| Author | Message | ||
     Greg_cifu |
Brankin, what can you tell me about engine years and serial numbers? I understand that the engines used in Buells did not match the VIN but, they also weren't standard Harley VINs either. So while I could put any Buell 4-speed in this and nobody would know the difference, the second I put a Sportster engine in it (with a Harley VIN), it will be obvious. Would a 1989 Buell get a 1989 engine or is it more likely that a 1988 would be used in the '89? I'm trying to figure out what years to target for a donor. Also debating between finding a number-authentic 1200 vs one of the 883 conversion engines. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I found the link to this thread at ADVrider; looks like a VERY cool project. I just had to see what it looked like "put together":  Sort of a 21st century XLCR- I like it! | ||
| Jayvee |
Actually I think I prefer this XLCR look to my standard Cyclone look. I would even take it in black. Might cut down the side pieces under the seat, depending on what's behind it. | ||
| 1313 |
Brankin, what can you tell me about engine years and serial numbers? From the era of your RR 1200, I can't say that it will be 100% factual because I didn't start working at Buell until April 1991 (as a co-op student). Interestingly, today was my 18th anniversary of getting hired on full time at Buell after graduating from GMI Engineering & Management Institute (now Kettering University). Which was about a half a month after I bought my 1995 S2 (VIN 1313) as a graduation present for myself. But back to the matter at hand... I would presume - but keep in mind can't be sure - that the motor stamping of the abbreviated VIN would be similar to the slightly later model RS's and RSS's that I started to become familiar with. I understand that the engines used in Buells did not match the VIN but, they also weren't standard Harley VINs either. I agree with the statement that they weren't standard Harley VIN's, but as far back as I recall [1991 RS's & RSS's up to the end of the tuber days - and beyond that proven by my '08 XB12XT (VIN 13) and '09 1125CR (VIN 1334 - by sheer luck it has a 13 in it...] the motor #'s were an abbreviation of the VIN. This is covered pretty well in the service manual - at least for the days H-D Tech Pubs (Technical Publications) was in charge of creating the service manuals. From the day I started and even after I *streamlined* the motor number stamping operation the engines would arrive from H-D without the stamping corresponding to the bikes VIN. At this point, you are probably saying "What? Motors without any identification numbers delivered to Buell?!?! That would be an easy way for those less scrupulous to get a big payday!" Well, the fact is that there were and are other identification numbers stamped elsewhere on the engine. This fact tripped up some of those less scrupulous types when an attempt was made to have a big payday by appropriating a partial pallet of S1 engines from Buell. I remember riding in the next morning and seeing the squad cars as soon as I turned down Buell Drive. Not knowing what had happened - and assuming they were targeting me to give me another 'reward' for my lack of 'pedestrian throttle control' - you can bet your sweet bippy that I did EXACTLY 25 MPH down Buell Drive that morning! For more insight into that event - the only crime ever committed at Buell (other than the shutdown of BMC operations, which was likely really committed in a boardroom in Milwaukee) - you'll have to remind someone to tell you sometime... Back in 1991 when I started at Buell, the motor #'s (the abbreviated VIN one) were stamped into the engine a dingle digit at a time - well, except for the asterisk at the beginning and end, as those were made by stamping an 'X' and a "1" to make it look like an asterisk. My first attempt at streamlining the motor stamping operation was to get custom made stamps with the asterisk character. From modest beginnings...but it was definitely a starting point. The final state of my improvements to the motor stamping operation was to design a cartridge that held all of the stamps (different, shorter ones than used originally) that interfaced with a carriage that clamped onto the engine of the completed bike, then with a controlled burst from an air hammer running back and forth over the length of the stamps 2 or 3 times, the motor number would be stamped in a matter of seconds rather than the time consuming operation of stamping each character individually. Another benefit of the system I created was that the cartridge with the characters to be stamped into the engine could be (and was) used to dip into an inkpad and 'stamped' onto the bikes build schedule before stamping the motor. Imagine sitting on the side of the road trying to explain to Johnny Law why the VIN on your bikes frame has a '5' as a check digit, but your motor has an 'S' for a check digit... As far as I know, that method was used up until the end of the tuber days. I can't be certain, but I believe by the time of XB a computer-interfaced pin stamp system (as used by H-D, which forms each character from a number of individual dots) was put in place. But, once again, back to the matter at hand... Would a 1989 Buell get a 1989 engine or is it more likely that a 1988 would be used in the '89? Once again, I can't say with 100% certainty, but I suspect that due to the regulations around the EPA and the specifications placed on the EPA label, that a like MY (Model Year) engine was installed into a like MY bike. For instance, a 1988 bike would have a 1988 engine and a 1989 bike would have a 1989 engine. Again, I can't say with certainty, but I know this was the case just a few short years later. When the Sportster went to a 5 speed transmission, the Buell RS's and RSS's most certainly did not use 'leftover' 4 speed transmission equipped powertrains. I don't know if the RR 1000 was different, due to the fact they were leftover XR 1000 powertrains, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were some unique attributes based on that fact. With all this said - sorry for being so wordy, but it's a trip down memory lane for me and it's apparent a little further down memory lane than I'm familiar with - my suggestion (IMHO) on finding a suitable engine for your RR 1200 would be an honest to goodness same year, from the factory 1200 cc, 4 speed engine. But I would not toss out an 883 that was converted to 1200 either - unless there were significant differences between the 883's and 1200's for that year... There's one rather large benefit from owning an RR - that seems to be being overlooked - once you put the full bodyset on it, nobody is going to be able to see the motor numbers - at least not without a fair amount of effort. Heck, it could be stamped as a '69 CB 750 and NOBODY would know! Actually, if I were doing it (keep in mind this is my opinion), I would probably try to duplicate the 'breathed-on' powertrain as specified in either of the magazine articles. But then again, I've never been much for anything that is 100% stock - which ironically is the target for some of the 4-wheeled projects that have taken a back-burner since I've been bitten by the Buell bug... Again, sorry for being so wordy and getting off track on a few occasions, but the early days of Buell sure brings back some GREAT memories for those that were fortunate enough to have experienced it!!! 1313 | ||
| Greg_cifu |
Brankin, thank you a hundred times over. That wasn't a wordy response at all. That's all amazingly valuable information that doesn't just help me but, anybody else going down this road with an RR or RS model that is missing engines. So VIN stamping was your project, huh? As I mentinoed in email: I'm a prototyping engineer in a lab where we build what we design. I was sharing with a coworker / friend today the picture of that rear engine mount, the frame and the sideplate. The complexity of that section of the bike boggles my mind. In 1986-87, there were no decent 3D CAD systems unless you had a mainframe (and even those sucked compared to today). Further: I have no idea how Erik talked a casting house into taking that work. The production numbers just weren't there to support all that goes into developing good castings. What most don't think about is the rough castings had to be finish machined. That meant somebody had to design and make fixtures to hold the rough cast pieces for facing, drilling and boring operations. Or the oil tank: count the pieces, then try to imagine the fixture that held all of that in place to weld it. Amazing. That had to happen for every piece of that motorcycle, before the first unit could be built. Every little detail of production becomes its own little, monumental task and you have to finish it before you move to the next. Again, thanks for the in-depth reply. I have a lead on a 1989 883 engine that needs top end work. I'm thinking either a 1250 kit or I'll bore the 883 barrels and have them replated. Add some Thunderstorm-like heads that fit the first-gen Evo Sportster and a little more cam. I'd like to see power delivery like the 1998 Thunderstorm-spec engine. As you said, it's all covered up anyway. It would be nice to have some of the power that the chassis is so obviously capable of using. | ||
| Buellish |
Greg,I found this head tutorial with a quick search.They mention a spacing issue with 4-speed pushrods when using later 5-speed heads. http://hammerperf.com/xltopend.shtml#heads | ||
| Greg_cifu |
Good site. They have a very good page here that describes the differences in the head designs and the changes in pushrod tube spacing: http://hammerperf.com/ttxlheads.shtml That's why I said "Thunderstorm-like" heads. That page shares all the details that make the Thunderstorm work so well. I figured I would look for somebody who does porting and chamber shaping and see how much of the Thunderstorm formula could be applied to the 4-speed heads. With the smallest ports and chambers, the 883 heads would have the most material to work with. With all the information and names in this thread, I'm also wondering if the original engine couldn't be tracked down. | ||
| Hughlysses |
This is a very cool and educational thread. | ||
| K12pilot |
Nice CL catch, good luck with the project. Looks awesome. | ||
| Greg_cifu |
No new developments but, here's a gem to share, hot off the scanner: the RR1200 brochure. (somebody call the BMC copyright lawyer--wait-that was probably Erik  )  | ||
| Greg_cifu |
Here is the spec sheet that went with the brochure, probably printed from the same Macintosh that produced the owner's manual.  | ||
| Mikeyp |
Awesome thread! | ||
| Greg_cifu |
My copy of Easyrider got here today. I hadn't seen an issue in maybe 35 years. I feel 15-20 IQ points dumber after flipping through it. And the Buell was in the back of the magazine. At first, I couldn't even find it. Article started on page 122! | ||
| Kyrocket |
Which copy was it in again? I have a box full in the attic that a friend was going to throw away. IIRC they're mid 80's to early 90's. This thread has been fun to follow! | ||
| Kyrocket |
Nevermind, July '93, I found it. I'll try to remember and look next time I'm up there. | ||
| Greg_cifu |
Parts hoarding has begun. I just bought a proper, early top engine mount and cast swingarm brace (matches the Westwind). Crawling around under the Westwind also revealed how much different the original cast front engine mounts were. They were much shorter and used a long steel collar and bolt hanging down from the rubber mount. Though this is 1991 5-speed Westwind, everything looks the same as the 4-speed RR: component placement, brackets, etc. | ||
| Greg_cifu |
Another treasure showed up in the mail yesterday: April 1989 Cycle Magazine. I know I had the issue somewhere but, couldn't find it. Ebay to the rescue. There just aren't enough good photos of the RR1200. There are the original Buell shots. A hundred people have taken a snapshot of the Barber Museum bikes. Not much else. Here we go. They aren't mine. I hope the old publishers of Cycle don't mind.   Those photo captions confirmed a ton of things for me. First: the passenger-peg loops don't appear to do anything on the RR. Since mine were cut off, I'm not sure if reproducing them is appropriate or just leave them off (I'm open for opinions). The top engine mount does indeed match the 5-speed Westwind AND the S2. If you look closely, it's different than later models. It has a triangular gusset attaching the heim joint to the engine. Later brackets had a box tube on the upper mount. That photo also shows nice, round pipe insulation being used for tank mounting bumpers, while my Westwind looks more like flat packing foam, wrapped around the same spots. White zip-tie around black foam, while the Westwind is a black tie around white foam (I wish I were kidding...they probably used whatever the hardware store had that day). The early S2 swingarm brace I just bought matches what we see on the RR. Finally, the original shock was indeed a naked Works Performance unit. I wasn't sure if it was the enclosed type seen on some Westwinds or not. One thing this brought up was the mention of FOUR dog-bones connecting the engine to the frame. My reference Westwind only has three, though the mount on the front head has a hole for a fourth. Can anybody confirm if the fourth dog-bone was used on the RR or not? | ||
| Basti |
well do want to some pictures from a buell maniac ? | ||
| Basti |
just ask youre not the first who has discovered an RR1200:-) | ||
| Greg_cifu |
Basti, if you have a similar thread, with detailed pictures, point us to it. This thread isn't just about me or this bike in particular. There are still Battletwins and Westwinds out there, yet to be discovered. As they come out of hiding, there will be people interested in accurate restoration or preservation. So...yes...if you have pictures of your RR with the bodywork off, post away. It'll be valuable for me as well as the next guy. | ||
| Greg_cifu |
Have you ever heard of buying a door knob, then looking for a house it fits? I sorta did that about a 18 months ago. I bought these calipers with no idea of what I was going to do with them. It seems I found the house that needed a couple of door knobs.  Can somebody tell me what pads these use? I looked at some Lockheed four-piston calipers and I think I found the right shape pads. That was just a guess. It would be nice if somebody could confirm before I drop $50 on non-returnable pads that may not fit. I also assume these use diaper pins, just like the Gambler rear caliper? Help? Some goof spent a ton of time polishing these. Nothing that a trip through the glass bead cabinet can't restore to original condition.  When you see this on the caliper, it makes sense why they had to move to PM calipers as production picked up. Always having to walk the line between the DOT and the attorneys.  I spent a few hours stripping the bike. She will never again see the Easyriders configuration. I have to admit that he put a lot of work into the bike and I was a bit melancholy as I contemplated this pre-Lightning Buell would never return to the configuration it spent the last 20-ish years in. I was relieved to find that he cut little or nothing on the harness. As I cut zip ties, removed add-ons and non-stock components, the original, unaltered wire harness emerged. It appears that he left all the original wire lengths, including the wiring to reach all the way to the instrument cluster and ignition switch up on the fairing. The original ignition switch was still there, zip-tied to the frame. The harness isn't perfect but, it's FAR, FAR better than expected. The bar switches are off, the headlight shell is almost gutted (need to de-pin some connectors to get them out), all the extra brackets and the dual coils and mounts are off. The plan is to mock up the entire motorcycle and get it running, then tear it back down for paint and cosmetics. It will be much easier to work out mechanical issues and rig bodywork if all the paint, plating and fasteners aren't perfect. I was recently told about some specialy-painted RRs provided by Buell to Bartel's Harley Davidson. As he told the story, there were 4-5 of them, supplied from the factory in a stars & stripes paint scheme. The only one I knew of was this shot from Bonneville, from Court & Dave's book. Can anybody confirm if this was an optional paint scheme that was available from the factory? Mr Gess? I'm assuming that photo may have come from your archives and you were around at that time. I'm wondering if #13 might be one of those bikes? I know it came from Bartel's and there were only so many bikes. I'm debating the pros & cons of this paint scheme. Were there any others? Survivors?  | ||
| Basti |
Hi firsts of all sorry if my last post sounded a bit aggressive this wasnt my intention. Ok here you have some pictures of my extra calipers , I can measure the brake pads and the adapter to fit these calipers to the MR1 fork. Hope this helps, I just need some time to dig out a rear caliper as I may have extra pads. Best wishes Basti   | ||
| Greg_cifu |
Thanks Basti. No worries. I honestly scoured this site looking for pictures of yours and couldn't find much. You may have one of the few that is on the road and NOT on a permanent, static display. Dimensions of the pads are helpful but, my hope is that somebody can tell us what the pads come from. Erik couldn't have specified his own pad design back then. It wouldn't have made sense. He must have used somebody else's pad design. It's like that with everything else on the bike. I was trying to figure out where Erik would have sourced those little rubber visors over the gauges. I knew he couldn't afford to custom make those and they had to be commonly available somewhere else. I did a search on Ebay for "Gauge visor" and in the search results, I found out they came from (drum roll please) A HARLEY!! Yes, FXR and supposedly some Sportsters used them. A pair of NOS rings are now on their way. So the game of finding parts has become channeling Erik and trying to guess what he would have done to source parts with a limited purchase quantity and little engineering resources to direct at it. Don't measure the brackets for me yet. I may have one coming that I can use for dimensions. | ||
| 1313 |
they probably used whatever the hardware store had that day That is an accurate statement! The good old days... 1313 | ||
| Greg_cifu |
ACT Anti-Dive The research for unobtainium parts goes on. One of the items that had me the most worried was, "How am I going to replicate the A.C.T. Anti dive system?" I understood the principle behind it. I had seen the system on two RS1200s. I just could not figure out where to find a proper accumulator, the right electric valve or duplicate some of the more involved cast parts. Googling around for information about the system, the most obvious answer of all emerges: Harley FXRT. I knew the patent was Erik's and held by Harley but, did not realize that the parts were lifted right out of the Harley parts bin. Here are the components I just bought for the RR (from an early FXRT). A basic tour of the components: the two steel lines connect to the air volume in each fork leg. The aluminum thing they connect to is just a plumbing manifold and mount. On the back of that manifold is an electrically operated valve connected to the brake light circuit. That valve connects through plumbing and a rubber hose to a steel tank at the other end. A schrader valve at the tank allows for adjustment of air pressure in the forks. The only components in that picture NOT used on the RR are the steel lines (replaced by rubber hoses) and the bracket holding the accumulator.  For those not familiar, it's an electrically actuated system that reduces the effective air volume of the front fork. It's the same idea as raising your fork oil level: higher oil level equals less volume of air for the forks to compress--it raises the fork's compression ratio. What the system does is provide a large air volume in that steel accumulator. It's plumbed back into the fork caps. The fork oil level is run higher than would be normal for a conventional fork. Riding down the road, the suspension responds as it would on a normal bike. When you brake for a corner, the brake light circuit activates an electric valve that closes the air flow to the metal accumulator. This greatly reduces the available volume of air in the forks and the suspension becomes stiffer and more resistant to dive. The one item that was not from Harley was the cast top plate that provided both a mounting system for the sphere, valve and plumbing. And in the search for better pictures of that plate, it was quickly discovered that there were TWO different versions of that plate on the RR1200. The earlier version shown here was shared back through the RR1000. The later model top plate eliminated the Harley-sourced triangular manifold and tightened up the layout. That version began somewhere in the RR1200 run and continued through the RS1200 Westwinds (4-speed versions). Since mine was the 24th built, it's anybody's guess as to which it originally had and when the early parts ran out.  I have made the executive decision to go with the earlier style plate. Does anybody have a spare ACT top plate like shown in the photo above? Or one that I can borrow to build a SolidWorks model? I don't mind paying one of the prototype sand casting houses to make one if I can just get my hands on one to build an accurate model. Also: can somebody please tell me where the top triple clamp came from? M1R forks were used on the Ducati Paso but, the triple is wrong. I've looked at BMWs, Cagivas, Ducatis and others. Nothing seems to be quite right, though the features are pretty clearly Marzocchi (judging by the pinch bolt design). (Message edited by greg_cifu on July 10, 2013) | ||
| Steeleagle |
I have the A.C.T. for my '90 RS available for template-making. | ||
| Greg_cifu |
Dennis, that's a generous offer. Yours is the later style plate, correct? Is there anybody else with an RR or RS that needs a replacement top plate for their A.C.T. system? If we got a few made, it might cut down slightly on the cost. If it's just one, I'm going to make the earlier style plate. If others need help, I'll sway whichever way the group leans. NEW DEVELOPMENT: I've been in email contact with the original owner of this RR. Paint color has been solved: it was the 'normal' RR1200 paint job. We exchanged a couple of emails and he had a lot to share. I'm going to send him a link to this thread. He's VERY interested in following the restoration. Indeed, the bike was modified to create what they thought Buell should have been doing at the time. He said the handling wasn't quite up to where they felt it should be. That drove the switch to the custom Ohlins shock and WP Roma forks. The engine mods were for obvious reasons. I also got the rundown on the bodywork and other mods. It was a fascinating discussion. It was the Lightning formula, applied years before the S1. Granddaddy of the Lightning? I don't know but, he also shared that it was photographed by Jim Gianatsis for the Mikuni Calendar one year. There may need to be a second build with this bodywork, to recreate it with something less rare than an RR. | ||
| Greg_cifu |
I hope people are reading this tome. I'm not getting much feedback and I know some of you can answer the questions I've posted. The last thing done to the chassis was strip all the non-stock parts, trying to evaluate how much original stuff was intact and what the harness looked like. Here is the pile of removed items. Some will go in a box, some in the trash and some goes back on the bike (oil cooler, gas cap, etc).  So here is where we stood. The cluster has been removed and the bars stripped and flipped over, clubman-style (very temporary). The headlight bucket is still captive--held by the connectors.  Take a mental snapshot of that picture. Remember: it's still missing the front engine mount triangle (removable on the RR and RS models). It's visible here from the Easyriders image, with the aftermarket Ohlins shock reservoir clamped to it. It's not the most complicated bracket in the world but, it was still something to fabricate. Getting a factory Works Performance shock or even the custom Ohlins the original owner had made would be nice. Finding a replacement today, other than the normal tuber shocks, would be next to impossible. It was one of the things I considered impossible to reproduce and would compromise how accurate this restoration would go.  I knew a guy...who knew a guy...well, they're both going to remain nameless, though they may be looking in on this restoration as it progresses. Once my contact knew what I had bought and taken on, he called a few people on my behalf. "A few parts from an old Buell" were found that "..you might be interested in." Like these:  Unbelievably, there is my Ohlins shock, still clamped to the front triangle, years later, just as it was in that photo from 1992. Along with it was what I believe to be my original Works Performance shock. He also had an RR1200 "race tank." Here it is next to the tank I bought the chassis with. It is undeniably a duplicate of number 13s existing tank, right down to the strap-hook retainer brackets screwed to the front of each tank.  This was absolutely some of the old Buell remains from the same shop my chassis came from. Here it is, bolted back in place for the first time in who-knows-how-many years. You can also see the recently-purchased swingarm brace waiting to grasp an engine again.  There were a few other minor parts as well. Look closely and compare to the stripped photo above. A sharp eye will see the missing Marzocchi M1R forks, with the clip-ons, the two fairing bracket stubs and the pair of shocks.  I was so stoked about the forks and shocks, I almost forgot this:  What it cost was irrelevant (I keep telling myself that--over and over ). It had to be done to reunite these parts. I ran out of daylight and put everything away. Everything needs a good bath and evaluation in a few days. It looks like the leftovers from a couple of RRs--some of them were the Bartel's Harley Davidson race bikes. There is a race fairing with the instruments cut off and a headlight cutout but, it still has the windshield ears. The blue fairing above is missing those ears. The back half of the front fender is visible above and in good shape. The left-rear lower fairing is still missing as is the front fender. Not sure about the condition of other pieces. I believe the tail was gutted for weight. The license plate tongue is missing. The seat is rough but, at least the bike has one and I believe the upholstery is original. It's still a candidate for some of the Airtech body pieces. original is nice but, only if it's worthy of being on the bike. Each part will all be scrutinized for repairs and decisions will be made. I'm going to go try to stop my wallet's bleeding now (I think this hit an artery). Seeing the bike look like an RR again was worth it. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I hope people are reading this tome. I'm not getting much feedback and I know some of you can answer the questions I've posted. I'm certainly following! Unfortunately, I can't help you with questions, but I am learning a lot about early Buells by following the thread. That's amazing that you were able to get in touch with the original owner. | ||
| Bigblockbruce |
I second what Hughlysses said! I'm definitely following along--here and over at ADVrider (I'm brucifer there). |
