| Author | Message | ||
     Saintly |
Ok, so I've been looking at getting a steering damper for my firebolt. I'm shopping for best price, what looks good, etc. I had a bunch of questions, so I decided to call someone that knows quite a bit about it. I learned a great deal about dampers and what fits where & how(Thanks GJ). However, at nearly the end of the phone call, my damper mentor said something to me that really hit home. He said something to the effect of: "I can't see a guy like you just going out and dropping $300 plus dollars on one when you could make most of it yourself." So, with my cheapskate fluids flowing in full effect, I got to it. First I needed a damper! I decided to get a really inexpensive one to experiment with. 10 minutes later, I won an ebay auction for a 2005 GSXR 750 damper. It cost $20.00 The damper arrived today, here's what it looks like:  Next, I needed a fork clamp. This took a bit of thinking before it hit me: I had an old cracked top triple tree from my "03" firebolt. So I clamped it down to the milling table of my bridgeport and made one! Here's what it looks like:   Lastly, I needed a place to mount it to the chassis. Here I copied the designs that I had seen which use the front isolator bolt. First, I removed the bolt and counterbored out the "allen" hole with an end mill like so:   Then I pressed a long threaded jamb nut into the recess:   Next, I welded it to the isolator bolt, leaving approx 5/16" of the hex protruding out so that the isolator bolt can be easily tightened when re-installed into the bike.  The damper's heim joint threads nicely into my isolator bolt and used the entire length of thread.  . Now, I need to install the whole thing into the bike.  Stay tuned for part II...... | ||
| Americanmadexb |
WOW, those are some hairy fingers!!  J/K...nice project | ||
| Wardan123 |
Damn! Gotta' love homemade I dunnit enginuity! My hat is off to you. | ||
| Interex2050 |
Looks great, well done! Curious how it will perform. For aesthetic reasons maybe mount the damper itself to the frame, and the rod/pivotball to the fork. (just like one of the dampers commercially available for the XB) Or is that not possible (fender clearance under compression, length of damper etc...)? | ||
| Dtx |
Well I have seen both ends of the price spectrum now. I was thinking about getting the Ohlins steering damper... | ||
| Old_man |
Did you measure the travel of that damper to make sure it has enough for lock to lock distance where you plan to mount it? From the picture it doesn't look long enough. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Fritz, OUTFREAKINSTANDING!! Can't wait to see the rest of the install. A Jack as suggested, the travel on your ebay special looks a bit short, but you certainly got your twenty bucks worth. PS: I know where you can get a couple of like new isolator bolts, when you ramp up production. Buell in it's infinite wisdom, (read greed), is now selling the bolt and the isolator as a "kit". PPS: You do realize that you have the damper mounted backwards, right? I think it might work a bit better with the damper body attached to the isolator bolt, and the heim joint at the end of the rod attached to that nicely machined fork clamp. At least that is the conventional way of doing it, not that that has ever been that big of a deal to an original thinker like yourself.  PPS: With an Ohlins you can slide the damper body through the damper clamp which has its own heim joint. That would make fitment a lot easier, and of course, it is a better damper. (Message edited by gentleman_jon on March 01, 2007) (Message edited by gentleman_jon on March 01, 2007) | ||
| Saintly |
Got a question to those who have installed dampers. Certainly all dampers have some type of "heim" joint or pivot on both ends right? A damper cannot be "fixed" at one end or it would be "wearing" or "flexing" or worse "bending" its mount as the forks are turned. So how do you overcome the up & down "deflection" or "slop" created by a damper which has pivots at both ends? | ||
| Saintly |
Here's the up & down deflection that I'm talking about:  I realize that the picture is exagerated, as I superimposed the damper body back into the photo, but there is about 3/4" of slop. I'm sure that this will be a problem when the bike goes over bumps. I'm thinking of sandwiching some nylon or rubber washers above & below the damper body heim. | ||
| Tattoodnscrewd |
I have a Storz on my M2 ... it has the same deflection you speak of, I think they all do ... remember this though - when you are riding it will almost always be in constant tension, mine doesn't bounce around at all - rode over 5000 miles after installing it last year. I honestly wouldn't worry too much about it. Only thing I would look at is the joint itself, if there is no lateral slop, I don't think it should be an issue. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
As Brian suggested, it really isn't much of a problem whilst underway. I used to use rubber grommets, the kind that are slotted on the edge to fit into a panel and are about 1/8" thick, but I don't think I do any more. Let me go out and look at the bike. Be right back. Damn. Cold out there in my bathrobe. No grommets any more. My memory just isn't as good as I remember it. I guess I decided at one point that the rubber grommets weren't really necessary. I do use nylon washers between the bolt and the heim joints though. Not sure why - seems like a nice thing to do. | ||
| Bomber |
very nicely done! just what i needed, another idea! | ||
| Teeps |
Curious minds need to know, if this bolt breaks off, does the engine auto-rotate? http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/406 2/261488.jpg | ||
| Saintly |
if this bolt breaks off, does the engine auto-rotate? I assume you mean the front isolator bolt? I'm not sure what it would do, but I hope to never find out. That isolator bolt is quite thick, I suppose it would take quite a bit to break it. I've also never heard of anyone having that happen to them. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
The front isolator bolt does not break. The reasons are three fold. 1. The Isolator breaks first 2, Then when you order a new isolator which should be a recall item because so many of them broke that they redesigned the part, you get a NEW isolator bolt, that you don't need, but have to pay for. 3. The isolator bolt operates in pure tension, probably has a breaking strength of about 5000 lbs or so. Hard to load up that much with a 450 lb motorcycle. Savy? | ||
| Glitch |
does the engine auto-rotate? No. Take a close look at your bike, there's more holding the engine than just that bolt. Also take a look at everything that you have to do to rotate the engine on purpose. I've seen the rear engine mount break and the rider ride the bike back to T.W.O. on some pretty twistie roads. MB-III You would have to break quite a bit of the engine to get the engine to move. I've also seen a bike with just about every engine mount broken and the rider still ride the bike. Ask New12r what all was broken on his bike the first time he broke it. | ||
| Teeps |
Gentleman_jon Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 The front isolator bolt does not break. The reasons are three fold. 1. The Isolator breaks first 2, Then when you order a new isolator which should be a recall item because so many of them broke that they redesigned the part, you get a NEW isolator bolt, that you don't need, but have to pay for. 3. The isolator bolt operates in pure tension, probably has a breaking strength of about 5000 lbs or so. Hard to load up that much with a 450 lb motorcycle. Savy? Yes, but Saintly is attaching a steering damper to it, something it was never designed for. Now there will be a bending load applied every time the handle bars are turned. Using that bolt, to anchor the steering damper, just doesn't seem right to me. But hey, what do I know. | ||
| Glitch |
Yes, but Saintly is attaching a steering damper to it, something it was never designed for. Good point, and I can see why you would be worried about it at first sight. But hey, what do I know. You know enough to ask questions, that's enough for me. I wouldn't sweat the force on that bolt that the damper puts out, it's not that much. The force to turn the bolt just to remove it is far more than it takes from a damper. A damper isn't doing a lot of anything really, just holding the steering from twitches, the twitches aren't very long lived, or very often, if you have your suspension set up properly. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Excellent point, Tom. However, the order of magnitude of the bending moment created by a steering damper is necessarily small - if it weren't, one couldn't turn the handle bars at all. I should say we are talking about a load of 5 or ten pounds over a moment arm of an inch or so. Highly unlikely to deflect the bolt, much less deform it or break it. In actual practice, this mounting system has been used by the LSL steering damper with no reported failures, even though it has been subjected to far greater loads when contacted by the front fender in compression. but that is a different problem, isn't it? | ||
| Starter |
As you have already stated the damper is from a 2005 GSXR. These dampers have been standard equipment on the GSXR750 since the 1998 model. The damper is usually mounted on these bikes to the headlight/fairing bracket and the rod to the underside of the bottom triple. The damper mount is actually quite rigid with a couple of cupped nylon shims top and bottom and seals used for both the damper and rod mounts. http://www.ronayers.com/fiche/300_0268/steering_st em/steering_stem.cfm?man=su&groupid=5750&parent=56 00 I haven't had mine for a while but there was very little play in the whole system from memory. This became a problem when I had a minor off and replaced the headlight bracket with slightly bent unit. Just as another side note, the resistance provided by the damper can be modified by draining it and filling it with different weights of hydraulic fluids. If it doesn't improve your confidence while riding bumpy corner, it certainly will with your wheelies. | ||
| Saintly |
Using that bolt, to anchor the steering damper, just doesn't seem right to me. But hey, what do I know. Teeps, this method is done often in manufactured kits which are sold by companies like American sprtbike & Trojan. That's where I got the idea. You'll notice in my original post that I said that I copied the designs that I had seen on the web.    | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Fritz, Now I am getting more concerned about the problem of the damper hitting the front fenders. The causes for concern are two fold. 1. I just looked at an older post by Al at American Sport Bike who says that LSL recommends dropping the front fork for clearance between the damper and the front fender. Al says this is necessary for the low models, but is a bit ambiguous about the standard model. I don't like the idea of changing the bikes geometry just to provide clearance. 2. Your extended nut will lower the shock I believe, as the LSL install threads the isolator bolt, possibly reducing clearance. On second thought, I guess you could shorten your long nut. Perhaps you ought to take another look at the XBRR mounting system which places the damper in front of the front forks, and above the lower triple. I think Josh Cox may have a photo of the XBRR installation. Kindly keep us informed of your progress. | ||
| Saintly |
Your extended nut will lower the shock I believe, as the LSL install threads the isolator bolt, possibly reducing clearance. On second thought, I guess you could shorten your long nut. Yes, but on my setup it is the rod and not the damper body which resides above the fender. That should allow for ample clearance as the rod is only 10mm in diameter as compared to the 27mm damper body. Also recall, that I counterbored the isolator and pressed the nut into the bolt so that it only protrudes out approx 3/8" total. I've taken seriously your warning about the fender clearance. And before I'm done I will have tested it for interference issues. | ||
| Glitch |
Here's the XBRR one, just in case someone would like to see it for comparison.  | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Thanks Glitch. See how that works, Fritz? that "U" bracket fits on the frame extension that goes between the fork legs, covered on the upper illustration with the number one or five label. Better warm up the Bridgeport! | ||
| Firebolteric_ma |
I don't see where/how the damper will hit the fender!?...seems to be plenty of room in there...am i not seeing this correctly? Al had mentioned to me about possibly lowering the fork tubes also. I saw no need to do this while installing my lsl damper. I had no such advice in the instructions either....I have not had a chance to test drive yet as the snow is still plenty here. am i in for a surprise when i do get it out of the basement? I should say that I have installed the "free spirits extra trail kit" on my bike so the rake is kicked out about 2deg. more than stock. would this be why my damper does not hit the fender?    | ||
| Steve_mackay |
NICELY done saintly. I may do the same thing while I'm creating my TT/Uly/XBR hybrid next month  | ||
| Old_man |
When I installed my LSL damper on my standard XB, I lowered the forks 3/8 inch to be sure of no clearance problems and to provide a flat mounting surface for the fork bracket. This minor change in geometry is not a problem. I use a little less spring preload than before to maintain ride height. This set-up is very stable and steers beautifully. I have no complaints. | ||
| Tx05xb12s |
I've got a LSL dampener on my Scg. At first, I installed it per the instructions without slipping the forks down in the tripple trees. My first ride, the fork tube bracket caught the back of the fender, forcing the front onto the tire, and destroyed about an inch of the front of the fender. My tire was covered in melted plastic. After I replaced the fender and tire, I turned the fork mounting clamp 45 degrees counter-clockwise looking down at the top of the tube. This solved the problem of the clamp catching the back of the fender, but in extreme suspension compression situations, the engine mount bolt end of the dampener was banging the back of the fender and scratching it. Last weekend, I slipped the fork tubes all the way down to where the top is flush in the upper tripple clamp. I rode 200 miles over both twisty country roads and the superslab last Saturday and noticed only slight differences in the bike's handling. I do not believe it slowed down steering inputs enough to consider it any less of a curve carver, but it did make it feel slightly more stable going down the highway. Slightly more "truckish" is the word that pops into my head to describe the difference. Still nimble, but a more solid/stable feel on the superslab. I didn't want to mess with my forks either, but now that I've paid so much for this dampener, I guess this will have to do. The LSL is more attractive than the Storz, but I'm thinking based on my experiences, this isn't a good design for the XB's (especially the Scg). But then again maybe that's just the price of a new front tire and two front fenders talking. I'm not pissed about it anymore, but the directions really didn't address the Scg application adequately. The fork clamp was in the wrong position for the Scg, and merely suggesting slipping the fork tubes down and not stating it as part of the install caused me a couple of hundred bucks in damages. It shouldn't be an optional suggestion. It should be a bold statement that says if you don't do it, you'll tear up front fenders, and possibly kill yourself from a front tire blowout caused by massive overheating from dragging the front fender on it. | ||
| Saintly |
See how that works, Fritz? that "U" bracket fits on the frame extension that goes between the fork legs, covered on the upper illustration with the number one or five label. Jon, I explored that option first after our phone conversation. I did a badweb search and found some good pictures of the RR's damper that someone had taken at an unveiling cerimony(I think). When I tried to incorporate that "U" shaped bracket, I discovered that my "street" 9R had a great deal more wires under the fairing in the area where the RR did not. The RR does not have turn signal wiring, horn wiring, headlamp wiring etc. The damper body, or at least the "jousting pole" as you describe it, would have shoved, stretched, and mutilated a lot of my wiring. I toyed with re-routing, but in the end I just opted to go with the isolator mount. By the way, if you look at Firebolteric's 2nd & 3rd photo's, you'll see that the LSL isolator bolt has what appears to be a longer extension on it than what I've made. I think I'll be ok with the clearance though. |
