (5 with plastic easy-to-lose washers) and 3 tricky plastic connectors just to get to the fuse box.
But they do have all the owners and parts manuals online. |
Steve_mackay
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 05:01 pm: |
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Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Ducati, Aprilia, and BMW make models that I would buy and ride. HD is just too fat and lazy to really go after the market.The market is there. Not only have they "missed" me, but they have missed thousands of others like me.
A thousand and 1. Just count how many S3 & S3T riders are here on Badweb, who wouldn't consider a new XB as an everyday bike. I *REALLY* think Buell is making a big mistake in ignoring the sport touring market. It's more than a niche market these days IMHO. |
Josh_
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 05:13 pm: |
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It does come down to a business decision. Harley looks at the demographics of their core market and then the demographics of the ST market and see them overlap. Nevermind that the guys deciding between a Blackbird with bags or a FJR wouldn't consider a Harley.
that plus Erik prefers to make small racy bikes (original RR, next all original bike the S1, next all original bike the Blast then the XB) means I'm not looking for an ST bike from Buell for a while.
A little change is good anyway. |
Gomo
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 10:44 pm: |
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Perhaps they should have just kept the S3T with there presnt line up. They did the first year of the XB with the tubers . I understand that they wanted to head into another direction, but maybe looking at hindsight they could have done both with perhaps limited production numbers of the S3T. It may not have been the greatest financial decision to do, but there can be a great payoff with customer loyalty - just ask Harley.
I agree we may not see a S3T replacement for sometime (if ever), but I can tell you that with my 6'1" frame I won't be doing any long hauls for days with an XB. I feel too much like a Russian Bear in the circus riding one for any period of time. Granted, they are great bikes but the XB's don't work for me for my type of riding - The S3T does. |
Racerboy
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 07:08 pm: |
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Guys...When H-D purchased more the 50% of Buell's stock the handwriting was on the wall for all of us...I will never forget reading in H-D's annual report a quote from Mr Bluestein to the effect that the acquisition of Buell was a good fit for H-D because Buell riders would someday move "UP" to a H-D...Either that was biz speak or it showed that H-D had no idea of who we are and who were Buell's customers...It is amazing when you think about exactly how well these businessmen understand H-D's core customer base that they could not understand Buell's...If Buell could have produced a quality sport touring bike I still believe they could have sold quite a few and converted a bunch of foreign branded riders to an American ride...There are a lot of us who really want to be on a bike where a significant portion of the revenue stream stays in this country (disregarding foreign stockholders of American companies)...That was one of the reasons I purchased my first Buell...Another key factor that led to my M2 vs Monster decision was I perceived the dealer network to be more extensive...That plus seams to be rapidly going away...
Dealer network...This part of the puzzle is really very important for a touring motorcyclist...It is the reason that I will probably never own another beemer...As much as I liked my R1100RT, there are places, especially in the west, where you can be hundreds of miles from the nearest BMW dealer...Someone told me that there are roughly 150 BMW dealers in Germany and about the same number here...Now cut Germany out of a map and overlay it on the US...And compare populations...Hell, we should have 500 dealers...I know my dealer has griped to BMW NA about this for a long time as it hinders his sales but to no avail...Now Buell is facing this same sales hurdle...And Buell needs no additional hurdles to vault...
Neil...Get your butt and bike ready for the Cajun Christmas rally in LA...It's looking like one ST13 vs about five FJR13's as of now...I'm going to need a support group by the time we get down there...
Bob |
Richieg150
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 11:55 pm: |
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Josh,I bought thishttp://www.motorcycleradar.com/products_pg2_4.htm#Radar%20Screamer,for my Escort 8500,I can hear it riding my Buell,with full face helmet,ear plugs,and force exhaust.There is a high,mute,and low setting for the alarm. |
Josh_
| | Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 01:09 am: |
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I bought this to help with the detector tho I would still like to hear the thing.
I finally felt some heat from the FJR today. Warmest day I've been on it yet (75?) plus I only wore jeans and a mesh jacket. I actually did feel a little heat. Have to wait until next summer I guess to see if it's a real issue.
I'm trying to get Mariabelen to write a short "review" tho I'm pretty sure it's 2-thumbs up for the FJR - and we haven't got the topbox/back rest yet.
Bob, I'm thinking about the cajun trip but we need to work around vacation days (since we'll need at least Fri off. |
Tommy_2stroke
| | Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 12:03 pm: |
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Verrry interesting discussion in this thread...
I too am in the market for an ST bike. This would complement my '05 XB12S, which, though absolutely the most fun I've EVER had on two wheels, simply ain't built for touring. Its built for blasting around on the streets and canyons of SoCal, and its PERFECT for that purpose, near as I can tell. (And you can have it back when you pry my cold, dead fingers off of it, etc.)
I don't know where I fit in all this discussion of demographics, being 58 years old. I'm not sure why, but Buells had slipped beneath my radar until the XB series appeared. Thus I have no experience with the S3T, or any of the tubers for that matter... my loss I guess. And no, Mr. Bleustein, but I have no interest at all in "moving up" to a Harley...
The FJR is at the top of my list for big-fast touring bike. Reading the reviews, its at the top of EVERYBODY's list, really. Its widely regarded as the best ST bike in production. And since an equivalent new ST bike from Buell is zero probability, I will likely buy an FJR. Hey, I can't wait around forever like you young punks <g>, I want to sport-tour NOW.
Thanks Josh for your excellent review, most enlightening...
(Message edited by tommy_2stroke on October 24, 2004) |
Josh_
| | Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 04:42 pm: |
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Sfarson
| | Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 07:27 pm: |
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Let me just toss in the Ducati ST4s for consideration. I've been around (group rides) or on them all. It is my favorite sport tourer.
That superbike engine between the knees is something to behold. The light weight, handling, v-twin grunt, etc. and etc. is top shelf. Please oh please don't get me started on the finest exhaust note this side of the solar system. If you have any weakness for exhaust music one must give the ST4s strong consideration.
Two pushbacks many (non-Ducati) throw out... reliability, maintenance.
Just passed the three year mark on my ST4s. Zero problems. None. Nada.
Yes, the 6K valve check can add a couple hundred $$$ to a 6K service. IF THEY ARE OUT OF SPEC. Often they aren't. My last 6K service was $280. Additionally, many race shops speak Ducati and they cost less than the dealers. Gary Eagan, a winning Iron Butt rider was mentioned in the following post...
I think the record (and final authority) has to be Gary
Eagan - 118,000 miles on his ST4s in 13 months. Here's what he said:
"We did the 6,000 mile service on the nose, but after never did valves
in fewer than about 12,000 miles, often going up to 18,000 miles when
on very long rides. The valves never fell out of recommended settings
during the life of the machine."
The FJR is a sweet machine, but give me the Ducati. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 07:58 pm: |
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I don't know; in 60,000 miles I never even had to inspect the valves on my S3-T. and the exhaust note was sweet to me. In fact, it was the most beautiful motorcycle I've ever owned; and was one of the best feeling bikes , as well. Ducks are O.K if you like unnecessarily complex valve actuation, but if I was going to go Italian, I'd be looking at a Guzzi. Especially since they've discovered hydraulic lifters. |
Gomo
| | Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 08:20 pm: |
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The one other bike I did like is also discontinued - Triumph's Trophy 1200. Nice ST, although many did not like the idea of a chain. Too bad they stopped making that as well. I think trying to find parts for it in the future as well as servicing may turn out to be more of a hassle than what we've read on this site about Buell's.
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