| Author | Message | ||
     Bomber |
Blake, you're having a logic attack! remember prohibition? remember prohibative insurance costs for muscle cars and and sport bikes? I don't equate EZ's concerns and questions with socialism (which I am NOT supporting). . . but, rather, with a "do it ourselves before someone does it to us" mentality, which I do support . . . again, tiered licenses (for all motor vehicles), like pilot tickets, doesn't seem like such a bad idea | ||
| Ezblast |
Use a search engine and you can pull them up for yourself - several independent studies have found simular results. The Hurt Report, NHTSA reports, etc. True Blake I don't see a ban looming in the distance (just a lot of ignorant people talking about one - lol), however, I do see some concern for people putting restrictions on our riding - thus why the feelers for how people feel about the topic. Later - Got Thump?! Just Blasting on the Dark side! EZ  | ||
| Hootowl |
Blake, You'd be surprised. All it's going to take is for some senator's son to get killed on a Ninja and then...Shitstorm, Begin. He'll push a bill through placing a HP or displacement limit. After all, his son COULDN't have been a bad rider or could POSSIBLY have been goofing around or simply gotten in over his head and froze up like a deer in the headlights when that corner came up on him. Nope, these death machines MUST be removed from our roads. I can hear the impassioned speeches now.... Here's to the safety of our senators' sons (the fortunate ones). edited by hootowl on November 11, 2003 | ||
| Mikej |
There have been several Senator's who have killed bicyclists and all it lead to was an attempted ban on cyclists using the roadways getting in the Senator's ways. Self-serving bastards. The only way to deal with them is to watch their actions while in office and vote them out either during or after their current term is up. I'm still amazed that Feinstein is still in office. The impassioned speeches have already been made. Suzuki backing off the HP top speed race was an indirect result of that. Mandatory felony citation for riding/driving over 100mph in places such as Utah and California is another direct result of such pleas. The ride on a yo-yo gets one dizzy at times, yet round and round and up and down we go, hold onto your lunch folks 'cause they're about to attempt a Walk-the-Dog followed up by an Around-the-World. All in all, all we can do is tell them both what we want and what we don't want, and if we don't get it then vote them out and perhaps run for office ourselves. And I just noticed that Bomber and I both used the prohibition example within three minutes of each other. The sun will surely not rise tomorrow for scots whiskey is doomed to be banned in the mornin'. | ||
| Bomber |
oooohhhhhhh nnnnnoooooooooo! better drink heavily tonight! add the felony laws against automatically-opened knives, aka, switchblades, which I am very interested in and would collect if it were leagal . .. for quite some time, in many jurisdictions, the rap for switchblade posession would far outstrip that for toting a tommy gun . . . all thanks to one movie . . . . One free knife shrpening to the first to post the movie's name | ||
| Hootowl |
U.S.C. TITLE 15 - COMMERCE AND TRADE CHAPTER 29 - MANUFACTURE, TRANSPORTATION, OR DISTRIBUTION OF... § 1241. Definitions As used in this chapter - (a) The term "interstate commerce" means commerce between any State, Territory, possession of the United States, or the District of Columbia, and any place outside thereof. (b) The term "switchblade knife" means any knife having a blade which opens automatically - (1) by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the handle of the knife, or (2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both. I can use inertia to open just about any lock blade folding knife. That makes them all illegal according to this statute. | ||
| Hootowl |
Oh and... Blackboard Jungle | ||
| Nevco1 |
Interesting how the Ken Onion Whirlwind is still legal in many States. Too Bad Wisconsin recently caught on and had them removed from the retail shelves. LOL | ||
| Ezblast |
LOL - I guess you guys have had enough! As for knives - my personal favorite is the Butterfly. The trickiest part is learning to throw one so it sticks - lol GT - JBOTDS! EZ  | ||
| Nevco1 |
Use a search engine and you can pull them up for yourself - several independent studies have found simular results. The Hurt Report, NHTSA reports, etc. Nothing new here. Thought you may have come up with something interesting and earth shattering. Incidentally, the NHTSA report does not accurately address the causes of the accidents buy merit of stopping short of getting to meaningful information which reveals the true cause of the accidents due to confidentiality of medical information, etc. The NHTSA report stereotypes basic information and this is why it is used by alarmists and never results in any legislation. The AMA and MIC have been successful at pleasing the bureaucrats for years with education and safety advertising. That means everything from MSF through disclaimers in their ads about professional riders on closed course, etc. Folks have been getting killed on motorcycles since the beginning. Same with cars, horses, ad nauseum. Unfortunately, for motorcyclists the Hurt report was the first and last real investigation into the matter and a lot of good resulted from it. Not much has been done since which is why there is talk of repeating this exercise. Don't know how far along the process they are with getting funded, but it would result in meaningful information. The accidents not caused by the motorcyclist are just first being brought to the public forefront to make the point that motorcyclists have equal rights to the roadway and to be aware of them. Concerning accidents caused by motorcyclists, you have two types. First, those that are unfortunate but would get almost any of us that neither had the training nor the experience to deal with the situation. Second, those that are considered stupid irresponsible acts. In essence, "suicide by bike." All three types of motorcycle accidents are addressed in existing street training programs. The issues are dealt with both in the classroom and on the range concerning how to identify perilous situations and what to do about them. About the only thing they don't teach you is how to act irresponsibly. Well, at least until Keith Code started his Wheelie School. FYI, I do not consider race schools and track days as irresponsible training unless the race mentality is carried out on public roads. Then I consider it an irresponsible act that may jeopardize the rights of all motorcyclists. In the event that I have not lost you to this point, consider the following: There are already more than enough laws on the books to address these irresponsible acts no matter what you use to commit them (read: motorcycles, cars, bicycles, horses, guns, etc.) If we as motorcyclists were to do anything to help the situation, Other that being shining examples ourselves and supporting the efforts of the AMA and MIC, I believe it would be through peer pressure in the attempt of getting the irresponsible folks to correct their socially deviant behavior. If you belong to an organized riding club, not just an informal group of local riders, I trust that you have been exposed to safety lectures and pre-ride reminders of group riding protocol. If the participants pay attention and adhere to these policies then it should be an enjoyable day for all. However, as we all know, there always seems to be a few bad apples that ruin it for all. Ride safe and be a shining example. Pass out pamphlets at Alice's Restaurant and preach the merits of safety, responsibility, riding within both the law and your limits...Just don't send your dental bill to me. | ||
| Nevco1 |
EZ...Never enough. Is a good topic and now that you have clarified your position, as not promoting more legislation to address the issue, it is worth the effort to explore further. | ||
| Nevco1 |
And MikeJ writes...I'm still amazed that Feinstein is still in office. Yep, me too. One of the biggest anti-gun advocates in the country that packs daily per reputable sources. Too ugly to get raped, to dumb for much else, must be afraid that somebody wants her watch and money. Is way too rich for her typical constituent. | ||
| Bomber |
Hoot . . .right you are! good job . . . ow, all ya gotta do is send me your most cherished edged tool, and I'll put a edge on it that'll have hair jumpin off yer orm, or will stand up to hammerin through wet 2X4s (but not both) knife laws are goofier than gun laws | ||
| Nevco1 |
knife laws are goofier than gun laws And laws concerning weapons of opportunity for self defense are even worse. | ||
| Hootowl |
If I ever find my Kershaw, I'll take you up on that. Jeff | ||
| Ezblast |
So back to topic and rereading this thread I see that a tiered licensing based on skill would be (maybe) an acceptable measure? What kind of skills would they have to demonstrate that would be above the basic test (which isn't much - granted)that would show ability? GT - JBOTDS! EZ | ||
| Mikej |
A skills test that is designed to measure relevant skills that would preclude extreme accidents from happening which was the premiss of this whole thread would only have to be mental in nature. To control squids one has to get them to stop acting squidley. Sort of like getting kids to stop talking during class out of turn, ain't going to happen 'cause as soon as the teacher's back is turned the shennanigans resume. Same with squiddley acts on bikes, as soon as they think they can get away with it the throttle gets whacked. Don't matter if it's rush hour and bumper-to-bumper traffic, a green light is often followed with a raised front wheel, and the upcoming red light is met with tail-lifting front brake applied. The only real way to have a net effect is through first education and then understanding. And no test, no matter how carefully worded, will show more than later experience which students learned and which ones simply passed the test. Tiered licensing doesn't stop teenagers from drunk driving, and that is exactly what they have in many cases (no passengers in some regions for a set period of time, no driving after dark, and so forth), and it doesn't stop a moped rider on a college or high school campus from jumping off a sidewalk curb in front of an approaching bus. 15 years old and you can get a learner's permit with parental/guardian/court approval. 16 years old you can get a drivers license. In some regions 14 years old will get you a scooter/moped endorsement. ( We won't bring Q and his 14 year old attainment of a bike endorsement as he's an exception to the rule, and is well over 14 by now. ) Beyond that it all comes down to experience and personal restraint and personal responsibility. If you can't trust someone to be personally responsible then you can't trust them at all. You can't blame the vehicle for the actions of the person behind the controls, period. 'nuf said. bye. | ||
| Bomber |
hoot -- done and done, sir . . .kershaw's made some nice pieces over the years | ||
| Ezblast |
Hell - I can count the people I trust on one hand and still have 3 fingers to hold that stick - lol - they tried that arguement vs. gun laws - total wash. I'm not trying to save all those lives - there will always be a percentage (and that percentage will always be higher because motorcycles are more dangerous)of stupid fatalities - young and old, however, if you had to display a certain group of skills on a superbike to ride that bike - would that be a bad thing? Todays student will learn on a 250cc to 500cc bike at the MSF course (if even lucky/smart enough to opt for it) and then you are saying he/she/me/you are prepared to hop on that Gixxer/Bussa and go - all the skills we needed already imparted to us? YOU need to put that stick down and really think about it - lol Show me you know how to ride it and I would give you a license to ride it (how you learn is a different thing all together - though slightly related). Got Thump?! Just Blasting on the Dark side! EZ  | ||
| Mikej |
I have seen several people hop on a Buell after riding a Harley and almost dump it in the parking lot due to the turning radius. Unless you get model-specific there is no way a generalized test will reduce accident rates. The only way a graduated test will do anything is if you have to get certified for each specific brand and model and configuration of bike you intend to ride. You can take some guy who learned to ride on a Vincent Black Shadow and "graduated" to a 'busa without a laydown in his entire life and throw the bum onto a moped and watch him crash it in the parking lot. Skills and abilities tests have to go both up and down and sideways if you want to have any verifiable measure. And no, I'm not angry nor agitated, just trying to be realistic with this. There are enough tests, you can't test out stupidity nor irresponsibility, you can only hope to ensure some minimum level of knowledge of the rules of the road. Parallel question: should automotive driver's licenses be type specific as to stating if someone is allowed to drive a manual shift and/or an automatic transmission car? There are many arguments to state that there should be due simply to my direct observation of people leaving automatics in drive and walking away when they've always driven stick shifts, and others trying to come to a stop in a manual tranny car without using the clutch when they've only driven automatics. I just recently took my truck in to get smog checked, manual tranny, and of the two attendants there only one knew anything about driving a stick shift, the other one asked me how while I stood in the waiting area watching the other guy lug my truck way down on the dyno/sniffer rollers. I personally would like to see some competancy testing for computer store clerks that would include a bit of recent history knowledge as well. But I don't think it will ever happen, and I'll always be stating that AutoCAD has little to do with driving a Cadillac and a 486 is not a new Chevy V-8 engine. Even if someone is able to pass some minimal test before they can take a new bike out of the dealership's parking lot, that is still no guarantee that they are "prepared" to ride it. How many people pass the driving portion of their driver's license test and then proceed to get into an accident? Probably close to 99% of people involved in automobile accidents have passed a driver's skills road test. I'm not saying to do no testing, but a tiered scheme is not the answer. Besides, doesn't California already have a tiered licensing scheme? I thought they had one when I still lived there but due to my prior bike endorsement I didn't need to play that game. I could be wrong, and probably am. And exactly what "stick" are you referring to? I gots no stick, honest, trust me.  | ||
| Nevco1 |
Ok, so if I get this right, EZ proposes that somewhere in the process, one takes a course on the bike they buy. In the event they buy a super bike before getting their initial license, at some point before graduation and receipt of license, they should be tested on the range with that bike. If I were to extend that a step further, a person would have to go back and re-qualify every time they buy a bike in either some nebulous faster category or different type category(standard vs cruiser vs sportbike). Did I get that right? Regardless, please elaborate. Not sure I agree, but at least this is getting interesting. I sort of like the idea of continuing education. Prefer it to remain voluntary, but this may lead to something. | ||
| Ezblast |
You got me thinking - most of what we have talked about has to do with levels of skill and the lack there of. Perhaps the level of skill needed to ride these bikes is not being tested for and should be. A revamping of the DMV testing system? What skills are they missing in testing and how can they be developed? Got Thump?! Just Blasting on the Dark side! EZ | ||
| Nevco1 |
The only DMV test I ever took was in So Cal so my experience is limited in that respect. The course was small, tight and crawl-speed technical. Would have made a good skateboard course but really didn't apply to any real street skills other than U-turns and feathering clutch/brake. Folks on bigger cruisers and touring bikes were dropping them constantly and as a result each DMV modified the test procedure. The dealers helped by loaning smaller bikes to take the test and to this day you can still find ads in Free2Wheel where the person with a small test bike will meet you at the DMV for a quick hands-on before you take the test. The MSF course is much better than what I just described as it teaches and tests for real world skills. I like the idea of them teaching on smaller bikes but might recommend that the final skills test that substitutes for taking the DMV skills test be done on the riders own bike. Proof of registration required. As the MSF course is also used to introduce new folks to motorcycling that don't yet own a bike, perhaps the certificate could be stamped "Not for DMV Use" or something to that effect. In essence, a graduation certificate but not a DMV endorsement. A possibility might be for the States to require the basic MSF certificate for obtaining a learners permit and a second certificate obtained on the riders bike for the actual endorsement. Don't know if all States have both levels but it might be a consideration. Just an idea. Still trying to figure out a way to classify bikes for testing that makes any sense. Biggest problem is most bikes don't develop any personality until you get them up to speed and the existing courses don't/can't accommodate that. | ||
| Mikej |
"What skills are they missing in testing and how can they be developed? " Let's look into this just a little bit and see what we can see.... 1. Case one is where some person buys a new 'busa, takes it out on the first tank of gas, and tanks the bike into the tailgate of a pickup on the freeway. Pickup speed 65mph, bike speed at time of impact 135mph, rider gets face cleaned by truck's windshield wipers because it was also raining at the time and the rider flew through the windshield from the rear. A. A test to gauge for this would require safe riding in the rain, how to judge closing gap distances and complementary speed adjustments to avoid a collision, evasive maneuvers once a rider realizes their speed reduction will not be sufficient to avoid an impact, and education that riding in the rain without a helmet or eye protection makes it difficult to see clearly. Me thinks this case may be untestable. 2. A guy buys a 900RR, takes it out on a sunny day with a few friends up into the hills for a run down Mosquito Ridge Road prior to the road being allocated a specific sheriff. Bike had 500 miles, tires scrubbed in to the point of the Dunlop man is nothing but his feet left. Rider follows one friend into a downhill corner posted at 15mph while the bikes are decelerating from 85mph to approximately 55mph at the point of entry. Lead bike trailbrakes into the corner further scrubbing off another 20mph by the apex and hugs the inside line tight but kicks out a 3" diameter rock further into the lane. The 900RR rider manages to momentarily lock up the rear tire trying to scrub off additional speed to avoid hitting his friend in the rear, counter steers slightly to avoid tire to tire impact, and bobbles the 3" rock with his front tire while at full lean and still doing about 45mph. Front end of the 900RR washes out and heads to the guard rail (one of few on the road), bike scrapes and rolls and eventually comes to rest down the lane with the bike sort of lodged under the railing. The rider is found about 300' down the cliff, his protective riding gear ensures it will be an open casket funeral. A. A test for this would entail road racing skills, a track school, a full education on why the road is for riding and the track is for racing, and a surviving rider to actually learn from his mistakes. The problem is the cost of track schools and the time and hassle of going to a track vs simply heading to the twisties outweighs one's desire to follow the path of least resistence. Experience and personal restraint is what teaches one how far it is safe to push the envelope on public uncontrolled roadways and how much margin for error is required to leave feasible exit options open for unplanned evasive manneuvers (sp?) such as a falling rock in the road or a rusty muffler in the bend or a squashed skunk freshly plastered in the tire track right at the apex of a blind hairpin turn. If you look at each magnified case you will often find rider errors in judgement, and will often find unexpected situations. The recent Arizona death writen of on the site here recently point this out clearly. No insult or disrespect intended on my part, but each wreck was avoidable in that case. The cases where riders impact deer or are hit by unyielding motorists or drunk/drugged drivers are less easy to judge and basically impossible to test for. Yet these other cases are also often pointed to as showing how "dangerous" bikes are. Education is the key, and personal responsibility and personal restraint are vital. Beyond that you takes your chances and hope you return as you left. Training, not testing, is the only thing that will help one to acquire the necessary experience, and the training does not have to be formal or in a classroom or track setting. Each time we ride, even just to get a soda from a local store, we are in training if we are aware. Always be open to learn, and willing to accept and learn from things when things go wrong. An IQ test does not test for stupidity. A graduated licensing system is no guarantee of improved rider safety. If you really want to do something that will do some good then promote free MSF type classes on a walk-in basis, sort of like an AA type of meeting. "Hi, I'm Mike, and I'm a motorcyclist, I'm here to learn". As it is the MSF and RidersEdge classes are often full, costly in both dollars and time, and beyond that I have no input as I've never taken one. I would like to see their printed materials available at local libraries and such, that may do some good as well, and maybe have a few copies sitting in customer waiting areas for people to flip through. Hope all this drivel helps some. Any comparison to my examples to real events are meerly coincidental and purely accidental and anecdotal. YMMV. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Great scenarios...They read like the cops draft report before he cleans it up for submission. LOL Now any suggestions on how to teach or reinforce responsibility and the potential outcome for one's actions... Is beginning to sound like the impossible dream, eh? | ||
| Mikej |
You have to start young. Make it mandatory that everyone learns to ride a bicycle before they start kindergarden and include bicycle safety as part of the curriculum in school. In elementary school provide secure parking for bicycles and promote the concept that bicycles should be operated as vehicles on the roadway and not as toys on the sidewalks. This will have an ancilliary effect on the driving public that two-wheeled vehicles are in fact vehicles with the same rights and responsibilities on the roadways as other vehicles. Again, include bicycle use and operation as part of the daily curriculum. Around the age of 7-12 start including mopeds and scooters and motorcycles into the mix. Include field trips to dirtbike parks. Educate them further about responsibilities and the differentiation between riding on the street vs off-road or on-track. This would be a good time to include coordination events such as BattleTrax. In Junior High all students should be encouraged to ride bicycles to school, and should be encouraged to ride them as legitimate vehicles on the roadways. In High school all students should be encouraged to ride bicycles or whatever motor-powered vehicles as their local regulatory agencies allow for them to use. Again as safe legitimate users of roadways. As they get into the later years of high school and start driving cars, by this time they should be well indocrinated in seeing two-wheeled vehicles as users of the roadways and should be scanning for them and should be able to properly judge their approaching speeds as the new car drivers learn to grow their driving skills in traffic. In college and on university campuses motorcycles should be allowed to utilize all parking available to cars, which is not the case in places such as the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee where motorcycles are strictly not allowed to park in car slots and must either get a motorcycle permit and park in specifically designated motorcycle spots or park off campus. Again, bicycles and motorcycles should be operated as vehicles, and any bicycle or moped or scooter usage on sidewalks should be yielding in nature to pedestrians. As these students begin to mature and enter adult lives and responsibilities they should be well indocrinated into a two-wheeled society and car/bike/motorcycle accidents should begin to greatly decrease. Furthermore, there should be no special allowances for politicians to get out of tickets or out of responsibility in accidents. Same rights and responsibilities, regardless of social status or wealth or favoritism. You have to start young, and allow time for it to work. There is no easy path nor quick fix. Oh, one more thing, it should be a mandatory death penalty to file frivolous lawsuits, and insurance should be based on concrete facts and not on irrational emotional statistical interpretations. Okay, my fingers are tired, I'm done. Now go teach a pre-schooler to ride, and to ride responsibly as well. ps, I might have snuck a few pet peeves in there, sorry about that but I was moving too fast to avoid them and the brakes are bad on this keyboard and I almost hit the coffee cup on one Return-key corner. At least I avoided putting an elbow into the carrot cake, that would have been messy, where's an elbow slider pad when you need one. Okay, time to unbuckle the seatbelt on the chair and negotiate a walk down to the boys room. bye. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Professor MikeJ... Thank you for your dissertation on the fundamentals of responsibility. However, it is with great sorrow that we must advise that the responsibility training techniques you hold dear are no longer either legal or vogue without placing the parents in danger of arrest for child neglect/endangerment. Therefore, it is the committees decision that the Government shall ban all motorcycles capable of breaking the law in any way shape or form. Additionally, we will require that all prospective riders be quarantined for a period of no less than 5 years for psychological evaluation in reference to their fitness to possess and/or ride a legal motorcycle. Lastly, prior to issuance of an operators permit all prospective candidates will be required to participate in closed course competition and consistently make podium finishes without incident for a period of no less than 10 years. Thank you for your concerns but you and only a few others still harbor the idealism that allowed all the social problems Amerika has ever faced prior to this administration. Your punishment for being an individual will be to spend the rest of your natural life in a forced labor camp isolated from the rest of society. Could this ever happen in America? Naaa...No way. | ||
| Ezblast |
Perhaps higher speed testing of certain skills is in order - consider that almost all examples used involved higher speeds. GT - JBOTDS! EZ | ||
| Nevco1 |
Do any States have actual "on road" motorcycle testing like they do (er, maybe did) for cars? If yes, how do they do it? Also, are there any deviations from the norm concerning MC accidents? | ||
| Mikej |
If parents can be counted negligent for encouraging their children to ride in a safe and responsible manner, then they can also be counted negligent for allowing their children to take swimming lessons. WaterWings for Everyone. (In case you missed my backstroke headbanger example in an earlier posting.) EZ, If you want low speed examples I can make up some of those too.  |
