| Author | Message | ||
     Spatten1 |
Yeah, it is a bit of common mis-information on this board that short stroke inline 4's don't make plenty of lower end torque. It is true of the 600's. They totally sacrifice low end for racing HP. However, if you get into the bikes with engine displacement equal to the XB engines they make tons of torque and keep reving to produce tons of HP too. This may be helped by using four valves which allows for the intakes to move more air and close sooner, to get longer compression stroke. Any engineers in the house that can eloborate? | ||
| Hootowl |
Grenade! "I'll be glad that my 2007 will be one of the last "real" Buells." The tubers are the last of the real Buells. | ||
| Jaimec |
Four tiny valves can flow more air than two big ones. They also require much lighter weight springs. All of this results in lighter valve train weight which allows the engine to spin faster. The yardstick for a high performance engine USED to be 100 horsepower per liter. Keep in mind that modern IL4 600s DOUBLE that in stock trim (even before they're tuned for the track). That they do this reliably for thousands of miles without requiring a rebuild is another miracle of modern materials and technology. You just have to step out of the world of Harley Davidson to see this, that's all. | ||
| Spatten1 |
"You just have to step out of the world of Harley Davidson to see this, that's all." Blasphemy! You have been excommunicated! No kool-aid for you! | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
The yardstick for a high performance engine USED to be 100 horsepower per liter But the yardstick for high performance VEHICLES has always been pounds per horsepower..... Displacement is for rulebooks, displacement equity is for classes that all run the same configuration - like NASCAR. For every other kind of racing, variations in displacement have been allowed for different engine configurations to promote equality, fan interest and manufacturer participation. This isn't anything new and running or rooting for what you think is best has always been part of the fun! (Message edited by scott_in_nh on December 29, 2006) | ||
| Spatten1 |
I'll follow that logic. Have Buell build a 2000cc bike that has makes great power, and keep it light and small. Everyone would be thrilled. I think all people want is power and reliability as well as light weight. | ||
| Blake |
Yeah, 150 BHP out of a 600cc engine is cool, high tech and all that. Having to spin it to 16,000 to get to that power is not, at least not for a street bike. I'd rather eat dirt than have to ride a bike like that for any length of time. | ||
| Jaimec |
"But the yardstick for high performance VEHICLES has always been pounds per horsepower....." But Buell loses here too... | ||
| Spatten1 |
I can't stand 600's either. At 210lbs I can't take it. Before Buell, I've only owned literbikes since 1995. Just lug them without shifting too much. Less soul than the twins. I'd really like to get an engine from Buell that retains the soul but ups power about 50%. I'm guessing it would need to be a new engine. If Buell could do it with the current platform, great, but it doesn't really seem very practical. Either way, my bike is really fun to ride and full of soul. I just want to see an American company build a butt kicking bike too. Make both. | ||
| Ducxl |
Having to spin it to 16,000 to get to that power is not, at least not for a street bike They're ENGINEERED to run up there,and at 10,000 they're like our beloved Buells' at 4500 rpms.No big deal,just a lot of noise,like our "Drummers". | ||
| Blake |
Scott, I agree. Duc, Understood. I would just rather eat dirt than have to listen to the incessant whine/scream. It grates on my nerves something terrible. (Message edited by Blake on December 30, 2006) | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
But Buell loses here too... Agreed, but that should be the target, not matching cc output... It is close enough for me to have put it to many poorly ridden "faster" bikes at the dragstrip and many of you guys talk about leaving 600's in the twisties..... Greg I've spent enough time on I4's to know what you say is true but I prefer to not have to ride around constantly over 7K to be in the power. Nor do I like all of the shifting and noise that goes with that. That said, sure I wish we had 50% more power and 1 or 2k more revs..... | ||
| Xl1200r |
Ok guys, the "last of the real Buells" comment was just a joke - didn't mean to offend anyone. And I'm sure the newer liter bikes have plenty of torque as well, but like others have said, the engines are just no fun for the street. I don't want an engine that I feel like I have to beat on to get good power out of it. And 150hp out of these XL-based engines is not that big of a deal, but to keep them reliable drives the cost way up. I'm not totally closed to the idea of an OHC water cooled powerplant. If that was all that was availible in a Buell, I don't think it would keep me from buying one. But given the choice, I'll take the ancient engine. Personally, I think the whole thing is just too subjective to be able to reasonably argue anyways... | ||
| Hootowl |
As was mine. That's why I yelled grenade before I tossed it. | ||
| Jiffy |
Put a water cooled engine that makes 150hp in a Buell race replica type bike. Keep improving upon the XB line too with the air cooled motor. So we have both lines to please 2 different types of riders. Buell makes more money by selling their racer bike to the race replica horsepower fans and keeps its current air cooled fans happy with the XB. Problem solved. | ||
| Jaimec |
Just as BMW did in the 80's when they introduced the four cylinder K bike. | ||
| Cochise |
Give me 15 more h.p. with a shorter stroke on the same motor so I can still hang a Micron on it and be good. | ||
| Blake |
Jiffy, Why must you specify "water-cooled"? I don't get it. | ||
| Az_m2 |
It's my perception that a watercooled motor will run smoother, quieter, and will not have the shaking at idle. If that's true, I'm all for it. Maybe this can be achieved with an air cooled motor? I don't know much about it. | ||
| Rocketman |
I would just rather eat dirt than have to listen to the incessant whine/scream. It grates on my nerves something terrible. You'd rather eat dirt than listen to a high revving engine on the pipe? Mate, you need to go find a Brutale and a Benelli TNT before you go saying you'd rather eat dirt. There is no better sound coming out of a high revving engine anywhere. It is pure music to any petrol heads ears. Didn't they run the classic Honda Six GP bike at Laguna when you were there? That is an unbelievable sound. Or do you wear ear muffs when you go spectating? Eat dirt indeed! Rocket | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Yesterday we went for a bit of a canter on the local tight twisties, riding what is known as "The Pace". Mounts involved were a watercooled DOHC 600 cc inline four, an air cooled 1200cc pushrod vee twin, and Italian watercooled desmo 749 vee twin, and an Italian 1000cc watercooled DOHC vee twin. I could not help but notice that once the riding order had sorted itself out, the smallest bike was in the lead, followed by the vee twins in inverse order of purchase price. My conclusion: The Glitch is absolutely correct when he says that, "It's the Indian, not the arrow".  | ||
| Xl1200r |
It's my perception that a watercooled motor will run smoother, quieter, and will not have the shaking at idle. If that's true, I'm all for it. Maybe this can be achieved with an air cooled motor? I don't know much about it. The only part that a watercooled engine (changing nothing else) would fix is the noise because the water jacket would provide some insulation. The roughness and shaking at idle is due entirely to the 45 degree, common crankpin configuration of the engine. Some say this design is outdated, but some very interesting things happen with power and cylinder charge with this oddfire design, especially when using a single intake tract. | ||
| Blake |
At the track a screaming engine is fine Sean. I'm talking about the bike that I want to be riding on the street. If the Japan Inc folks would wise up and offer some big bang configurations out there for their IL4 repliracers, they would sell more bikes. | ||
| Sparky |
The 45 degree V-twin could be counter-balanced to offset most of the bad vibes. And while they're at it, they could also move the alternator from the crankshaft to the counter-balancer, thus making the balancer a multi-function part. Could this ever happen? Nah, too logical. Too expensive. Besides, if it were feasible, someone would've done it. | ||
| Percyco |
This whole thread is very amusing........Buell motorcycles have been powered by H-D engines since the beginning of time. Now the H-D company owns the brand,H-D has used an air cooled v-twin since the stone age and seems to crush its competition in sales every year. Like myself, probably half the Buell owners on this board also own Harleys. I bought the XB because I like the v-twin, air cooled, pushrod rattle box farm equipment powered bike. And it was a nice addition to my other American v-twin bikes in my collection. I don't think H-D/Buell will stray from its roots anytime to soon. If you want a high powered crotch rocket.....Buell doesn't sell them so shop another breed. I don't shop Buell for my dirtbikes because they don't build them either. They are what they are, all the keyboard jockeys with big ideas need to start there own motorcycle company. Hey.....Erik Buell from Cornfield County Pa. did !  | ||
| Reepicheep |
I would love to shop Buell for a dirtbike. I think they could build a better XR650 then Honda does... and that's no disrespect to the XR650, which I would love to own. But I think Buell and HD could build one that works as well but has a motor that makes more power and lasts longer. | ||
| Spatten1 |
"Buell motorcycles have been powered by H-D engines since the beginning of time." Not True. | ||
| Diablobrian |
I seem to recall a distinctly non-Harley Davidson 2 stroke square-4 powering the first Buell. Barton ring any bells? How about "Silver Dream Racer"? | ||
| Percyco |
That statement is very true, according to the book " The Harley Davidson Century". The Buell RR1000 powered by the Sportster based XR1000 race bike engine was built in 1985. Two full years before Erik Buell started the company called Buell Motors. So.......not only were H-D engines used since the beginning of time, they were also used before the beginning of time pre-BMC. Thanks for clearing that up !  | ||
| Spatten1 |
The RR1000 was not the first Buell. |
