| Author | Message | ||
     Williamscottrobertson |
I have a '00 S3 with 3700miles. When I bought it, I put in a new Duracell HD battery from batteries plus. I cleaned, lubed, and made sure the cables are tight at the frame and the battery. When I go out to start it cold, occasionally it will fire up after a couple revolutions. I always wait until the pump stops and the check engine light goes out before I hit the start button. Today I went to crank cold, for a couple seconds. No start. Cycled the kill to get another prime from the pump. Cranked for about 4-5 seconds and it starts. Hot at the gas station, it cranks right away less than a second. I park at a car show for about two hours, same as first start this morning. Cranking for about 6 seconds, no start. Cycle the pump, crank for 5 seconds it starts. Go to lunch, turn it off and try and fires right back up hot. Eat lunch, come out and have to go through several more seconds of cranking. Also, on these "hard starts" the neutral light goes out for maybe a half second as it makes the first revolution. Then it cranks quickly with no dimming of the neutral light. I'm tempted to shoot a little ether in there when it's cold and see if that helps but I don't want to damage the EFI sensors. I reprogrammed the ECU with a "race program" and reset the TPS. Neither had been done with the Vance and Hines Pipe. I also put in the NGK Iridum plugs. I run those in most everything I have with good results. If it did it every start I could track it down. But cold and hot starts are different. Occasaionally I'll crank it in the garage cold and it cranks 2-3 seconds and fires right up. Any ideas? Maybe return to HD plugs and see if there's a change? | ||
| Harleyelf |
Your plugs are not the issue. I had these symptoms before I went caveman on my '99 S3 and made it into a Sportster by replacing the ignition module, cam position sensor, coil, plugs, plug wires, and injectors with M2 or XL parts. Used a 50-year-old SU carburetor at first, see my profile pic. The probable culprit is the cam position sensor. It's behind the timing plate, which is riveted on. Drill the rivets out, unscrew the plate underneath, remove the timing cup and the standoffs the screws from the plate went into (after marking the position of the timing plate), and pull the sensor out. Does it look fried or smell burnt? DDFI works fine as long as all the components are good. Sometimes I wish I had mine back. But the carburetor has never crapped out in the middle of nowhere as the DDFI did, so I'm keeping it simple. | ||
| Williamscottrobertson |
Ok I may check that if the problem persists. I prefer fuel injection. But I also have a few carb bikes and they are definitely easier to troubleshoot on issues like this. I walked out in the garage and cranked it cold. 2-3 seconds and it fired right up.  It sure was being embarrassing today, cranking on it like an ole hoopdie! All I needed was a squealing belt! | ||
| Williamscottrobertson |
Here's a picture of her at the car show   | ||
| Ducxl |
Hey,nice original Buell! Keep it that way,i ESPECIALLY like the "Breadbox" | ||
| Akbuell |
The calendar can be as destructive to our machines as neglect or abuse. Had a similar problem with my '01 X-1. Through means fair and foul, the solution ended up being the ignition switch. As it aged, it became less 'efficient', and the drop in voltage/amps through the switch caused the starting issue. The start relay may also be suspect; a good place to start. Building a jumper to bypass the ignition switch may allow you to confirm/eliminate it as a problem. As a back-up, I got an aftermarket cover for the starter that has a manual start plunger in it. Both helped. Hope this helps, Dave | ||
| Harleyelf |
Do the dash lights flicker when you shake the key? It can be bypassed to check if it is the issue. Just follow the cable around the steering neck until you find a three-prong connector. Open it up and lay a heavy piece of solder across all three contacts, then plug it back together. Good switches are not easy to find. Al had great ones at American Sport Bike, but that is no longer an option. Starting fluid (ether) will tell you if it is an injector issue, but it sounds like spark to me if it runs well when it runs. | ||
| Ducxl |
Akbuell,correct.I had an ignition switch go bad too.I was aware through these threads and found the red wire at it melted/blackened. | ||
| Williamscottrobertson |
Ducxl, thanks! I'm an original kind of guy for the most part. I've found that most mods don't hold up like factory original stuff. That and the oem bikes hold their value and stand the test of time. Purist I think they call people on that mind set. However, I've got a few modded bikes too and done right, they are darn skippy! Harleyelf, I went out and wiggled the key, no flickering. However, I read up on the ignition switches when I went thru two new sealed eBay batteries that were powerstarHD supposedly 135cca. Both replaced free of charge and neither would make it past a cold crank. Neutral light would go out and then everything would go dead. Battery would register like .5v. Then I read up that the starter circuit actually runs THROUGH the switch. Whaaa?! Sooo, finally broke down and bought a Duracell from batteriesplus for $130. 2 year warranty and it cranks like it's supposed to now. Well sometimes.... | ||
| Williamscottrobertson |
Akbuell, I'd be interested in the starter cover with plunger if you have any idea where you found it. I may search google for that as a backup Will the bike still run without the starter circuit as long as the other contacts work on the switch? Or does a total switch failure render the starter plunger useless? | ||
| Akbuell |
A quick check re the starting issue: If the cold bike turns over and won't start, jump the battery with a battery charger, or from a not-running car. If the engine then starts right away, the extra energy is overcoming the lack of power due to a marginal ignition relay or lack of power through the marginal ignition switch. That was what led me to the switch, with a known good battery and good cable connections. Took me a minute to find the cover, LOL. I (think) I got mine from J&P Cycles catalog, try p/n 381-024. Lots of options as to finish, ect. Virtually any indy shop that works on H-Ds will have one, and an H-D dealer with aftermarket stuff might also have them. And the 'solenoid end cover starter buttons' bypass the start circuit by providing a mechanical method of engaging the starter, instead of using the handlebar switch, wiring, and solenoid. Be advised, the suppliers are pretty proud of their products. Hope this helps, Dave | ||
| Williamscottrobertson |
Thanks Dave! Found one on eBay for $25. May give it a go just to isolate that whole circuit. I started it yesterday cold a couple times. Nothing unusual about the starts. I may try start by replacing the relay if the starter button helps. | ||
| Harleyelf |
Did you check the kill switch? Lots of current passes through there. Is the issue only with the starter circuit or does it die at random times also? If juice is flowing into the starter-switch circuit and not flowing out properly, I'd want to find out why. Perhaps the starter-switch itself has failed? Easy to check... just open the handlebar switch assembly, take it out and jump its wires together. If there's a leak-to-ground in an always-hot circuit, it will manifest itself someday in an inconvenient manner, so it is worth the trouble to find the wire flaw if you have one. | ||
| Williamscottrobertson |
I haven't checked the kill switch. Probably wouldn't hurt to open those switches up and spray them down with Deoxit D5. No problems driving, seems to do fine. Starts fine most of the time. Occasionally though it takes several seconds of cranking to get her to pop off, which was my concern with the post. It just doesn't seem healthy. I may pull the connector for the ignition and spray it down with deoxit also. That stuff is magic. Expensive from the local music store or radio shack but magic on intermittent connection issues on sensitive electrics. (Message edited by Williamscottrobertson on January 16, 2017) | ||
| Harleyelf |
If the starter switch always works, your issue is more likely dirty injectors. I thought you were pressing the start button and getting no cranking. A squirt of magic juice into the switch assemblies won't hurt, and may help. | ||
| Williamscottrobertson |
Yeah harley elf, it cranks over fine when you hit the button (minus first half a revolution when cold dims the neutral light totally out like its straining). Last few cold starts she goes in a couple seconds. Not sure why it intermittently cranks and cranks without firing off. | ||
| Brother_in_buells |
Have you tried starting it with pulled clutch lever? And how low goes the battery when starting? | ||
| Williamscottrobertson |
Yeah I always pull the clutch lever out of habit really. Battery is new shows 12.5v and I put it on a tender overnight about once a month. | ||
| Fb1 |
12.5 volts indicates a significantly-discharged battery. The battery should be kept on the tender full-time. https://www.batterystuff.com/blog/how-to-tell-if-y our-battery-is-bad.html
^ Source: http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/maintenance/battery .htm  ^ Image source: https://www.carid.com/noco/info/information.html (Message edited by fb1 on January 18, 2017) | ||
| Harleyelf |
Your original post says you made sure the cable was tight at the frame. Did you just torque it or take it off and polish it shiny with a file? This all sounds like bad ground strap from the low battery voltage (does it drop a lot while cranking?) to the momentarily dim neutral light. Does the voltage come up above 14 when the bike is running? You might have a charging issue if you are going through batteries faster than usual. | ||
| Williamscottrobertson |
My experience is that battery tenders kill batteries with long term use. They are best charged to full and maintained once a month or so if they aren't used IMO. I'll check the voltage again, while starting and while running. I always thought 12.2v or less was an issue. As far as the ground strap, I just pulled it, brushed it down (my dremel took a dump, I was going to polish it but didn't) brushed the frame and the strap after hitting it with contact cleaner and lubricant. | ||
| Hootowl |
Chargers, yes, tenders, no. Tenders will not overcharge a battery. | ||
| Fb1 |
^ What Hoot said. | ||
| Fb1 |
The best $26.95 you'll ever spend:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Deltran-Battery-Tender-Jr- Junior-Maintainer-Charger-021-0123-12-Volt-Trickle -/252689344817?hash=item3ad5756931:g:dD0AAOSwImRYW Jf9&item=252689344817&vxp=mtr I'm religious about keeping my bikes on Tenders. I ran the original battery in my '06 Road King for 8-1/2 years. I finally replaced the battery not because it developed a problem, I just figured I was pressing my luck a little. I'll even bring the BTJr with me on trips - it's small and takes up very little space - and plug the bike in at overnight stops if I've got access to electricity. Batteries hate mood swings. | ||
| Williamscottrobertson |
I actually have the 4-bank in the garage with extensions for my S2, S3, Blast, Kawi 750 turbo, and Yamaha RD400. Too many bikes to keep them all on the bank lol, and every bike I've bought with a tender on it the battery failed within a few months if not on a tender all the time. The 4 bank keeps my outlets free of fire hazard haha! I do have one of the "H-D" branded tenders I bought when I bought an XB9SX new in 09.  (Message edited by Williamscottrobertson on January 18, 2017) | ||
| Williamscottrobertson |
Oh and I rode the S3 to work today and around town to run a few errands. No problems on the starts. Not sure of the issue the other day. I may put in a cap of marvel mystery oil and see if that might help. | ||
| Jolly |
I stopped using battery tenders and switched to battery minders, they desulfate the battery while charging and have even brought a battery back from "dead" that a battery tender couldn't charge. My S3 was killing batteries at about a rate of one per year.... finally installed a switch on the dash for the clock. No more dead batteries. The mechanical clock was drawing the battery down to DEAD.... with more than just a few bikes, it's tough to keep everything regularly ridden and charged up. Now I turn the clock off and every bike stays connected to a tender (two bikes to a "minder" with one of their splitters). | ||
| Williamscottrobertson |
That's what we use on aircraft batteries mainly bc they are lead acid and will die in about to years without maintenance. Better than a lithium burning a hole thru the wing and falling onto the ground lol. I went out and checked the battery this morning cold after sitting overnight. 12.95v resting 12.45v with the key switch on (dropped to12.22v w/fuel pump running) Saw as low as 10.45v for a moment during cold start 14.3v idling 13.8v on a slight 2-3k rpm hiccuping rev on a cold engine I'm going to put in some injector cleaner or MMO and see if the issue ever re-appears. The bike is such low mileage for its age, I'm leaning away from fried components and toward symptoms from sitting 16 years with who knows what gas and probably ethanol at some point. Thanks for all the responses and help! I know where to go first now if I have problems with the EFI. (Message edited by Williamscottrobertson on January 19, 2017) | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
You're probably right. Low mileages baffle me. In my first month, I'm pretty sure I got several thousand miles on that thing. It was so much of a novelty not having to deal with points and random parts falling off like with my '79 | ||
| Harleyelf |
Your numbers are good, the charging system works fine. My S3's clock runs all winter, I rotate the tender between the S3, the Heritage, and the microbus so that they each get about a week per month. Snow thaws, I hit the button and they all fire right up. |
