| Author | Message | ||
     Gentleman_jon |
Three excellent books on the subject are: Reg Pridmore; Smooth Riding the Pridmore Way. Nick Ienatsch: Sport Riding Techniques. Lee Parks: Total Control These authors are successful road racers and experienced teachers. The books are available in paper back from Amazon: | ||
| B00stzx3 |
Thanks jon, I will be checking Amazon and half for those. Would a library have them also> Badlionsfan- I didn't mean to sound like a douchebag, I looked back and I wasn't articulate. I can't imagine a passenger falling on my part, suck big time. | ||
| Patrick2cents |
just to point something out.... countersteering works because when something acquires angular moment (ie it is rotating and has mass) it will transmit forces applied to it at a 90 degree angle... so by leaning the bike over... doesn't mean that you can't lean the bike by shifting your weight, it is just far easier. oh and a side note, this will work better with bikes that have smaller rake angles (ie sport bikes) because it will transfer a greater percentage of your pressure on the bars to leaning the bike. this is one of several reasons that bikes like buells are a little less stable, but more manueverable then, say, a chopper. | ||
| Jaimec |
Don't forget books by David Hough. His books are far more applicable for STREET riding than the aforementioned books above... | ||
| Borrowedbike |
And Twist of the Wrist II. Not exactly geared for the street, but explains the physics. | ||
| Tramp |
Also check out: "The armchair racer" The "read more, ride less" bible for armchair sportriders.... | ||
| Cochise |
All you guys don't know how to ride. When I make a left turn, I drag my right knee. | ||
| Badlionsfan |
Here's a pic on Cochise demonstrating his technique.  | ||
| Reepicheep |
B00, it all sounds weirder then it really is. And truth is, anyone that has ever ridden a bicycle already understands it. Don't believe me? Try this excercise with anyone... even yourself... most people get it right. Close your eyes, and picture yourself coasting down a hill on your bicycle. Now, you are going around a nice relaxed slow right turn. Remember, you are steering by pushing your open palms on the handlebars. Now wave to your friend on the corner. Most people will, correctly, pick up their *left* hand to wave. Meaning that, to make a right turn, they are *pushing* on the right handlebar. Push right to go right. I heard and believed the story about not being able to steer a bike with your body... until I tried it. On the 9sx at least, at reasonable speeds and for gradual turns, I absolutely can steer the bike hands in the air. Nothing approaching at speed, but clearly the body has some measurable and signficant contribution. The reason to move the body on a street bike / track bike, is to move the center of gravity of the bike/rider combo. You can move your body, and trade your position for a greater "upright" margin for the bike. The more upright the bike, the more your suspension can do the job. At full lean, your "suspension travel" is the flex of your sidewall (mm)... rather then the inches of travel your suspension usually has. The job of your suspension is to keep the wheels on the road, and when you are out of travel, that stops happening, and crashola. Not doing that (after reading "The Pace" and taking it a little too literally) was why I had my first low side on the M2. I hit an invisible divot and the rear tire lost the road... 10mph bounce, more embarassing then anything. | ||
| Babired |
Bobby, don't want any money! We can practice together counter, body,press, pull steering go spend the money in the book store, if you want we can ride to a book store, not the Power Plant Barnes and Nobles but out of the city. I can put speakers in your helmet and we can practice/coach as we ride and go to a parking lot then practice limited space Manuvers. Then you'll be ready to be the Riding Chick Magnet this coming summer  K | ||
| Dobr24 |
I agree with most of the others on here. Turning is a combination of multiple inputs to the bike counter steer, lean angle, body position, throttle control. You need to either read or get instruction on the most effective technique to turn a motorcycle. Using just body lean may get you around a gentle sweeper, but by itself it will never get you through a twisty section of road at speed. The bike has a lot of forward momentum and its natural inclination is to go straight. It will in fact push to go in a straight line, so you have to push it to turn it in a different direction. The reason you hang your butt off the seat is to keep the bike standing more upright so you can get back on the throttle quicker coming out of the corner. The tire has the largest area of contact when in the full lean position, the problem is when throttle is applied at this position if the rear wheel slips the bike will slide out from underneath you, commonly called a lowside, if the rear wheel then regains traction mid slide the bike stands straight up and throws you over the top, highside (see picture above). Racers slide the rear end of bikes all the time, but I would not recommend this as a matter of safety on the street. | ||
| Tramp |
"Using just body lean may get you around a gentle sweeper, but by itself it will never get you through a twisty section of road at speed." That is not an accurate statement | ||
| Tramp |
...and don't semantically switch "body lean" for foot-roll and knee/hip angulation | ||
| Jaimec |
"Using just body lean may get you around a gentle sweeper, but by itself it will never get you through a twisty section of road at speed." To quote Mona Lisa Vito: "That is dead-on balls accurate." http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/no bsbike.htm http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/09/motor cycle-countersteering-and-the-no-bs-bike/ http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/boating/1 277436.html http://video.aol.com/video-detail/no-bs-bike/14287 97794 | ||
| Tramp |
Ummmm...Jaimec: "dead-on balls accurate" for YOUR skill-level limitations and experience armchair perusal of motorcycle literature.....HOWEVER: Don't allow your own inability to perform this maneuver, coupled with cited literature, preclude the experiential veracity of those of us who can, and have, in fact, maneuvered trhough twisties at a good rate of speed without our hands anywhere near the bars. Perhaps your empirical gap is a result of your short-sighted idea that any on-push/pull non-handlebar input riding employs, exclusively "body lean", as opposed to other input modes I've exampled in above posts. When we criticize that which we don't understand, we're really only criticizing ourselves.  | ||
| Spike |
Educate me- if you're not touching the handlebars what inputs are you giving the bike that result in something functionally different than body lean? | ||
| Jb2 |
Simple test. We took a co-workers 10-speed out on the lot. He rode it with arms folded and did circles and some slight back and forth turns as if cones were set up. Bottom line the bicycle did NOT turn until enough lean was gained that the front wheel turned into the lean. We locked the front wheel via the handlebars in a straight position and the bike did not turn with lean only. I don't know why a motorcycle would be any different. I suspect if you locked the front wheel in a straight position it would not turn. A rider can initiate the turn with lean but if the front wheel cannot be steered the bike will not turn. Period. I believe that Keith Code and Jaimec are correct. | ||
| Jaimec |
Tramp, I provided articles and a video showing the FACT. Can you back up your claims with more than just personal experience? Or are we to believe you're the only one right and the WHOLE WORLD of experts on motorcycle handling and racing are wrong? | ||
| Jaimec |
Jb2: Just to clarify, the No-BS bike doesn't lock the front fork, it's free to do whatever it wants. When you transfer your hands from the lower bars to the upper bars, you are removing any input to the front wheel through the handlebars and the ONLY influence you have on the motorcycle is through shifting your weight. | ||
| Swordsman |
Er.... how did we get from explaining countersteering to a new rider to arguing over the validity of riding with NO hands...? This is your "back on topic" check.  Tramp, start another thread and post us a video of you and your no-hands obstacle course and maybe everyone will be satisfied. I'd honestly love to see it.  ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on November 13, 2008) | ||
| Jb2 |
Jaimec, I actually caught that but the thing we noticed on our bicycle experiment was the bike would only turn but after the fork flopped into the turn. Caster plays a huge role in keeping a bike straight. Since there wasn't a lot of caster on our test unit we decided to lock the front to prevent the bike from steering itself and found it would not turn with lean as the only input. The links you posted were very informative and cool BTW. Thanks. JB2 | ||
| Cochise |
I don't think the discussion is that the handlebars won't be moving, just that you don't have to move them with your hands to get the bike to turn. The point seems to be, don't rely so much in your arms to do the work that your body can do with less effort. | ||
| Jb2 |
Cochise, Agreed. Locking the bars was an after thought. We noticed that body lean would cause the bike to steer itself. I just wanted to see if "lean only" would steer the bike. It would not. What we found out with our grade school experiment is the same thing that the No-BS bike proved. The front wheel has to steer or be steered to corner and that body lean only has secondary effects on cornering. In the end we can dissect handling down to half-hairs but there's only one thing that counts - the ride. JB2 | ||
| Cochise |
I remember when I was a kid, I would walk beside my bicycle and hold onto the seat, I could make that bike go wherever I wanted it to, just buy pulling or pushing sideways on the seat, without ever touching the bars. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
"We noticed that body lean would cause the bike to steer itself. I just wanted to see if "lean only" would steer the bike." I always thought the shape of motorcycle tires was a factor in this as well. Obviously you can't lock the bars and steer just by leaning. When the motorcycle is leaned to the right, the right side of the contact patch is on a smaller diameter portion of the tire, than the left side of the contact patch. Since the smaller diameter portion doesn't need to travel as fast per revolution of the tire as a whole unit, then the left side of the tire travels faster and "passes" the right side. It isn't a horribly complex idea but I'm doing a bad job of describing it. Just find something cone-shaped and watch it roll - you'll see what I mean. | ||
| Borrowedbike |
Pk, You are correct, and you did a pretty good job of explaining it. B00, Still reading this thread or did you give up when the argument started? | ||
| Tramp |
Swordsman, jaimec- you're still confusing 'body lean' with any/all other forms of inputting pressure other than via handlebars- Many riders can navigate twisties with no hand on the bars. I offer my genuine sympathy to you for your own shortcoming in this regard- It's not a difficult thing to do. Your articles and videos, by lack of presentation of someone simply navigating twisties with no hands on the bars, do not constitute any argument to my point. Maybe put some miles on, lose the skirt, and try it. | ||
| Spike |
I'll repeat my request:
| ||
| Tramp |
and, I'll repeat: Foot roll, knee angulation and hip angulation. Entirely separate from 'body lean'. | ||
| Oldog |
Foot roll, knee angulation and hip angulation. Entirely separate from 'body lean'. Roll your hip and knee into or out of the bike? |
