| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
http://motorcycledaily.com/03june03ducatidesmo.htm | ||
| Vr1203 |
Too bad about the fairing,at least its not cookie cutter Jap/Triumph. everything else is awesome! I really like the wheels!Have they been looking at my bike!?  | ||
| Doctorgorpon |
Isn't amazing in that less than three years the Italians can come up with a new engine and then present it to the consumer market. Why the hell Buell/HD can't do this is beyond me. And please don't tell me the XB engine is a new engine. It's just an evolution of an existing design. V-Rod engine, much too heavy for a sportbike application. What does Ducati have that Buell doesn't? A real race program for one. Ball's for another. | ||
| Imonabuss |
It ain't on the consumer market yet, and if it makes it, it sure won't sell at the price of an XB or in volume. What does Ducati have that Buell doesn't? Try money, Doc. Cashola. Balls don't build MotoGP bikes. | ||
| Blake |
Gorp, It's just a computer generated image. I'm still chuckling at the throngs of enthusiasts hailing the new KTM liter sportbike. Two years later... still no where to be seen. | ||
| Tripper |
That engine has already finished on the podium in the worlds toughest racing class. Not a minor feat. | ||
| Rocketman |
So Buell is still treat like the bastard child of Harley Davidson then, a not so poor company? The Italian's have always had balls (or is that coco's) when it comes to motorcycles. Funny how Ducati never seem to get the credit they deserve from some people on Badweb except the one where we get reminded it's American money that saved their arse. Rocket  | ||
| Doctorgorpon |
Hey Imonabuss: I said "present" it to the consumer market, I didn't say sell it. If only Buell had something better than the current line of sub 90HP bikes currently available to present to me, then maybe I might be more enthusiastic about the company. Does Ducati have deeper pockets than Harley Davidson? I don't think so. Just compare the market capitalization of the two companies. Compared to the Japanese and Harley Davidson, Ducati is a very small company. They have been making monsters for a decade now and boast how over 100 000 have been sold over the last ten years. In contrast HD made over 300 000 bikes last year alone. What Ducati has in spades over HD and Buell is a commitment to racing that breeds innovation in their products. Please, lets not talk about fuel in frame as innovative. I own six motorcycles. Two of them are Ducati's. Ever since I bought my Buell five years ago I have been cheering Buell. I was so enamoured with my Buell that I even raced it to prove the bikes mettle versus other more competitive machines. It always put a big smile on my face when people at races would come up impressed with the bike and it's performance at the track. But let's face it, a 100HP (measured at rear wheel) Buell is expensive to build and not particularly reliable. As long as Buell is tied to the 45 degree air cooled twin, Buell, no matter how innovatative the rest of the bike may be, will always be a pleasant road bike that will find a market with particlular iconclasts. As far as price goes, if a V4 Ducati that looked as good as the one in the picture is, showed up at my dealership for under $30 000.00 I know that I would buy one. I am fortunate that I can do that. There will come a time when Harley will step up to the plate and give Erik Buell a blank cheque to build a new engine. How far off in the future I don't know. But believe me, when we finally get the clean sheet design that Buell deserves I will certainly be in line to purchase it. Until then I'll just keep waiting and waiting and waiting. In the meantime I'm looking towards the Moto Guzzi MG01. | ||
| Court |
>>>Ducati is a very small company. That's true. And, as such has a much greater capacity to direct serious amount of funds to a specific program. It's a bit unfair to compare absolute revenue of a firm to perceived innovation. Imagine the drain (yes, I know they'll make money on the deal) it's placing on HD just to do the 100th Anniversary deal. Imagine, during this year, trying to divert attention to a new, unique and untested engine design. Toss in the difficulties Buell experienced with the recall problems. Now factor in that Buell has transitioned from that recall period to building a motorcycle that is a serious threat to become the MOST RELIABLE motorcycle ever made (er, that's any brand, not just Buell) as consumer data accumulates on the XB chassis. Recall (no pun intended) as you make that comment about the fuel in frame, that the location of the shock received similar jabs from the pundits until folks like Honda introduced it on "innovative bikes of the future". Finally, we shall an affinity in Ducati. I have the pleasure of speaking from time to time to local groups on the history of the firm. Several of my good friends from Motociclisimo have provided me with a wealth of information. I find Ducati's roots in consumer electronics, capacitors and such to be fascinating. In addition the company, like Buell, has proven eminenty resilient. If you own 2 Ducati's then you recall the period, not long ago, where you couldn't buy one single part from Ducati...they'd been cut off by their suppliers. Buell delivers late folks are in an outrage, but few recall when a Ducati clutch lever was a 14 month item. Buell has proven innovative and willing to listen to those folks who buy/ride their bikes. We know from the spanking the bike Aaron just built is capable of dealing the screaming I4 products, proving that Buell is on the cusp of eliminating that disparity. As innovative as Buell has proven to be, I doubt they've ignored the powerplant as they look at the XB package. I also doubt you'll get one plug nickel, in the year of the 100th, to fund what could be a risky dance with innovation. Court | ||
| Rocketman |
Now factor in that Buell has transitioned from that recall period to building a motorcycle that is a serious threat to become the MOST RELIABLE motorcycle ever made (er, that's any brand, not just Buell) as consumer data accumulates on the XB chassis. What does this statement mean exactly Court? for example, and I haven't a clue but let's assume the Goldwing is Hondas most reliable bike even going one step further assume that not one in the last five years had an owner report back to base with a problem, then lump said reliable wing in with ALL other Hondas reliable or otherwise, the statistics will be against Honda as a company even though said Wings are utterly RELIABLE. I don't see what you're getting at. In the UK I know personally of one XB9R that suffered major gearbox failure in its first week of ownership. MCN's loan bike had a shock bolt come loose and two, yes two drive belts snap under normal use and they reported oil leaking from the swingarm too. I was told of another XB9R that suffered a gearbox problem but can't confirm that one though the source is reliable. Then of course there are those here on Badweb that suffer problems with their XB's are there not? Not to want to open up any serious debates here but I'm giving it serious thought about owning an XB9S but the reliability thing would just freak me if it all went pear shaped again. I'm gonna take a lot of convincing that's for sure. Rocket | ||
| Tripper |
And the Griso. Guzzi is coming to life.  | ||
| Kevyn |
Hmmmm, Guzzi? Triumph? Ducati? Very exciting stuff! Will that goose fly with the Monsters? Where's our American competition? 2004? 2005? | ||
| Jim_witt |
I'm giving it serious thought about owning an XB9S but the reliability thing would just freak me if it all went pear shaped again. I'm gonna take a lot of convincing that's for sure.  -JW:> | ||
| Msetta |
Buell may have to deal with the controlling influence of HD, but I don't think that and the 100th anniversary is a sufficient excuse to cover for the lack of a new and innovative engine. It's not like this is a recent issue, this has been one of the bigger complaints about Buell's for a long time. And I am not talking about giving Buell's a watercooled engine that takes away from the high tourque fun that we all enjoy, just something that could make the great chassis design even better. If anything, Ducati takes even bigger risks because it does not have this big mother company to back it up if it fails! HD may not support Buell the way we want it to, but it has come through when Buell has been down, something Ducati never had. Setta | ||
| Thunder |
Tripper... Greetings.. Hey I need to call LETKO and see if they have received Multistrada 1000DS.  | ||
| Tripper |
Test rides are being advertised, and Letko always has plenty of demos. Take the fairing off that Multistrada and you might have something there, it is getting rave reviews. | ||
| Ray_maines |
The Duc might be the best bike in the whole wide world for all I know, but it is seriously UGLY. The new KTM Adventure 950 thing is the only bike I can think of that might be worse. | ||
| Kevyn |
I like this one  | ||
| Jim_witt |
Na this is UGLY!  -JW:> | ||
| Tripper |
It's Shazam and V2Win!  | ||
| Snowdave |
........and I believe we have a winner to the question of the ideal engine to start a sportbike project with. 160hp V4! Now if only it materializes. | ||
| Steve_a |
The Ducati V-4 engine is undoubtedly lovely. I just talked to Kevin Cameron, who visited Ducati's race department about two weeks ago. He saw a lot of internal hardware, and estimated (they weren't talking specifics) the piston diameter at about 84mm, which gives a bore-to-stroke ratio of about 2-to-1. Lots of rev and power potential there. However, this is a race engine. Will we see a street version? Maybe someday, though I'd be surprised if it's out 12 months from now, unless that's just the announcement date of a production run of 200 machines at about $40,000 to $50,000 apiece. That would follow past Ducati marketing practice of relying on their best financed admirers to help pay for new machine development. In any case, any production Ducati V-4 will not be playing near Buell XB price points or manufacturing volumes. Also, Rocketman just brought up the point of Buell XB belt failures. Those reported in English magazines were traced back to a shop that changed tires without following recommended procedures, and rather brutally forced the belt over the rear sprocket. All Gates belts suffer from a certain delicacy when it comes to mishandling, but there are answers to that problem -- see the August issue of Cycle World for a full explanation. Also, Buell internal warranty numbers (I'm told) and outside surveys indicate that XB reliability is world-class; certainly postings on this board don't indicate any extensive problems with XB models. | ||
| Blake |
Steve, Way cool of you to share that info here. A 2:1 bore to stroke ratio! I am probably exposing my shameful ignorance by asking this, but I've never been too proud so... Is that the first modern moto engine to breach that figure? On the belt handling issue... we posted the applicable Buell Service Bulletin here a while back. Great to know CW is helping to get the word out. I just re-upped my sub. More Buell articles please? ![:]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) Thanks again. | ||
| Doctorgorpon |
I would like to address a few issues. Court said, "It's a bit unfair to compare absolute revenue of a firm to perceived innovation. Imagine the drain (yes, I know they'll make money on the deal) it's placing on HD just to do the 100th Anniversary deal." Do you mean all those fancy decals that say "100th anniversary"? Court said, "If you own 2 Ducati's then you recall the period, not long ago, where you couldn't buy one single part from Ducati...they'd been cut off by their suppliers. Buell delivers late folks are in an outrage, but few recall when a Ducati clutch lever was a 14 month item." I have a '74 750GT/SS that has been stone reliable since it's full restoration 5 years ago. Most of the parts I purchased in Australia so I can't really comment about the parts availability thing locally. 20 000 miles to date and just valve adjustments and oil changes since then. My 996 (my regular trackday bike) has also delivered the same reliability with just oil changes, valve adjustments, and brake pads to keep it going. The only fault I've had with the 996 was with the rear wheel which developed a crack in a spoke but that may have occured during two crashes which the bike incurred. Valve adustments are performed by me and the process takes about 45 minutes per head. In contrast my '98 Buell has had two engine rebuilds (performed under warranty thank God) three header pipes, three warped front disks, the shock recall obviously but lets not count that, some tranny upgrade, some cracked bodywork from all the shaking, the rear isolators were replaced twice, rocker box issues where dealt with two or three times and I guess that's about it. First engine rebuild was because a piston ring self destructed and cut up the engine internals. Second rebuild was a flywheel issue that took the bike out for three months. It was this rebuild where we went with copper gaskets, some hotter cams and headwork to get the bike to where it is now making 102 rear wheel HP. Now to be fair the Buell did go to the track on a quasi regular basis and I think if I had just kept the bike on the street a lot of this work could have been avoided. But on the other hand the 996 makes 122 rear wheel HP has been hammered harder and hasn't had any major failures. What's my point? I forget. Oh yeah, reliability. My local Buell dealership has only sold one XB9 and have told me that there has been no issues with it. So I guess Buell is getting much better. Best in the world? I don't care personally. Sometimes when something goes wrong with a bike and you have to peel it all apart it makes you love it a little bit more. If I wanted stone reliablity I'd have a garage full of Honda's. What I got instead is a collection of weird, esoteric stuff that includes a twice rebuilt Buell with 40 000 miles on the clock. Certainly if Buell introduced a new bike next week but told me I'd have to go through all the work and failures that I did with the first bike I would certainly consider it. But not for anything less than a 100HP. | ||
| Ray_maines |
The new Triumph company started 20 years ago, about the time BMC got started. Maybe a better parallel could be drawn between these two companies than BMC vs. Ducati. I offer that a new Speed Triple or Daytona is better than a new XB in every way. Prove me wrong. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Ray... I can prove it. If somebody walked up to me and said I can have a brand new XB9S or a brand new Triple, I would take the XB. There! Prooved it  | ||
| Court |
>>>offer that a new Speed Triple or Daytona is better than a new XB See if you can tie that into the recent bloodletting within the top echelon of Ducati and why Triumph's CEO left to join Ducati. Lot's going on under the surface but fact of the matter is the offerings from all 3 firms (Buell, Ducati and Triumph) are reflecting the benefits of improved engineering and production. I have personal predispositions, but am impressed with all of them. Anybody who points to a "bad bike" today, is likely about to eat crow. Court (still a huge fan of the simple 1952 Cushman 711 Highlander) | ||
| Crusty |
I also have the strongest kind of proof. In '96, I rode to Daytona with the intention of test riding as many different bikes as possible. I was getting tired of the FLHS after 110,000 miles and I wanted something a little sportier, but still comfortable enough for a 600 mile day. One of the bikes that I was most interested in riding was a Triumph. I also was looking at a few different Harleys and even BMWs. Kawasaki wasn't offering rides on the Concourse, which I was also thinking about.Buells Demo area was right beside H-Ds that year, and after I rode a few Harleys, I figured I'd try an S2 out for the hell of it. I liked it. It wasn't perfect, but it made an impression. The next morning, I made an appointment to test ride a Triumph. It was a Major Disappointment. It felt just like the XJ900 I rode during my 2 month trip through Australia. Reasonable power and competant handling, but no personality whatsoever. After I left the Triumph area, I went back to the Speedway, and decided to give the Buell one more try. This time, I rode an S2-T. I was amazed by how much difference 1" taller bars and 1" lower footpegs made. It felt like the bike had been custom designed for me. It felt ergonomically perfect. It was love at first ride. Then I rode an S1, and fell in love with the engine. I told the people working at the site that "next year, you'll put that engine in that bike, and you'll have a real winner". The next year, Buell came out with the S3-T, and the following year, I bought one. I still think it's the most beautiful bike ever made. I still love riding Buells more than any other bike; and I have very little interest in riding a Triumph. | ||
| Lgpch |
O.K. I hope I am not changing the topic here too much, but here is what I think would cure a lot of problems. Make a kit that will plant a Duc Monster 1000 power plant in my M2 frame.... | ||
| Davegess |
Triumph may have started about the same time as Buell BUT they started with an investment of 150 million dollars Buell started with all the cash Erik could scrape together. If that was over 50000 dollars I will eat my XB. Triumph is wonderful but they startedbig and have gotten bigger. Buell started small and is just now getting to be a serious size. |
