| Author | Message | ||
     Thepup |
Not bashing the XB,I have one.M1,FX is the only class they race in,could it be the only class they can pretty much go crazy with mods,a stock XB would be left in the dust against any stock Japanese RR.FX Buell,1350,twin throttle bodies,6 speed trans.M1,a Buell is not the best bike when going strictly by spec sheet,but we know ist about more than that.Use any rational you want,a XB and Buell as a whole would benefit from a watercooled engine as an option. | ||
| Josh_ |
And the SV1000S? FZ1? RC51? Superhawk? You know "All" the liter bikes? | ||
| Anonymous |
Mostly for thepup, but here goes: First, the Revo motor with radiators and water adds about 60 lbs over the XB motor, and with the extra size that the bike has to be to fit it in, and the changes in parts to carry the weight, there is another 20 lbs for a total weight increase of 80 lbs. All this for 8 HP is not a good trade off, boys and girls. Yep, 8 RWHP is the actual difference, check it in Motorcylist and Cycle World. Second, yes we pass the same Arizona shed test as the V-Rod does. Oh, and when you do the hot soak afterwards with the engine shut off, the XB fan drops the engine and oil temperature much quicker. That can't happen with a water-cooled motor unless you run an electric water pump and a fan. Third, a Japanes liter multi engine weighs about 50 lbs less than an XB motor. Pretty amazing where we are with total vehicle weight considering that, isn't it? So who is the world leader in chassis technology? And you get this chassis technology that is not available on Ducatis, Bimotas, MVs, etc. for $8695 in an XB9! Who loves ya, baby?! | ||
| Ray_maines |
"You know "All" the liter bikes?" Yeah, fair question From the same Motorcyclist artical: Honda RC51 ('00) = 489 lbs. Honda VTR 1000F SuperHawk ('00) = 480 Kawasaki Z1000 ('03) = 493 Suzuki SV1000S ('03) = 485 Suzuki SV1000 ('03) = 476 Yamaha FZ1 ('03) = 514 lbs. Aprilla RSV Mille ('01) = 482 Ducati Monster S4R ('03) = 456 Triumph Daytona 955i ('04) = 492 HD 1200 Roadster ('04) = 584 HD V-Rod ('02) = 620 lbs. The Edited Part: Buell XB9R Firebolt ('02) Measured HP = 78.2 @ 7,250, Torque = 61.8 @ 5,500rpm Buell XB12S Lightning ('03) Measured HP = 92.2 @ 6750rpm, Torque = 71.9 @ 5750rpm HD V-Rod ('02) Measured Hp = 109.2 @ 8250rpm, Torque = 74.3 @ 7,000rpm Kawasaki ZX 10R Ninja ('04) Measured HP = (are you sitting down?) 163.4 @ 12,000rpm, Torque = 80.4 @9,750rpm 109.2 -92.2 ____ ~8.0 (Message edited by Ray_Maines on March 01, 2005) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Very cool. Thanks! Is the weight difference only related to the fact that the structural strength components and valve drive parts of the two cylinders can't be shared, like on the inline fours? That much is obvious, are there other issues built into a 45 degree twin? I suppose the 2x force issues for a twin relative to a four for a given power also add weight. My guess would be that you get the engine reliable first, then get it light second, but that is pure speculation on my part. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Yikes! I just did the math anony mentioned. Curb weight, my XB9 is only 6 pounds heavier then an R1? And that's with a 50 lb penalty off the start line. Holy Cow! That is impressive. | ||
| Anonymous |
OK, Ray, we all know Motorcyclist hates Buell, and so do you. Check Cycle World current VRSCR article vs. Cycle World's latest XB12. They got 102 on the VRSCR and 94 on the XB12R. But even if the Motorcyclist numbers were true (freezing sound comes from the ground), 17 HP isn't worth 80 lbs. | ||
| Thepup |
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 08:35 pm: Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) "You know "All" the liter bikes?" Yeah, fair question From the same Motorcyclist artical: Honda RC51 ('00) = 489 lbs. Honda VTR 1000F SuperHawk ('00) = 480 Kawaski Z1000 ('03) = 493 Suzuki SV1000S ('03) = 485 Suzuki SV1000 ('03) = 476 Yamaha FZ1 ('03) = 514 lbs. Aprilla RSV Mille ('01) = 482 Ducati Monster S4R ('03) = 456 Triumph Daytona 955i ('04) = 492 Aprillia RSV Mille Factory 465 122hp 70ftlbs Ducati 999R 460 119 69.9 Ducati Monster S4 461 101 63 Kaw ZX10R 436 164 80 Suz GSXR1000 443 152 78 Yam R1 450 158.9 74.4 I could go on and on,if you want to compare the XB with the bike it is closest to in performance,which would be the 600 RR,the XB's weigh on avg 40 lbs more.With this being said,I like my XB,I am just a realist,flame away,and make sure the ppl who flame at least have a XB. I am getting my info from SportRider (Message edited by thepup on March 01, 2005) | ||
| Thepup |
Anon great info.No 17 HP would not be worth 80 lbs,on the other hand I am pretty sure when the engineers at Buell were done with a Revo,it would be a lot more than 18 more HP and a lot less than 80 lbs. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Those numbers looks suspect. I've seen dynos with close to 92 HP for lightly modded XB9's (race filter, race ECM, drummer). If an XB12 posted that number, then I suspect it needs a tune up, or was not broken in yet, or the owner just doesn't care (elected not to cut the airbox and put in a race filter). I understand wanting to compare apples to apples, but c'mon, any simple mod that can be done in an hour with hand tools and off the shelf parts for under $100 should be done if you care about peak power (and the bike should be broken in before doing dyno tests for publication). | ||
| Reepicheep |
Geesh. I sound like an apologist here. But anyway, I call em like I see 'em. I think you are exactly right about the Revo when Buell got done with it, buy why make 'em start with an overweight cruiser engine? If you are gonna let the big boys play, let 'em PLAY. I've seen what they can do with a motorcycle chassis when allowed to start with a blank sheet, I look forward to see what they can do with a motor under the same circumstances. Why saddle the poor people with another cruiser motor as a starting point? We have that already, and I for one am quite pleased with the result. (cue beetles...) Talkin about a revolution.....  | ||
| Thepup |
Reep,just sticking with a Harley engine,I don't know if Harley would let them go with another engine. | ||
| Ray_maines |
Motorcyclist Magazine might or might not hate Buells but I certainly don't hate Buells. Get that through your thick head. I don't know if a Dynamometer or scale can hate anything, but I suspect not. The only thing I sincerely dislike around here is being crabbed at by some Anonymous half wit that isn't clever enough to sign onto the BadWeB using a made up name and phony profile. At least that way, over time, you would develop an online personality and reputation. I just can't believe that a guy that's smart enough to rise to a position of power and/or knowledge at HDI or BMC can't figure how to set up a new account with a real screen name. Are you the same Anonymous person that posted on this thread yesterday or last week? Are you the same guy that posted on a different thread last month? Are you Anonymous because you're embarrassed to post using your other screen name? The Super Secret, Good 'Ol Boy, Insider, Moderator, I Could Tell Ya But Then I'd Have To Kill Ya, group of people that fosters this phony aura of respect for the "Anonymous" people that refuse to be accountable for their words annoys me. But I DON'T hate Buells! I don't see how quoting weights and measurements from a published source and then documenting that source could be considered Hating Buells. | ||
| M1combat |
" this phony aura of respect for the "Anonymous" people that refuse to be accountable for their words annoys me. " I think you have a facts issue... Anyway, I think if you were to significantly increase the power in a revo, you would also need to make some weight gaining adjustments to the cooling system. I think Porsche did a good job with the revo engine. From what I hear there are some trick metals in it. My guess would be that the cooling system isn't a whole bunch of overkill so you would probably need more coolant and more surface area... Why sacrifice a lot of the brilliant work that went into the frame just to put the wrong engine into it? I could see an argument to design a clean sheet engine that's MAYBE water cooled. I would only think it'll be water cooled if the target performance and packaging requirements demand it. I would almost put money on seeing a re-designed head with maybe four valves and either twin throttle bodies or a shift of the intake port to the corner of the head... Most likely the twin throats. I don't see a revo engine in an XB frame. Maybe a water cooled DOHC... but not the revo. In any case... I had no idea that the current crop of 1000s were 50 pounds lighter than the XB engine. That IS amazing  . Excellent work. | ||
| M1combat |
Oh and by the way Anony - DAYTONA DAYTONA DAYTONA! I'll be standing in my living room at the drop of the green yelling GO BUELL! | ||
| Midknyte |
Step off the NON(s) please They could be janitors in the Buell shop and still have the inside scoop on all of us We've, well most of us anyway, been enjoying a LOT of good information posted here in the past month or two or three. Much more than usual. Don't spoil it for us, eh?  | ||
| Court |
>>>>" this phony aura of respect for the "Anonymous" people that refuse to be accountable for their words annoys me. " Bless thee, if that is the only, and greatest, peeve you have with the internet. Besides....the nerve of some folks...introducing FACTS to our otherwise wildly entertaining debate about HD and the unconscionable power they weild. Courtomous P.S. - the Arizona shed test being passed by the XB was a gimme. | ||
| Blake |
Ray, Rest easy. Anony is no half wit. He may be in a position to take offense at all the carping about Buells needing water cooled engines and comparisons of peak HP, blah, blah, blah. Serenity now? I don't think you hate Buells. Not sure you are much enthused about them either though. | ||
| Cowboy |
After reading all of the above posting I have this to say, I have no ax to grind as I own 2 Buells and a V-Rod (x1) (XB12R) (V-Rod) I feel that we have yet to scratch the surface of the V-Rod motor. It is a great power plant with better things to come. If you dont want to get ran over dont stand in front of progress. I predect a wet Buell in the future. | ||
| Mikej |
"I predect a wet Buell in the future." Rode mine in the rain many times. Nothing wrong with a wet Buell.  | ||
| José_quiñones |
According to that motorcycle bible, Cycle World, the VRSCR's 11.8 quarter mile time is "...barely quicker than the wheelie-happy-but-150-pound-lighter Buell XB12" Those "8" extra hp are pretty strong. Of course the wheelbase explains a lot. By the way Anonymouse, the Discovery channel VROD show mentioned the Dusseldorf test and that HD/Porsche engineers would not be happy until the Revo test engines went past 500 hours. They did eventually. How many hours have the other HD engines (Twin Cam, Twin Cam B, XL, XB) lasted during this test? | ||
| Grndskpr |
there is another 20 lbs for a total weight increase of 80 lbs. All this for 8 HP is not a good trade off, boys and girls. Sounds like a poor choice, but as has been seen before, anons took offense to people who refered to the Buell motors as sportster motors, and if i remember correctly Blake won a pepsi because they were not the same, if history follows suit, why would anybody even think that a Revo and any motor installed in a Buell would be the same as a product from HD, i guess i equate it to saying a sportster 1200 is the same as an XB1200, however HP ratings would say different(as would other things like FI, heads so on and so fourth) I dont mind the Anons posting, actually i think its kinda cool from time to time, but to take cheep shots at people then run is not only done in poor tastes, but inapropriate, sorry thats how i feel, and YES saying Ray hates Buell is a cheep shoot, just because you question whats up and what is happening dosent make you hate Buell it means you have imagination, and wonder at would could happen, thats not a bad thing Comparing the XB bikes to a litter bike, please, if your going to compare weights of a thousand cc rocket to an XB compare everything including HP, i think its time everyone realized that if Buell has decided to make a new class of bike, there is very little to compare it to, an FJR is a litter bike, a gold wing is a litter bike, hell a Vrod is a litter bike, making a comaprison with the XB would be foolish Now as far as a water cooled Buell, why not, you dont have to buy it, it might be needless, but i think Buell needs to expand its line, i think they should make more bike avaliable for a broader amount of people,Not saying it would ever happen, but why cant you have a water cooled bike and an air cooled bike, i mean really could it hurt if there was another bike in the line up, especially if it was different from the XB bikes?????Wonder how HD did it???? don't think you hate Buells. Not sure you are much enthused about them either though Why would you even say this, just because someone wants to express what they like, or what they would like to see, dosent make them lack enthusiasm about Buells, just the line up that is currently avaliable, asking questions or wondering about the future and having a little fun while your at it isnt a bad thing I guess i am not a Buell enthusiast, becasue i am selling my S3, and Buell dosent have a replacment for it Can wait till winter is over, and people can start to realx R | ||
| X1tx |
Personally, I'd like to see Buell start with a clean slate. But first that will require a philosophical decision from The Motor Company as they're wed to that 45 degree twin. That architecture forces certain compromises that drive the weight of the engine to begin with. My suggestion would be to open up the Vee angle, use a stacked transmission, and maybe liquid cooling. EFI, six speed, four valves/cylinder. Get 115 - 125 HP and the XB chassis would really kick. But that would require the chassis be updated to handle the power. Oh well, dream on. | ||
| Gonen60 |
I have to admit, I was one of the people spouting off that the XB needed a new motor. After giving it some serious thought, I have to now admit, I have changed my mind. You either like the Buell with it's V-Twin, air cooled motor, or you don't. At this point, that is what a Buell is, An air cooled V-twin motored sportbike. Sure we can all chat all day about, new motors, six speeds, less weight, chain driven, full fairing (I still want this one) tires, colors, bla bla bla. Bottom line: "It is what it is" If you want different parts and pieces, that you can't mod, buy a different bike. I do think this is a very good thread, and I enjoy reading all the views. The board is serving it's main purpose to the T. | ||
| Benm2 |
There are SV650's out there on the tracks that are near 300 lb (according to RRW) that make LESS power than the Thunderbike Buells (by regulation of hp per pound). The more powerful Buell's lose to those bikes in that class often enough. Considering the direction that Buell seems to be headed in, and the direction this discussion is taking, I'd expect that the NEXT big innovation from Buell will be significantly LIGHTER versions of the 9 or 12 mills. An XB9R with a dry weight of 325 (50lb off the motor....) would be quite a marketing ploy, I would think. Stupid Engineering Semantics: Yes, the air cooled motor would heat up to a point where the heat transfer stabilized. BUT, if that upper stabilization tejperature is high enough, the motor still won't like it. And, the heat up "rate" is linear with no "pause" during boiling of the coolant. | ||
| Lovematt |
I love my Buell...that is all I have to say. If you are going for straigh line stuff then I understand a Buell may not be for you. However yesterday I had a bit of a revelation when I decided to ride both of my bikes (Suzuki SV1000S and Buell XB9R) on the same roads as the weather conditions were to stay pretty consistent througout the day. The Suzuki does a nice job for what it costs and straight line it will top out much faster than the Buell. However in the turns there is no question the Buell is the much better bike. I had some wobbling on the SV in some turns at higher speeds which I didn't have on the Buell at speeds through the same turns higher than the SV. This confirms why emotionally I am more attached to the Buell...I actually feel safer on it. However I would like to keep the SV just because it is different enough (especially after installing the Drummer!) from the Buell. Then again I may not keep it if something really catches my eye from Buell or Harley... I must say that the reliability of the Buell has been a pleasant surprise. I sure hope that continues. | ||
| X1tx |
That's why I don't foresee a V-Rod mill in a Buell. For Buell to use a different engine it would have to be a significant improvement over what they use now. Don't see that coming from the V-Rod. | ||
| Steve_a |
Hmm, those very first V-Rods that the magazines got made more and better power than any we've seen since. They were all part of the same pilot build, and performed as well or better than the 1250 Screamin' Eagle V-Rod that Cycle World recently tested. (Of course, this isn't unique -- Polaris Victories kept dropping power the closer they got to production, and we once had a Japanese 600 test bike whose head wouldn't qualify for a production-based racing class -- something we didn't discover until we sent it to Rob Muzzy for some pre-race prep.) I think this Anonymous, whose word choices seem awfully familiar, is more right than not on the 8 hp differential between a Street Rod and a XB12. Maybe the difference is 10, but it's probably not 15. Measured acceleration is almost identical, and the XB does sacrifice 0-30 mph time because of its short wheelbase. Perhaps the more important thing is this: What would a Revo-engined Buell have to cost? There's plenty of hints out there that the Revo is not cheap to build. I don't think that the Buell chassis is so much cheaper to build that a Revo-powered Buell would be significantly cheaper than a V-Rod. So would a 535-pound Revo Buell at $16,500 be an attractive proposition for anyone on this board? In any case, I think we can count on one thing: if and when Buell does a new engine, it's going to be a lot more interesting and competitive than any version or derivative of the Revo. | ||
| Crusty |
, anons took offense to people who refered to the Buell motors as sportster motors, and if i remember correctly Blake won a pepsi because they were not the same, Roger, it was a bet between Dyna and myself; and I won the Pepsi. In fact, my first words to Dyna, when I met him at the 20th were, "You owe me a Pepsi!" Just trying to keep the facts straight. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Steve Motorcycle online and Road Racing world also were at the VRSCR Press intro. They both dynoed the bikes. Motorcycle online's dyno chart was as follows:  |
