| Author | Message | ||
     Froggy |
The point I have been trying to get across is that we can and do build some of the best cars in the world. Even watching Top Gear, the 3 hosts recently came to America, drove the Corvette ZR1, Challenger, and CTS. All 3 of them loved it.
The 14 billion is just to keep the lights on till Obama takes office and implements his economic and energy policies which include funding to GM. The 14 billion was already going to GM to start with, but was originally intended to be for development of more fuel efficient vehicles.
You find people like that in all industries in America.
Everyone does it.
I wish we would.  | ||
| Froggy |
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/ 20080405/AUTO01/804050355/1148 | ||
| Cochise |
They sure as hell did. My old government job had hybrid civics before switching to the Priass. Click the link if you don't believe me. I did click the link which was for 2007. I didn't believe you, until I read the link, which is why I asked the corporate rep that was here at the dealership today. Granted there are fleet vehicles listed, but Honda Corporate will argue to the death that they don't do fleet sales. As a matter of fact, the most vehicles that any one person/entity can purchase is 9 or 10. The whole purpose of NOT doing fleet is so they can keep residual prices up and resale values up, which is why you will always have a higher priced Honda. They are the cleanest burning, highest quality vehicles made | ||
| Xl1200r |
They [Hondas] are the cleanest burning, highest quality vehicles made My god, it's like a contagious disease. Froggy, I admire your pride in this (I'm WAY on your side), but in talking to most people I know, the domestic vs. foreign car argument is harder than arguing polotics. 98% of the people know they will either never buy a foriegn car or that they will only buy a foreign car (at least in conversation). I've seen very people switch either way, and if they do it's generally temporary (only a vehicle or two). My Cobalt has been flawless. The superchrager gets me to 60mph is 6 seconds, and gives me as much as 37mpg on the highway. I'm a GM guy - always have been - but if they go under and Ford stays, then Ford it is. | ||
| Bigredwood |
The juice has been drunk. I was raised as a Ford son. My great-grandfather was a sales rep and mechanic for Ford. My family bleeds blue. My father currently owns (2) 63' Galaxies, a 64' Falcon, a F-250, and too many motors to type out. But I am split on the entire Big 3 Bailout. After growing up in a family that never waived my father expressed a new mental a few years back. "Son, you need three vehicles to make ya happy. A Sunday car, the one that you take the kids and wife out when it is special. A truck, so you don't need to borrow one when you need to haul shit. And a Honda, so when the truck and sunday car break down you can still get to work." I still own a Ford truck but my wife drives a CR-V. The fit and finish of this vehicle is great. We looked at the Edge and it didn't. Yes this is personal preference, but we get the right to chose. My favorite part of being American, choice. If the American companies want to sell me a car . . . make something appealing. Outside the pony-cars I truly don't see an attention-getter. I have to agree with XBpete. I work in an Union manufacturing plant. The lowest paid employee get 20.61/hr after their probation period. If you work Saturday you get time-and-ahalf. If you work Sunday you get double-time. (even if you didn't work M-F) The average yearly income is roughly 85K a year. There are 100+ Union employees that earn more than 100K a year to make a product that you are all familiar with. I understand fair pay and the Corporate America's demons. But since I got to work this evening I have heard: -I HAVE to work Sunday. (Mechanic: 28 .76 x 2 = 57.52) -My boss wrote me up for long breaks (2 hours out of 8) -That's OK I get paid by the hour. -Just counting till my 8 is over. -They don't pay me enough to mop floors. In a plant with 575 Union employees, 15% are college educated. Several gained this job directly out of high school. The work done is by no means difficult. I worked as a seasonal employee in this same plant 12 years prior. (when I went to college for the social life) The work ethic and attitude of the employees was different. People had fun here, we loved to come to work. We need to stop blaming others and look inside ourselves. Americans have become spoiled and lazy. Time magazine (Dec. 1 copy) did an article about the health of Americans. We have the most advanced health care on the planet. Yet, 70% of Americans are over-weight and 39% openly admit to never excercising. We have the highest health care bills per capita and have a lower life expectancy than a dozen other countries. If we are so lazy that we can't take care of our own bodies . . . are we lazy at our jobs? The US needs to embrace the generations of past. A good job at fair pay is there. But when Union contracts come up we somehow need MORE! I just think it is time for us to start being proud of what we do and the products we make. More U.S. jobs have gone to Canada in the recent past. Why would the big, bad companies ship jobs to a demographic so similar to America's. It isn't for lower labor costs? -They don't have to deal with an American labor force. Woody p.s. Nation health care in Canada is moot . . . Average health care cost for Americans 7,300/yr vs. Canadians 3,500/yr. Yes we are that Fat! | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
We're looking at replacing the wife's FIAT Multipla, & as a rule I don't buy new vehicles (The XB12sTT was an exception due to an impossibly unbeatable price) but at the moment the deals on offer are outstanding. As someone who spends most of his worktime hauling for a car manufacturer I'd like to buy one of their products, & feel as if I was supporting the industry & myself. Peugeot/Citroen are making some superb cars these days. Trouble is they don't make anything I want to buy. Madame wants a Kia Soul, & having looked at it on the web, it looks like it'll fit the bill. Given that new it'll cost the same as a 2yr old equivalent Ford or French car & 3-4yr old German, it's a no brainer. I'm all for supporting my local & national industries in principle but if they're not supplying what I want at a price I can afford, I'll have to pass. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
the cost of labor in the price of a car/truck is about 10%. Why oh why do some people think that Americans should work for peanuts? It the GREED at the top. It's the failing economy. Why can't you get it through your thick frickin' skulls. Some of you seems so anti union and dare I say ANTI AMERICAN! Open your eyes. You want to work for $5.00 an hour? Move somewhere else and stop blaming the middle class of this Country. Now some Senators think that the workers should take a 50% cut in pay. How the hell is that going to help our economy? Same Senators of states where they gave MILLIONS of dollars to bring in overseas car companies. AMERICA FIRST? What a load of bullshit. This is a full blown war on the American worker, and some of you seem to be on the wrong side. Big 3 going under? Union busting? You'd all get what you deserved if that happens. I hope it doesn't but boy it would be ye opening for all of us. And not in a good way. Be careful for what you wish for. It might come true. Makes me laugh that most of you would die a slow death to stand up for Buell, but can't jump on the band wagon fast enough to bash American car makers. Seems kind of hypocritical to me considering to most of the motorcycle world that Buell is an American made joke. A view I don't share, but it's there just the same. Support American works. Last time I checked, most on this board ARE American workers. | ||
| Court |
Interesting today that GM has bought in a bankruptcy firm, Chrysler did last week. Sounds like GM will be lucky to make payroll Christmas week. What a shame. . . . times are changing. (Message edited by court on December 12, 2008) | ||
| Benm2 |
The above copied from a Wall Street Journal online article, http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122903816924599853 .html Notice that while there was a push for parity for the laborers to accept the same wages as their US/Japanese factory counterparts, there was NO corresponding demand that those at the UPPER end of the pay scale to the same. The CEO of Toyota is estimated to make about $1M per year, and this is correspondingly reflected throughout the rest of the management structure. The CEO of GM was estimated to have made about $14.6M in total compensation in 2007, and again this number is not exclusive to the CEO. So while the bailout didn't pass since the UAW refused to accept wage concessions that would pull its wages down to "Nissan" levels, the executives continue gleefully along with their pockets brimming. Other companies have a different structure, and have proven to be better able to compete as a result. GM & Chrysler don't need the money for one more pipeful of crack, I don't believe their promise that they'll quit after one more high. (Ford has already said they'll survive without the money) They need Chapter 11 rehab. | ||
| Court |
>>>>But those talks fell apart after Republicans insisted that wages reach parity in 2009. The deal also fell apart last night when the UAW basically said they'd think about pay cuts but couldn't get to it for a while. GM has indicated that they can't make it through spring. Ford has quite a bit of cash. This is going to be interesting. My personal take is that things will continue to to get worse through late 1Q 2010, we'll see. It's not the automakers that need to change, it's the way America does business. We are no longer a manufacturing economy. We are preparing to buy two cars in May and I am wondering what would happen if sales on foreign made cars were banned in the USA for 2 years. . . Interesting that the companies with the most to loose are the Japanese who use a lot of American suppliers . . . I see Toyota issued a statement this morning. | ||
| Benm2 |
I wonder if Toyota would buy GM out of Chapter 11... | ||
| Benm2 |
Sad but true. Since we can't all be bankers, what the heck are we supposed do? What economics need to be put in place to get manufacturing to move BACK to the US? | ||
| Brumbear |
Average health "insurance" costs $8K a year add in 30$ copays to each visit medicine copay which can get up to 100 in one doc's vist and then if you have to go to hospital average 20%your responibilty up to 10K it relly costs about 10-12K per year more if you have more than 2 kids I'll wager. That makes Health "care" not moot. But aside from that I agree the Union shops can be a little bit of the fat cats but not all I have some accounts the guys can't pee without managment jumping on em but thats the extreme.The Gov. employees are more the FATRATS though they honestly seem to take up space and money to me they are 85% worthless. The car manufactures I am pissed at those fat cats but it's not the all workers fault it's the greedy Union and the car companies who cut corners. | ||
| Jlnance |
Same Senators of states where they gave MILLIONS of dollars to bring in overseas car companies. AMERICA FIRST? Why do you see this as bad? Isn't it a good thing to attract foreign investment? Makes me laugh that most of you would die a slow death to stand up for Buell, but can't jump on the band wagon fast enough to bash American car makers. Seems kind of hypocritical to me considering to most of the motorcycle world that Buell is an American made joke. Buell sells more than half it's bikes overseas. That is exactly the kind of business model that helps the overall US economy. Its not as clear cut for the big 3 auto makers, as they have plants all over the world. But I think the perception is that their cars aren't good enough to export. I don't know if that's true, but it is the perception. Their marketing approach seems to be "hey, you're supposed to buy this car because it's made in America," which I can buy into for a short while. But it's been going on for 30 years. It should not be my birthright as an American to drive a POS car. | ||
| Xbpete |
Where was all the furor when AIG received 140 Billion dollars... For 1/10th of that we might just survive an industry, find a way to make that industry profitable and recover. I personally am sick and tired of the finger pointing by the parties involved. Be it the UAW, suppliers, executives, white collar or Barney Frank! This industry has tentacles throughout the American business environment, each capable of taking less if it means survival yet each looking at the others involved and not taking the first step... The proverbial fairness doctrine..." that just isn't fair! " I see nothing in the Constitution or Bill of Rights stating that life will be fair. It is not fairness, it is survival, all parties involved with auto manufacture need to make concessions without finger pointing and develop a business plan and car line that works for the 21st Century world . (Message edited by xbpete on December 12, 2008) | ||
| Spiderman |
Since we can't all be bankers, what the heck are we supposed do? Go to school, become engineers or teachers or doctors or nurses or a million other things... Hell run for office and change things, start a revolution! | ||
| Aeholton |
I see nothing in the Constitution or Bill of Rights stating that life will be fair. That's why they should be allowed to fail. The federal government has no business funding private business. And that goes for banks, insurance companies, wall street, auto makers, and individual mortgages. | ||
| Xbpete |
Two words about government and business... Military Spending.. They already do fund an entire sector of our economy...... | ||
| Zane |
As structured, the bail out was a waste of money. Until the auto industries and the UAW change the fundamental way the do business they are doomed to failure, plain and simple. What they are doing isn't working any more yet the refuse to see that. Until such time, if any that they change into something viable , why throw good money after bad. | ||
| Swordsman |
Froggy, I honestly don't mean this to sound harsh, but statistics and reports haven't made my car one bit better. I do understand that my case is not the norm, but that doesn't make it sit any better with me. I actually chose to buy American this time around because I was tired of this country selling its soul overseas. The Mustang is still made on our own soil, and I was willing to take a risk on it to support American business. Unfortunately, I have now witnessed first hand how US auto manufacturers earned their crap reputation. BTW, I trust JD Powers about as far as I can spit. I personally feel they make up awards for anyone that tosses them a check. ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on December 12, 2008) | ||
| Hootowl |
"Military Spending.. They already do fund an entire sector of our economy......" Yes, but they are the customer in that scenario, not the sugar daddy. | ||
| Court |
Bush, as suspected, stepped in and did what Congress either would not or could not. . . . I'm less concerned about automakers as I am the guy who runs the barbershop or restaurant in front of the plant. | ||
| Bigredwood |
Makes me laugh that most of you would die a slow death to stand up for Buell, but can't jump on the band wagon fast enough to bash American car makers. Seems kind of hypocritical to me considering to most of the motorcycle world that Buell is an American made joke. My loyalty to Buell was only solidified when Eric Buell replaced a 'lemon' built Uly. When Ford buys Swordsman a new Mustang maybe I will recant my position. This is the best customer service company I have ever dealt with . . . if only they had their own dealerships. Yes Rocketsprink,I am part of the American labor force. I was a union laborer for ten years. I build roads and buildings and earned every penny of my 14.25 an hour. Then I would get denied medical coverage by the insurance company that the union owned! (CLTE C.ontractors, L.aborers, T.eamsters and E.ngineers) All because I was a seasonal employee (can only pour mud in NE 9mos.) that wouldn't take unemployment checks!! I would actually go to work instead of take a handout. Then the employees dumped the union . . .only to be given a 4.00 hour raise to compensate our new found burden of medical coverage and retirement. But after it was said and done the company that I bleed for pushed me to further my education and exact words . . . 'harvest my potential.' Now I work at a third shift job my former employer found for me. (So I can go to school during the day) My medical coverage and retirement are still being validated by my former employers and the tuition reimbursemnet is matched between the two. The union only asked me for dues and pushed me to vote for popular guys chasing office. Vrana Construction gave us these oppurtunities because we worked for our compensation. (We didn't need to demand it!) All in all the system is f'ckd. I am surrounded by people that get pissed with my haves versus their have-nots. But damn it . . . I worked my ass off to get here. I only buy stuff I can afford and I have paid for everything (besides my house and my wifes new car) with cash. I ride/race dirtbikes. To fund the purchasing/maintaining/building up of these bikes I spent ever free moment since my youth grinding out at the local bikeshop. Nothing is free. Success is not handed out. And all the people saying I hope you get what you ask for . . . can kiss my ever-working-harder ass. When the current system folds watch out for those that will work for thier paychecks instead of demand them. The most important benefit at any job is . . . having a job. For those that don't believe me . . . wait till you are expected to produce actual $30.00/hour performance! | ||
| Damnut |
Saw this today. Do auto workers really earn $73 an hour? The New York Times debunks the claim that the Big Three auto workers earn $73 an hour. That number came from the car companies themselves during union negotiations, writes David Leonhardt. But it isn't completely accurate. Yes, the companies do spend about $73 for every hour of unionized work, Leonhardt writes. Not all of that goes to the worker's pocket. Here's how it breaks down: Cash: All the basics -- wages, overtime and vacation pay -- add up to $40 an hour. Extras: Health insurance and pension costs total about $15 an hour. Retiree benefits: These are fixed costs, and the Big Three have a huge pool of retirees out there, Leonhardt writes. They add up to about $15 an hour. So the true hourly salary for a union worker is about $55. That's about twice what the typical American worker makes. And it's about $10 more than what a nonunionized worker at Honda or Toyota makes, Leonhardt writes. "There is good reason to keep GM and Chrysler from collapsing in 2009. (Ford is in slightly better shape.) The economy is in the worst recession in a generation. You can think of the Detroit bailout as a relatively cost-effective form of stimulus. It’s often cheaper to keep workers in their jobs than to create new jobs." But, he adds, the Big Three will have to get smaller to survive. | ||
| Xbpete |
Well spoken... As I have written, the ZO-6 , Ford GT40 are the best!!! And the Buell.....unique and incredibly good!! We as Americans can do it... but for some "the boss OWES me a living" reason don't. Old way = "I will give my employer an honest days work for an honest days pay and do my job to the BEST of my ability" | ||
| Jb2 |
I worked in the Carpenters Union(UBEWC) for 5 years. I swore I'd never work in a union shop again. I took my love of cars and metal-working skills and made an abrupt change at 23 and walked off the union job to enter collision repair. Since then I have always negotiated my wages and benefits one-on-one with my employers. In troubled times(working commission) we made less and in good times we made more. We learned to live within our means and have money saved back for the slow times. For some reason the UAW thinks they are above all of this. If they are so damned valuable to the companies they work for then why wouldn't they make concessions in tough times. How are they better or more deserving than skilled people who know what good times and bad times are and have learned to cope with it? The UAW flat refused last night to give in and now blames the GOP. They need a reality check. Maybe losing their job would be a good place to start. Here's a dose of reality in the form of satire. Damn shame Fred won't be our next president. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IrR3o7x1ps | ||
| B00stzx3 |
Go Ford and Buell. Be patriotic, buy American. | ||
| Xl1200r |
That's why they should be allowed to fail. The federal government has no business funding private business. And that goes for banks, insurance companies, wall street, auto makers, and individual mortgages. Then you can take on the increased tax burden when unemployment rockets to 10% overnight. This LOAN (i.e. NOT FREE MONEY), leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but it will cost far less out of my pocket now than it would if they collapsed. Sometimes being unfair is what keeps life good for the masses. | ||
| Xl1200r |
So the true hourly salary for a union worker is about $55. I still think that's high when you consider everything. I really don't mean to take away from anyone in this industry, but overpaid is overpaid. Explain to me how a job like an auto mechanic is any different than an assembly line worker? If anything, a mechanic is worse off seeing as how they have problem solve on the spot (not doing the same thing day in and day out), and they have to buy their own tools (some guys at our shop owned over $200k in TOOLS that they paid for, out of pocket). And yet, these mechanics, at least the ones where I was working a few years ago, are lucky to make half what a UAW worker makes, and we were a pretty high-paying shop. That rate may only be $10 higher than non-union worker at Toyota, but I think that's only so they can attract workers, and you might see wages drop for all of them with the new UAW agreements. | ||
| Davegess |
The USA still is a powerful manufacturing country BUT if we continue to think and say that manufactuing does not matter we, along with the auto industry will be toast. We cannot remain a world power if we can't make stuff. Do you think China will provide us with tanks and guns in the event of a war with them? Sure low profit low tech items can move offshore but the last I looked a modern car was just a bit more complicated than a frying pan. This bailout is a lot like the AIG one, in reality a very structured, very controlled bankrupcy. It is an effort to avoid the economic diasaster that a collapse would precipitate. GM and Chrysler have made many mistakes to get to this point. Ford is leading the way out of the jungle and GM has shown signs of beginning to figure it out. Chysler is lost. BUT if GM and Cherysler file for bankrupcy in the next few months I fear we will enter a full blown depression with dire consequences for all of us. Why do you think the governments of Japan, China, India, Korea, Mexico, etc and helped auto manufacturing get started and grow in their countries? Perhaps they realise just how important this industry is? And don't get me started on the workers making too much money. I am very disappointed that unions stopped being agents of change and become defenders of the status quo BUT why shouldn't a factory worker make enough money to live in a nice neghborhood and raise a family? This has been the American way for 100 years. If all we want is to be able to buy stuff cheaper than our children and our children's children will be working in sweatshops making toys for the Chinese. We need a solid manufacturing sector that makes stuff better than the rest of the world. Then we can pay the workers decent money and we will have a vibrant diverse economy. |
