| Author | Message | ||
     Shea |
So I met Steve at Lancaster Harley. Hell of a guy and a fellow Buell lover (has 6 of them). He worked on my bike for me. He found the timing was off a bit, so he readjusted that and reset the TPS and AFV. Bikes runs better, but is still falling on its' face when at full throttle at low RPMs. Top end feels stronger though, so that's good. Seems like the bike is flooding until the valve opens, then getting really lean until it closes. This tells me that the valve is the culprit, but I can't get rid of it unless I get a new muffler. The dyno tells the obvious. Looks like I am in need of a tune. | ||
| Shea |
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/2391000-2391999/2391878_14_ful l.jpg | ||
| Shea |
Oh yeah, Steve showed me their XBRR. It looks nothing like it does from the pictures. Very wide front end with carbon fiber air ducts. Bad arse! (Message edited by Shea on September 26, 2006) | ||
| Diablobrian |
The other option is to pin the valve open or closed and disconnect the cable from it then tune it with either a piggy-back (tfi or pc) or with direct link. If you do it be sure to disconnect the valve actuator, but leave the drive motor connected to prevent seeing false check engine error codes. The piggy back units should be available fairly cheap since they have become pretty much obsolete now that direct link is out. | ||
| Elff |
Steve is a great guy. I bought my XB12R from Lancaster HD and really love the support I have gotten from them. They searched and found a Race kit for me and This time I let them install it. Kudos to Lancaster HD from me. I have only good things to say about them. Anyone in the PA/NJ area, it would be worth your while to visit them if you are in the market for a bike or accessories as they have a good selection. | ||
| Daves |
Is it just me or am just not seeing the dip in the power? Looks pretty smooth and good to me? The AF is off but I just am not seeing the dip in power? I can barley read the numbers but it looked like about 80 HP and 72 lbs tq? Depending on the dyno that isn't too bad. Do you have a chart where the dip isn't hidden by the HP and TQ numbers? Maybe one that isn't "smoothed" as much? Is the dip the little one at about 3500-3700 RPM? | ||
| No_rice |
it is maybe 10 or so down from what you would normally see it seems, but like dave said it depends on the dyno also. it does look like rather smooth power curve though. | ||
| Daves |
On our Dyno most XB 12s have about 85 HP | ||
| No_rice |
ours could easily be reading a little high. high 80's to 90 on the few that have been run. i've noticed if you want to play very much it pays to keep using the same dyno so you have a consistant reading. | ||
| Khollister |
I have my HD's tuned by the SE instructor at MMI here in Orlando. He commented when I was down there last that there is a 5-10% difference in HP readings between the WinPEP 6 & WinPEP 7 software (WinPEP 6 is higher). He said this is being reported by many other tuners. | ||
| Blake |
Don't wack the throttle open at low engine speeds; instead try rolling it open in a more controlled steady fashion. | ||
| Shea |
Blake, even rolling the throttle in low RPMs can result in the same thing. Even the guy who dynoed it could hear and feel it bog at those low RPMs when he gave it full throttle. Sorry, not sure why my pic did that. When I scanned it and open it with the scanner's viewer, the pic is large. Dunno why it's so small on here. The fellow there said that he also expected a flatter torque range and that's most likely why it feels like it's bogging. He was pretty sure that with a tune he could flatten it out and possibly get it to peak a little faster than this. He showed me an XB9 dyno in which the torque curve was pretty flat to start with and used a Techlusion to gain 9hp and a few ft-lbs, but the biggest change was a higher spike and flatter line. He also told me that there is getting to be more and more software for Buells. Right now, they don't have any Buell software, but if I came to him with a device, he could use it to dyno tune my bike. I just need to find out now what to get. He said that someone had bought a device through parts that no one had heard of and it did well. He thought it was called Rapid Bike. Has anyone heard of it? | ||
| Skully |
Is this a stock bike? | ||
| Shea |
No, has an Econo Drummer | ||
| Skully |
That does seem a bit low. Have you reviewed the test report at American Sport Bike from the extensive testing that Al did? | ||
| Shea |
No, I'll look on his site. If it's not easy to find, can you post a link? Thanks | ||
| Glitch |
Here ya go, Bud. | ||
| Shea |
Thanks Glitch. LOL BTW, I saw the post that Al made about the Techno Research device. Was he refering to the Rapid Bike Flasher? What is the price, if anyone knows? | ||
| Glitch |
I think this is what you're thinking about. | ||
| Buelltroll |
Matt and the Trojan race bike WERE using the rapid bike system. Dunno if they still are,it was out about a year before the direct link software. You should ask him about it. | ||
| Shea |
http://www.technoresearch.com/Products/Rapid-Bike/Rapid-Bike.htm | ||
| Diablobrian |
Direct Link is the product that Al and Terry were using in the shootout. It re-maps your stock or race ecm with a custom built map. According to Al it takes a while to learn though and is not as intuitive as he would like. | ||
| Skully |
After using the Power Commander software, the Direct-Link is a snap to use. It provides you with AFV results that are very useful for tuning. | ||
| Brineusaf |
awful horrendously long link to some other web page! There you go my friend... sorry I don't know how to make the link different. I did, on account of I read the "Help" and "Formatting" pages here on BadWeB.  I've heard good things about this setup. (Message edited by Blake on September 27, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
"Even the guy who dynoed it could hear and feel it bog at those low RPMs when he gave it full throttle. " Right. I'll try to make this more clear. Don't go to full throttle at low RPMs. | ||
| Blake |
Also, all bets are off if the bike is not stock. | ||
| Tunes |
Both of my EFI Buells would pitch me off if I tried to go WFO at low rpm's............ either by stumbling or grabbing me and throwing me off! Seriously, these engines were not designed to perform that way... Sure, you can make better bottom-end by changing the muffler and mapping, but stock and/or unmapped? Not that I've read or heard. | ||
| Aeholton |
Your graphs seem very close to what I get with my XB12X. I don't see that it is down on power. My graphs can be viewed here: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/3842/189271.html?1148684687 | ||
| Shea |
"Right. I'll try to make this more clear. Don't go to full throttle at low RPMs." Alright Blake, I'll try to make this clear to you. I bought a V-twin engine for low end torque. These have a history of having low end grunt. You are telling me "Just dont use full throttle at low RPMs", yet that now defeats the reason why 90% of us have bought this bike. I am looking to fix the problem, not avoid it. You ride how you want to ride, but I am obviously looking for something different than you; making it run like a V twin. | ||
| Shea |
I am again working with Kevin on this one again. I ruled out alot of stuff by taking it to the dealer, so I talked ot Kevin. I cut out some sections of my air box on the left side and rode it today. Amazingly, it has helped. The dead spot actually moved up the RPM range a bit, but it feels more leveled out. Actually gained some extra pull up top too. All on the stock ECM, amazing, isn't it? Once again, Kevin is the man!!  I am probably going to get a K and N filter also. Think that will pretty much solve most of my problem, atleast enough to make me happy. | ||
| 99buellx1 |
IMHO From that chart, there is no way that the motor is inhibiting your ability to do a wheelie. | ||
| 99buellx1 |
Try this: Since your peak tq is at about 4500 thru 5000 rpm. Ride the bike in first or second gear to about 3500-4000 rpm, then clutch it and wick up the throttle so that it will put the motor into the area of max tq after you drop the clutch again. This, I believe, will get it for you. The key is to keep the bike below the area of max tq before loading it so that max tq area is useable. | ||
| Blake |
Shea, no non-CV intake, non accelerator pump fed engine is going to run well when snapped to full throttle at a low engine speed. It is an overkill situation where there is for an instant way too much intake for what the engine is requiring; the slower moving intake charge doesn't facilitate optimum mixing of the fuel with the air. You simply don't gain power using a larger throttle opening than can optimally fill the combustion chamber. From a low RPM, always roll on the throttle instead of snapping it open. This is not something peculiar to Buell engines; it applies to most any non-CV throttled and/or non-accelerator pumped engine. Without a CV valve or an accelerator pump, there is just too much slow moving air for optimum efficiency when wacking the throttle open at low engine speeds. Try it from 2500 or 3000 rpm. That's my theory anyway. I could be wrong. I know that both my Nissan truck and our Ford Exploder hiccough under similar circumstances. I know my old Yammer did the same. My Cyclone doesn't, but it has an accelerator pump and a CV (constant velocity) carburetor, meaning that in addition to the normal butterfly valve it also has another automatic intake tract valve that doesn't open fully until the engine speed AND throttle position warrants. The Japan Inc bikes incorporate just such a CV valve on some of their repliracer models just to avoid the scenario you are describing. The easy and valid solution is just to avoid snapping the throttle open at low engine speeds. It's just part of knowing how to best operate the bike, no different than know when/how to operate the clutch. Would you complain that when you let the clutch snap closed that the bike lurched forward? Of course not, you know to gradually engage the clutch, not dump it all at once in an instant. Same same. Really. (Message edited by Blake on September 27, 2006) | ||
| The_new_guy |
Blake - Isn't it more noticeable with these vtwins though? I haven't ridden a ton of buells or harleys but they all seemed to feel a little better when rolling on the throttle, rather than gunning it hard. Just my opinion. Gregg | ||
| Blake |
It would be more noticeable it seems on bikes that have more power down low, which twin cylinder bikes typically have compared to four cylinder machines. A comparably powered (to a Buell) IL4 is typically so weak down low that you wouldn't notice the problem. Down low for a 600cc repliracer is around 5000 rpm. LOL! | ||
| Dago |
"Down low for a 600cc repliracer is around 5000 rpm. LOL!" And XB's quit making power at around 6,500 rpm. LOL! It works both ways ya' know. And for the record, I consider 7,000 rpm low on my 600. But the only time I below that is rolling through the pits. | ||
| Moboy516 |
I could be wrong, but wasn't one of the drawbacks of the econo drummer the loss of power down low? I am a fan of the drummers, but I would suspect that Kevin would tell you that this a reason they are "econo." |
