| Author | Message | ||
     Ratbuell |
I know Thunderstorm heads are a good upgrade on the earlier motors like my 95 S2. If you use them with the stock non-thunderstorm pistons, I know you won't get the increased compression..do you *lose* any? I.e. is the chamber significantly larger in the T-storm head than the OEM head? I have a full T-storm motor in my S1W, so I can get my "fix" that way without adding the hot weather pinging to the S2. Also, has anyone used stock XB "E" cams in an earlier motor? I know you have to change the pinion gear, but other than that...they should bolt right in? How do they rate compared to the Lightning/thunderstorm cams? Or the S/E 565, or the N2 or N4? IIRC the "performance chart" should go as follows: Stock S2 cams; N2; Lightning; E; N4? It would appear that I am tearing the top off my S2 in the very near future (like, tomorrow) to diagnose what sounds like a bad front wrist pin bushing. While I'm in there..... Plan A: rebuild what's there, leave it alone, ride it. Plan B: plan A, but with E cams / adjustable pushrods. Plan C: Plan A, but with T-storm heads Plan D: Rebuild it with both the E cams and T-storm heads. Money I don't really have to spend right now, but in the end it'd get me about where I want to be performance-wise: decent grunt, reliable, relatively low compression for daily commuting in the heat, and all factory (albeit from different generations) parts. Of course wherever I end up working, it'll get all the "usual" upgrades - if I'm in the cams, it'll get the bronze oil gear; the top end will get the good Cometic MLS gaskets; etc. Any thoughts from the peanut gallery? OH - and this all has to happen so I can have time to tear it down; machine what needs machining; put it back together and road test it to my paranoid satisfaction... before I ride it out to Homecoming.  The good news is we have new T-storm heads in stock; we have E cams in stock; we have good used N4s and N2s and 565s. I love being able to pick thru the old race program stuff! | ||
| Phat_j |
if you have access to them, the xb heads are better yet than the thunderstorm.... and they will work great with your current flat top pistons....... | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
Actually you would get increased compression from the T'Storm heads. At one time I was under the impression that the c/r increase was from the pistons but I found out it was the heads, not the pistons, that are the primary cause for the increase. However, I'm not sure of the compatibility of the S2 pistons with t'storm heads. | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
Phat_j, I thought XB heads would require XB pistons for easy install. I had heard rumors of XB heads with older pistons to get a higher c/r around 11:1 or so. But wouldn't that require relief cuts for valve clearence? That would be great on a performance build but some might want to keep the c/r around 10:1. | ||
| Buellistic |
Phat_j: Valve pockets ??? In BUELLing Lafatette | ||
| Phat_j |
valve pockets are not needed with 536 CAMS anything bigger, i'm not sure .... | ||
| Ratbuell |
Sounds like Buellistic isn't familiar with the term. Valve pockets are cutouts in the top of the piston so you don't have an interference (valve hits piston) engine. If you look at photos of higher compression pistons, you will see a cutout on either side to give the valve somewhere to go and not hit anything when it's open. Since the Buell motor is non-interference (?) - as defined by open valves usually do not travel below the headgasket surface - will I be OK as long as I install a neutral or negative height piston (does not extend above the headgasket)? Or am I in for some clay modeling? I'd love to get a definitive answer on the thunderstorm head / S2 piston equation since that's the way I'm leaning...final CR for that setup? | ||
| Buellistic |
Ratbuell: The XB Heads have better flowing OEM Ports ... IMHO "i" would go with the THUNDERSTORM Valves which are the same size with bigger valve stems ... Of course Scream'n Eagle Valve Springs ... | ||
| Phat_j |
laffytaffy wouldnt be familure with the top end cuz his has and i'll quote "never been off in xxxxxx miles." | ||
| Buellistic |
Phat_j: That is 96,543.5 as of the last ride today !!! Had the head off my 1951 ST once or twice, would that count ??? "i" did have the heads off my 1949 WL once or twice, would that count ??? How about my 1958 XL heads ??? Or may be my 1960 FLH heads ??? The lower case of HONDA 305 Super Hawk to true up the crank shaft ??? Bought it very used an some butcher put it together not true !!! "NOW" when and "IF" the Top-End comes off my 97S3T, "THAT IS A STORY" you and Spiderman are just going to have to wait for ??? You'll better hope "i" am not too old and do not give a "BUELLschitte" about doing my "TORQUE IMPROVEMENTS" to the "HEADS" of which "i" will share with you'll and BUELLdom ... AND THAT IS NO "BUELLschitte" !!! In BUELLing LaFayette | ||
| Sportyeric |
Ratbuell. I hope you haven't proceeded too far in your project yet. T-Storms with flat-tops pistons will be pretty lame. I don't know what the stock S2 heads have for volume but the S1's heads have 62cc for 10:1 compression. The T-Storms are 67cc, also for 10:1, I think. So if you use T-Storms and flattops you will end up at about 9:1 or so. | ||
| Tattoodnscrewd |
I might be able to help clarify what heads will do what .. If I am not mistaken, all of the 1200cc pistons are flat ... and for comparison -between my 97 S1 and my 99 M2 ... the compression is the same 10:1 ... and the S1 did not have the t-storm heads while the M2 does. I just posted in regards to gains from XB heads .. they WILL BE BETTER than thunderstorm heads ! I threw a complete XB top end on my S1 with XB9 domed pistons (the xb12 pistons are flat) .. Compression becomes 11.5:1 and the horsepower went from a stock of 91hp to about 115hp ... Dyno'd 97rwhp and 85 rwtq (with stock 40m CV and a crap Force exhaust) without upgrading the cams - using the stock lightning cams - ... the T-storm heads don't flow as good as the XB heads ... and as I stated in my posts over the past week in regards to my upgrade with a better carb (44mm CV) and exhaust (race exhaust) than I currently am running, you WILL reach 105-108rwhp .. it has been done and proven already. Anyone questions this you can contact Hal's Speed shop in New Berlin, WI and they can verify everything I have said. So - by just throwing on an XB top end with XB9 domed pistons, I gained nearly 25hp over the stock S1. You will not see that much by just bolting on T-storm heads. The XB setup will get you approx 10 more hp than the t-storms - about 20hp more with the proper carb and exhaust. And this a complete BOLT-ON upgrade. My dyno chart shows 2 runs - both are with the XB setup, the better of the 2 was after junking the Dynojet kit that was on it and doing some tuning ..  (Message edited by tattoodnscrewd on June 09, 2007) (Message edited by tattoodnscrewd on June 09, 2007) | ||
| Ratbuell |
Now, what front motor mount did you use for the XB/tuber mating? American Sport Bike? I like the XB heads...but a $229 mount tickles a bit. And you are correct - the S1 does not have t-storm, while the M2 does...but I have a 98 S1*W* - the first thunderstorm motor from the factory. 101/90 factory ratings and the first Manta tank. All that aside, I think I may do the XB heads only, with either E (XB) cams or Lightning cams, and keep the S2 pistons and cylinders to keep the compression low(er) for daily commuting. Balls-to-the-wall riding is why I also own an S1W, LOL. ...and if I'm reading it right, you have the carb set up with 45, 180 jets and 1st clip on the needle? Or does the scan misdirect me? GREAT information, please keep us posted when you upgrade the carb, etc! | ||
| Tattoodnscrewd |
You read correctly on the current setup - that is with the stock 40mm CV ... but remember - that is also with a Force pipe and the entire XB top with higher compression ... a few hours was spent to pull it from the 91rwhp it pulled on the first run to the 97rwhp on the last .. and yes - the S1W does come with a higher HP number than either of my bikes stock - I was using those for compression comparisons .. at 101hp stock on the S1W you are looking at high 80's at best for rwhp ... XB heads will still give a gain, but without the XB9 pistons it won't be quite as much. And looking at the stock numbers of an S1W - you can see I still gained about 15rwhp over the S1W in stock trim... Lightning cams are a little more aggressive than teh XB cams, something to do with the ramp making the XB cams not as hard on the valve train. As far as the motor mount, I have a custom one made by Steve Mackay ... I was told however that you can just slot the holes in the stock mount and you will be just fine - I guess there is only a half inch difference in the distance between the holes from the tuber heads and XB heads... the guys at Hal's said they do it all the time and there is no problem - but a nice chunk of billet in front is never a bad thing !! (Message edited by tattoodnscrewd on June 09, 2007) | ||
| Phat_j |
first off, all 1200 motors do not have flat pistons, thunderstorm motors have a flat dome almost all the way acrosst.... which means that the thunderstorm heads and flat top pistons will give you a lower cr... the most cost per hp is definatly gonna be xb heads and flat top pistons.... you already have the pistons.... second, i dont want to call anyone a liar, i'm more interested in knowing what he's doing to make this happen, but to run a harley motor at 11.5 to 1 cr on pump gas dosent work..... not for long anyhow....if u are truely doin this, fill me in. i'm not affraid to learn something new. | ||
| Tattoodnscrewd |
Like I said, if you question anything I posted, the guy's at Hal's Speed shop will tell you the same thing I did - ask for Sam or Terry, along with a driveline engineer at Buell (who is running at a higher compression yet on his S1 race bike - I believe he is at 12:1 but he also has a lightened crank and isn't running with a base gasket), and Danny Bilanksy, pro racer for Hal's (who builds his own motors) and top-notch Buell tech at Hal's - he is the one who first put me on to this setup and did my dyno-tuning for me.. they had already done this setup before I inquired about the best/easiest bang for the buck setup - these guys do know what they are talking about .. as I said in other posts ... it's a proven setup, and proven again with my bike. With the Screamin' Eagle selectable curve ignition it is possible to run on pump gas (93 octane minimum), that is why I did this setup .. I already had this ignition module, I talked with everyone in the know about this .... I ran at Road America on Thursday and ran the snot out of it .. bike did great ! I'll learn any time I can as well .. which 1200 pistons are not flat ? The stockers on my S1 were flat, the XB 12's are flat, and you say the t-storms are flat - all of the above have cutouts for the valves, but are still flat .. .. which 1200 pistons (choosing from stock pistons is what I am referring to when I made my comment) aren't flat, as far as I knew only XB9 pistons were domed ? You guys can do whatever you want to your motors ... I only posted again about this to show the potential of the bolt-on XB setup and that it probably is the best bang for the buck setup ... Phat J - Are you coming to Homecoming? .. If you are, you can talk to everyone I just listed above if you need verification or further details as I credit them, not myself for my motor - I may have built it with help from the friend at Buell - but all of the above pointed me in this direction. (Message edited by tattoodnscrewd on June 09, 2007) (Message edited by tattoodnscrewd on June 09, 2007) | ||
| Tattoodnscrewd |
Phat J - OK ... I reread what you wrote .. I read it wrong the first time - you were saying the T-storm pistons were domed .. makes me ask - why my 99 M2 with T-storm heads only had 10:1 compression ... I don't know, nor do I claim to know all there is Buell .. only what I have first hand knowledge of ... Going by the numbers between my two bikes ... 97 S1, and 99 M2 .. both having 10:1 compression, but one having t-storm and one having Lightning heads .. (Compression ratios per owner's manual .. ) It would appear that there is no difference in pistons .. and that the cams are what made other t-storm equipped bikes have more power than the same t-storm equipped M2... which bikes had 10.5:1 Cr's stock ? Either way .. with the right curve, the 11.5:1 is doable on pump gas ... that was my first question to these guys when they told me to use the XB9 pistons for the higher compression ... can I run it on pump gas with no issues .. and will this be a streetable. reliable setup .. I was then told I would need the selectable curve ignition, well - I already had it - so I was good to go .. but if I remember correctly, I would need to run at least 93 octane .. | ||
| Buellistic |
As in RETARD the timing !!! In BUELLing LaFayette | ||
| Phat_j |
thunderstorms do not have flat to pistons, but they do have a larger combustion chamber which is how the cr stays put.... | ||
| Sportyeric |
The stock 1200 Sportster heads (S2) were prone to having pinging problems due to poor design, I recall from my reading about it in the 90s. (My S2 doesn't ping but I've assumed that was because the rings were tired or the timing was retarded. I haven't yet determined which.)Anyway, the improved head design of the S1 Lightning allowed them to go to 10:1 compression. For the T-Storm heads, they increased the slope of the 'wedge' in the heads from 10 degrees to fifteen degrees and put 15 degree domed pistons in to match, which allowed the use of bigger valves, and kept the compression ratio the same as the S1's (with flat-top pistons) at 10:1. You can go higher with the compresion ratio with proper assembly, paying attention to the squish area in a manner that the factory tolerances don't allow. But your S2 stocker should ping more than an S1W. Backing off the timing would be a preferable way to address the problem (or building for a tighter squish) rather than reducing the compression ratio. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Well, it's apart and I (depressingly) didn't find a huge amount of slop in the front wrist pin. Without a mic, however, it's nearly impossible to tell...they're going to measure it all here at work later this week for me. I did note some odd wear marks on the bore, indicating some non-linear piston travel, so I'm still hoping I had an actual problem and I didn't just disassemble my bike for educational purposes and a little bloodletting, LOL. The guys in the race shop did some inventory for me and they're putting pricing together for: new XB heads; 1k mile XB heads; Andrews N2 cams; new T-storm heads; new, ported, big valve Tstorm heads. No pistons, but that's OK since I don't know what size I'm going to need just yet. So...their inventory didn't help me make the decision  I was almost hoping they didn't have much to choose from, making my life "easier". Now I actually have to *think* about what to do...grrr  Anyone know what CR I'll end up with using stock pistons and XB heads? Or XB12 pistons and XB heads? I want to stay relatively tame on this one...<he> | ||
| Rick_a |
Go with '07 XL Nightster heads...exactly the same as the XB's but already have the breather holes drilled and tapped. Any '04+ XL 1200 heads will work but they are black with highlighted fins...and a little more expensive. Depending on the elevation 10.5:1 CR is generally the limit for a mild cam. My S1 is running 10.75:1 and works fine until it encounters stop and go traffic for a length of time. It's fine as long as I don't try to launch it hard in those conditions. Flat tops will get 9.8:1 with XB or '04 up XL heads, XB pistons will get 10:1. The bolt-in XL cams or "Lightning Cams" make more power under the curve than the "E" cams...as well as being much easier to install. My S1 gained 21 hp and 4 ft-lbs of torque peak with my setup (Andrews N9's, Mikuni 42, '04-up XL heads, '04-up XL Screaming Eagle Forged 10.5:1 pistons), and the amount of torque gained low down was tremendous...and hard-hitting. The heads have since been ported because I hate the fact that there's more power to be had in it. Anyway, Lighting cams and the new style heads/XB pistons will usually net horsepower in the high 80's to low 90's and torque in the mid 80's. Add a quality port job and 100hp is a possibility without resorting to a huge carb or super high CR. | ||
| Aaomy |
ratbuell.. just thought i would tell you my personal set up.. it is on a 1996 s2t,, might be what your looking for.. 1996 s2t,, stock cases and lower end.. SE bolt in cams.. crane lifters and adjustable push rods. had cylinders re-hatched with stock piston, hastings rings. xb heads . shaved .005 off one and .010 off the other.. ( measurements and liquid displacement confirmed the same things,, one combustion chamber was larger.) used copper base gaskets to bring squish band into .033 (wanted between .030 and .035) used personal air intake and 2" k&n filter. thunder heart fully programeble emc running single fire.. running pro series plugs and wires,, race header and can.. the catculated mechanical compression of my current set up is 9.9645:1. she runs strong all day long.. plenty of fun. but likes premium.. the carb is a cv 40 tried the thunder slide and yanked it quick,, went for modified stock slide current settings are smoothed and polished slide drilled #32 .116 nokh needle, shimmed klein racing emulsion tube 200 main 48 pilot dyno jet accelerator pump personaly i kind of like the natural al cylinder heads. that way you have the natural case and heads with the black cut fin cylinders.. gives definition to the different engine parts.. you can look at my profile pick.. or e mail me.. i posted a lot of mods so if you search for aaomy you should find some stuff.. if you want to know more just pm.. latter |
