| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
Lots of folks talking . . . I just had the duty of reviewing a very detailed and sophisticated QA/QC plan from a Chinese manufacturer for a $125,000,000 purchase. I was a skeptic. I've spent a lot of time traveling to factories and auditing QA/QC and studying the theory and background of QA/QC programs in construction. My shit fails . . LOTS of folks have problems. I have to confess I was impressed and am eager to see how the entire relationship and project goest over the next several years. The last projects I did we made a major purchase from China and my only problems was shipping companies and logistics from customs. It bothers me that ever with a $70,000,000 tariff tossed on top of the price they are so much cheaper. Then I look past the fact that most NY public employees are getting $200,000 a year in retirement and it's easy to see why. A couple years ago . . . . just to get a sense of how things I had changed . . . . at least in the guitar world . . . I bought 2 Hummingbird guitars. One from the Gibson Cusdtom Shop the other and Epiphone imitation. The Gibson was about $5,000 the Epihone was about $300. I'd challenge anyone, in a blind test to tell them apart. But, alas, I am a creature of habit in my personal purchasing and just bought several more Gibsons. . . all USA made. I try to buy USA in everything . . . my handguns, bicycles, guitars and trucks . . . but the world economy is changing for our collective benefit. Any discussion of Chinese QA/QC . . . I guess my point is . . needs to be based on real facts . . not our long standing "tribal knowledge" of what we think we know. | ||
| Sami |
" I'd challenge anyone, in a blind test to tell them apart." Unfair challenge. Anything can be made cheaper when China copies everything from others without doing their own R&D. Gibson has put R&D into their guitars which drives up the cost, which is not the case with imitation. Not saying the increase of price is justified in all cases, certainly there are products that are unreasonably expensive for reasons that you mentioned (retirement benefits, golden handcuffs, etc.) Speaking of real facts, China is very tribal. They put high tariffs on products coming from the USA, thus making Chinese products artificially cheaper. China also manipulates their currency, making export cheaper and import expensive. If the USA did those things, then the Left would scream "xenophobic, racist, etc." from the roof tops. But when China does it, it's all fair game. Definitely the world economy is changing, though there may not be such thing as "collective benefit" in each and every case. It was once argued that outsourcing and open borders would have "collective benefit", but most people have now seen the lack of collective benefit in those cases, such as loss of jobs and lower standard of living. Economic self-reliance is not a bad thing to have, especially in times of economic crisis. Hard times make strong men, and better products. They don't make fan blades like this anymore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lakd-Fs0UZs (Message edited by Sami on October 21, 2020) | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/16662/china-fen tanyl-source QC costs. If only by declaring scrap junk that otherwise would be sold at a profit. Everyone hates the QC department. But my concern isn't cruddy products sold with little care for the customer or reputation. The "market" aka customers, will choose it's priorities if there's any alternatives. The problem comes when there aren't any other sources left because, say, GE, closed the American factories to maximize profits & outsourced everything except top management. Chinese ruling class elites, the Mandarins of today, have enjoyed watching poison dog food, poison children's toothpaste, ( glycol sweetener ) and other highly profitable crimes shipping to eager fools. The Chinese Communist Party has been practicing narcotic warfare for decades. Heroin in Vietnam, Fentanyl in America, and they can easily rationalize that thanks to 19th century European exploitation. See Boxer Rebellion and Opium Wars. Every American dead from drugs sold at a profit to the Glorious Revolution is one they don't have to shoot when they eventually are opposed in their ambitions to take Taiwan, and the rest of the world. Win win. | ||
| Court |
>>>>Gibson has put R&D into their guitars which drives up the cost, which is not the case with imitation. No one is more unhappy about it than I. I have lots of guitars and my very first one was a 1965 Gibson Melody Maker. When I saw Gibson going bankrupt I was crushed. The new management appears to be doing a great job and I've got a couple of the new models on the way. And . . if you want to see how folks value "American Made" . . . check out some of these . . . . I am shopping for a Gibson 335 and I'm finding folks REALLY like the vintage ones. Certainly makes me wish I'd bought a 335 back in the "good ol' days" when you didn't have to spend $20,000 to $70,000 for one. https://www.gbase.com/stores/opporknockity-tunes-o k-guitars/inventory | ||
| Court |
By the way . . . just to be clear . . .other than the 2 Epiphones . . . I don't own anything that was not made in the USA. I understand the reality but have my own buying criteria. | ||
| Tootal |
I heard a story a year or so ago about a guy working with a chinese company. They had specked grade 8 bolts and already had a supplier in the states. The chinese company said they could get him bolts that were the same for much less. Grade 8 bolts have six lines on the head of the bolt like a star burst. You add two to how many lines there are and that's the grade. So the chinese company sold them a bunch of bolts that looked like grade 8 bolts, however, they were not hardened at all. They were junk steel with 6 lines on the head. They looked like grade 8 but were absolute crap. You get what you pay for. They had so many failures and finally tested the bolts and found the problem. | ||
| Court |
Anecdotal; stories such as this abound and reflect as much on the inadequate QA/QC as they do the manufacturer. This story really resonates with me as it is nearly identical . . . substituting the fraudulent Grade 8 bolts for the real . . . as what happened when Brooklyn Bridge was built and the supplier's fraudulent substitution of inferior-quality cable in the initial construction. Dishonest folks were here when the pyramids were built, they are here today and only the wanting mind confuses quality with dishonesty and American firms, throughout history, are not unrepresented in this regard. It would be akin to calling Bernie Madoff a "poor investor". Quality . . . like science . . . deals with quantifiable and verifiable fact. | ||
| Court |
These "MADE IN USA" conversations alway remind me of when Irwin announced they were moving the Vice-Grip production to Mexico and China. I went straight to Home Depot and bought all the MADE IN USA Vice Grips I could find. It's haunted me to this day . . . every time I go into any tool store I have to check the Irwin Products . . .they seem to all be China or "Built in Mexico with parts from lord knows where". | ||
| Tpehak |
I usually try to buy everything Japanese, cars, bicycles components, electronics, tools. (Message edited by TPEHAK on October 21, 2020) | ||
| Pwnzor |
I've got to be honest here... I buy what's in front of me if it's what I need at the time. I pretty much get everything I need from Amazon or Costco. If, directly in front of me there is a Made in the USA option, I'll buy it, but that's a very rare situation. As explanation for the above, I'll just go on record as saying that CUSTOMER SERVICE is the #1 MADE IN USA item I'm looking for, and I can almost NEVER find it. Every day, I give my customers 100% of my best efforts. In addition, I'm always trying to add value to the work being done so that they will CALL BACK and use my services again. Where real customer service exists, my dollars are being spent. With some very rare exceptions. Here's an exception. Gretchen and I love wine. We especially love wine that is made from the grapes that grow in the ground where we live. Georgia has excellent wine. We have our favorite wineries, and one in particular stands out in terms of quality, customer service, the whole experience. Then, we became friends with the purveyors outside of the wine maker/consumer relationship. We quickly found out that they are hardcore Bernie Socialists, BLM, Antifa, etc. We were able to get past those things with bile in our throats, but the wine is really THAT good, so we curtailed our extraviniferous dealings with them. Then, we found out that they are not only supporters of abortion on demand, but they feel that human life is entirely meaningless. The wife actually says that unwanted babies are merely inconvenient tumors to be cut out of the body on a whim. That was the last straw. Since that discovery we have not been back, their cell numbers have been blocked, and we advise others of everything we know. We still tell people how fantastic the wine is, because that's only fair. Others can make their own decisions. There is plenty of other wine in these mountains. Back on topic. These days, the only real Made in USA option is service. Until manufacturing comes back in a big way, US Citizens in the middle class have very little choice as the USA options often cost 2-3 times more than Chinesium. | ||
| Hootowl |
“extraviniferous” Thank you for that, Matt.  | ||
| 86129squids |
Me too- I like new good words! " ... but they feel that human life is entirely meaningless." Given that they make such high quality wine and are so good at marketing it, how can that be meaningless? A great friend, former boss, and current wine rep I know has a beautiful tattoo on his upper arm that reads... "In Vino Veritas". Your winemakers have a very unfortunate kind of blindness there. | ||
| 86129squids |
Oh, and it needs to be said... Court, here and in other threads lately, you're a font of "accurate statements". I appreciate the way your mind works, as presented in your comments throughout BW. Thanks, man.  | ||
| Greg_e |
Can someone get me on the $200k a year NYS retirement plan? I'll be lucky to get $40k if I can make it another 13 year (30 years in). | ||
| Pwnzor |
That word was made in the USA. (Message edited by pwnzor on October 22, 2020) | ||
| Hootowl |
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| Court |
Thank you. I've a keen grasp of the obvious. | ||
| Blake |
Down with the CCP. | ||
| Blake |
On topic: Lots of alternatives to the CCP supply chain in my recent experience. The only quality product I am obliged to purchase that are made in China are Apple Computer products. Nothing else of major cost. Our Bosche washer and dryer are made in USA; television is Mexican Sony; sound system is S. Korean/Samsung. Fancy Washlette toilet seat is USA, but fixin' to be upgraded to Japan/Toto; firearms are American and European; ammo is American, Mexican, Serbian, Italian, Czech, Bulgarian, and Russian; optics are American and Japanese; power tools are American with a few Japanese Ryobi; hand tools are American, German, and Japanese; knives are American, German, Japanese, and Swedish; new toilet is American; fancy vacuum cleaner is German Mielle, fancy and silent new kitchen faucet is German made in Spain; new cast iron porcelain sink is American; recent resupply of abrasive paper for the shop is all American, Troy Built mower is USA; none of my shoes or clothing is MIC save for some ball caps, yes including the MAGA caps, LOL. I can't remember the last time I purchased a neck tie; I still have a number of them tagged "Made in Hong Kong" from before the transfer from British to Chinese sovereignty. None of the lawn and garden tools are MIC. Copper bird feeder is USA made; copper bird bath too. Pressure washer is Troy Built USA made. I think I may have had the virus a while back though, made in China. Trailer hitch ball on Truck is from Taiwan; Kitchenaid dishwasher is USA made as is the mixer, food processor, blender; dining table is hand made here in Texas with Italian made chairs; end tables and rocking chair are hand made in USA; fancy floor and table lamps are Italian. I think the new ceiling fans may have been Chinese, possibly Mexican, not sure. Anyway, there's plenty out there still not made in China and I'd implore us all to pay attention and seek it out. China is our very determined rival/competitor who is seeking out global dominance, and their attitude towards human rights is pure disdain. Have no doubt. It's the little stuff like light bulbs and cheap hardware that are unavoidably MIC. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/10/i s_china_now_in_control_of_our_flow_of_information. html Light bulbs and Propaganda. Chinese imports dominate. | ||
| Ducxl |
I recently sold my X1 to fund a logsplitter purchase. I REALLY wanted the 30 ton Iron and Oak at $3600 but had to settle for the Tractor supply Company 40 ton at $2000. | ||
| Sami |
Pwnzor: "Where else can you get a hammer for $3.00 that will do everything a $30 hammer will. And if it doesn't, you can always buy nine more." I once (well, twice) bought a meat hammer from China. Broke on me, twice. I'm not planning on buying nine more. I still use it for what's worth:  Interesting review on a $5 Chinese wrench vs. a $35 USA wrench: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bytkgeo9Q1g His advise (from 15:47 onwards) is worth listening to. I have to agree with him, it is better to buy a quality tool, you will cherish and look after it, and it will save you money in the long term. There is also the "joy factor" that comes with buying quality products. What do you cherish more, a 5 dollar watch, or your dad's quality watch? (Message edited by Sami on October 24, 2020) | ||
| Court |
Therein lies the problem . . . . We’d welcome the CHOICE to buy American or otherwise. I am trying to buy some drones and, under federal regulations, they can have NO Chinese electronic. Ditto about $190M worth of equipment (relays, CCVT. And such) I can sources some in Austria, German and Canada but for the bulk of the items I am left in a difficult situation or having to seek “sole source” exemptions. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Court - your situation embodies the entire problem. I'm "just" a consumer - you are attempting to do BUSINESS, and due to our Nation's bullshit policies and corrupt politicians, we've been sold out. Business owners - and contractors - are painted into a corner. One hand has contracts that lock out Chinese products (good!); the other hand is unable to find anything BUT Chinese products. Why? Because our corrupt politicians, and their lobbyists, have brokered back-room deals that have locked out American businesses and made it fiscally impossible to be successful in our own home market. That, is pathetic. We as a Nation should be ashamed of ourselves. | ||
| Sami |
As a nation you were betrayed. Betrayal is not something to be ashamed of, it is something to learn from. Learn that you cannot trust politicians and lobbyists who do not put your national interest first. They are traitors, not Americans. | ||
| Pwnzor |
What do you cherish more, a 5 dollar watch, or your dad's quality watch? Anything my dad owned is more precious to me than any other item I now possess. Of course, my dad didn't buy any $3 hammers. I think you may have missed my point, and I wasn't necessarily speaking for myself - although I'm also not excluded, as I have purchased much Chinesium, and I'm not saying I won't. If I have a choice directly in front of me, there are several factors which come into play. Let's say I need to pull a steering wheel today. The last time I did that I was 19 years old, or thereabouts. In front of me, I see two steering wheel pullers: $15.99 HF Chinesium brand, or Snap On $158.00. Which one do you think I'm going to buy without any hesitation? I think most other people who will likely use that tool maybe one more time in their lives would do the same. Snap on tools (I have no idea where they're made, nor care) are wildly overpriced, and I was just using them as an example because I knew there would be a huge disparity in price. Sure, I'd love to see the Chinesium stuff either disappear or perhaps be in the neighborhood of the other tools in terms of price. On the other hand, maybe Snap On could move back into the land of reality. Side note on Snap On: I used to dispatch tow trucks, and a lot of the drivers were ex-cons in poor credit situations. The Snap On guy would come to the shop twice a month and let these people have whatever tools they wanted - on high interest credit terms. It's predatory, and it makes me sick to think of it. Might even warrant a new thread. | ||
| Court |
Tell me why Snap-On is vastly over priced. Why do average working mechanics buy Snap-On? Mostly just curious. At the time that Boluva Accutron was sold it was far more expensive than other watches .. (workin* from memory may be wrong) | ||
| Tootal |
I've been turning wrenches all my life and I must say, buying quality tools keeps your knuckles a lot less bloody! Growing up we always bought Craftsman tools and in the old days they were good. Later on though they got sloppy. Finally, after having another Crapsman wrench slip I went out and bought some Wright tools. I like the design and they're cheaper than Snaponium. I've never slipped again! A real joy is working with quality tools. I do own two snap-on tools because nobody makes spark plug sockets like snap-on. They're 3/8" drive, or you can use a wrench on the hex machined on the top. There is also knurling on the side so you can turn it by hand easier, but most of all, it's magnetic instead of some cheap rubber glued in there that falls out. Having said that, if you don't wrench for a living then you must weigh the cost. If you're doing a one time job and will never need that tool again, then go buy a chinese POS and get your money's worth out of it. I don't blame you for that! | ||
| Ourdee |
Snapon because of the delivery service and financing. The well stocked store comes to you and allows you to shop while on the clock. I like snapon's tools. The fit and weight is right in my hand. That being said, nearly all of them have been stolen from me over the years. I still have the 10mm box end, LOL. The tools are over priced. | ||
| Ratbuell |
shop while on the clock. Yeah...that's great. Especially awesome when I have customers lined up all through my reception area and in my waiting room, and I walk out into the shop and it's a freakin' ghost town because all the techs are out in the damned SnapOn or Matco truck. I'm all for quality tools - I get that. I used to be a Crafstman guy back when they were a) made in the USA and b) had the lifetime warranty. Didn't have to use it much, but when I did, it was nice to know it's there. But the lending practices for SnapOn and Matco are...predatory. Period. These are young guys, just getting started, little to no credit (and little to no financial knowledge), buying tens of thousands of dollars in tools, at crazy prices and exorbitant finance rates. They'll be in debt for their entire lives. Sure, if they're smart, they know they can write off some of the expense from their taxes...but how many 20 and 22 year old mechanics do you know, who are that familiar with our tax laws? |
