| Author | Message | ||
     Falloutnl |
Who the •••• is 'Barry'? | ||
| Zac4mac |
really??? Barack(Barry) Obama....... | ||
| Falloutnl |
So... How do you guys feel about Trump being firmly in Putin's pocket? I mean, bunch of hardcore patriots like you guys, that shit's gotta sting. Right? | ||
| Crusty |
Is Trump really in Putin's pocket? Or is that the hype that the outgoing racist and his cronies want you to believe? | ||
| Ourdee |
Roelf Kromhout, | ||
| Falloutnl |
I admit, with all the misinformation that's very purposively being spread by all sorts of parties, it's hard to know what's real anymore. But with Trump's refusal to share his tax returns, Manafort's close ties to Russia, Putin's known preference for a Trump presidency, Tillerson's Russian order of friendship thing (and vested interest in a lift of the sanctions against Russia), the latest scandal with Russians having leverage on Trump in the form of sexually explicit videos, Trump's fairly active sabotaging of NATO, etc. etc. Fairly credible sources reporting on that stuff too. Publications with a 'liberal' slant, but of sound journalistic integrity. So yeah. You tell me. You really guys really think hosting emails on a private server is somehow worse than successful Russian meddling with your elections. Like actual communists interfering in what is supposed to be your most valuable good as a nation: freedom, democracy and all that? /edit: that film was cool as hell, Ourdee. And yes, that is my name. Good to meet you. /edit2: also, honest question, how do you feel about the Iraq war? Cause the version of that scene you posted ends prematurely: https://youtu.be/jlokCn3j8B0 - the world certainly is not what it seems. Though yeah, Shooter probably shouldn't be used as an all that valuable source of information for discerning gentlemen such as ourselves. (Message edited by falloutnl on January 16, 2017) | ||
| Crusty |
Well, considering who was running against Trump, I definitely think he's the lesser of two evils. Or are you endorsing a "Pay For Play" corrupt career politician? | ||
| Hootowl |
"but of sound journalistic integrity" Name one. | ||
| Sifo |
I just wonder, someone who doesn't get the obvious reference to BO, calling him Barry, how well informed are you really on our politics? Do you know why Trump never released his tax returns? There is a very simple and valid explanation for that. Trump in Putin's pocket? Based on what? Successfully meddling with our elections? Not really. At most, did what our lap dog press should have been doing. | ||
| Hootowl |
"At most, did what our lap dog press should have been doing." Bingo! If it was, in fact, the Russians, it's pretty sad that a foreign power has to be the one to tell us about our corrupt politicians. The dems deny none of it, they're just pissed off that they got caught. | ||
| Falloutnl |
"Name one." I like The Guardian (UK) and The Washington Post. "Well, considering who was running against Trump, I definitely think he's the lesser of two evils. Or are you endorsing a "Pay For Play" corrupt career politician?" I think she was actually the lesser of two evils. Wouldn't necessarily endorse her though and I don't understand why the democrats counted on her to win instead of someone like Sanders who actually did have charisma and a message that could have appealed to both parties (if such a thing is even possible in an incredibly polarized country). Lets just say I get why people went to extreme lengths to not vote for Hillary. The 'pay for play' thing however, yeah, it's awful but not a new thing in politics. Is Trump much better in that regard? He's assembled the richest ever cabinet in US history. And guys like Tillerson (formely of Exxon mobile) and Mnuchin (formerly of Goldman Sachs), that's some money (soon to be protecting money) right there. /edit: I got the Barry reference, not to worry. Just think it's kinda lame. That's a great president you guys had there. Sad to see him go. (Message edited by falloutnl on January 16, 2017) | ||
| Sifo |
someone like Sanders who actually did have charisma and a message that could have appealed to both parties That right there makes me question everything that goes on inside your head. Sanders is a radical left wing candidate. Trump is, at best, slightly to the right. The fact that you think for a second that a radical socialist has a message that resonates in the least with a conservative, tells me you have no clue what you are talking about. Not meaning to be rude, but that's the facts. | ||
| Sifo |
And if Trump is in Putin's pocket, how did BO get virtually no scrutiny, when a bit over 4 years ago, he said to Putin, that after the election he would be able to be more flexible, or something to that effect. Never even questioned! | ||
| Crusty |
Yeah, I know. Assembling the most successful businessmen in their respective areas of expertise to advise the president is a foreign concept to most politicians. Someday, take a drive down the Henry Hudson Parkway into Manhattan. With the Hudson River on your right, notice the long row of buildings on your left side that say TRUMP in bold lettering. I guess it takes a really incompetent businessman to build such a large complex in one of the greatest cities in the world. If he does half as good a job as President, this country is in for some great times. | ||
| Sifo |
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| Falloutnl |
"That right there makes me question everything that goes on inside your head. Sanders is a radical left wing candidate. Trump is, at best, slightly to the right. The fact that you think for a second that a radical socialist has a message that resonates in the least with a conservative, tells me you have no clue what you are talking about. Not meaning to be rude, but that's the facts." You're absolutely right when it comes to me not understanding or realizing just how conservative or anti-socialist (maybe?) parts of the US are. I do however think that his policies would have had a decent shot at improving lives specifically those people who would so vehemently oppose him. You guys probably already know I'm from Europe and over here his (Sanders') ideas aren't all that radical. They seem logical and - as more and more jobs are going to be disappearing due to robotization/automation - nothing less than absolutely necessary. Or is the problem that you are afraid you're going to be taxed to death when you finally strike it rich? "And if Trump is in Putin's pocket, how did BO get virtually no scrutiny, when a bit over 4 years ago, he said to Putin, that after the election he would be able to be more flexible, or something to that effect. Never even questioned!" I don't remember that particular remark. I'm not sure it is as damning as all the smoke that's been emanating from Trump and some of the men behind his campaign. However, at this point it's all still alleged. So perhaps I shouldn't have said 'firmly in Putin's pocket'. /edit: Listen, I understand I'm not changing anyone's mind here and I'm not even an American, so what the hell right. But I do share a forum with you guys and I thought that maybe it'd be interesting to stir the hive a little bit. See if we can't talk about some of this stuff. (Message edited by falloutnl on January 16, 2017) | ||
| Sifo |
Falloutnl, no disrespect at this point, but you have, in a very short conversation here, shown numerous points of fact that you are simply ignorant of. Pardon me if I don't immediately jump on board with your conclusions. | ||
| Falloutnl |
Well, not entirely ignorant, I hope. It's just that keeping up with all this shit is a full time job at this point. Convincing you of anything with what few facts (and totally opposing viewpoints) I do possess is of course not happening. No matter though, you guys are alright, just - for my sake - don't go too hard on Obama. I truly believe he meant well, and has done well (considering he was saddled with the biggest recession since f'in forever), except for that whole mass surveillance thing... which is a rather sizable blemish. Not sure though how much of that you would attribute to him and how much to the legacy of the Bush admin and the patriot act. (Message edited by falloutnl on January 16, 2017) | ||
| Pwnzor |
don't go too hard on Obama. I truly believe he meant well, and has done well Meant well? Done well? I think you mean he meant to appear to mean well. And by "done well", you mean he accomplished his personal, no-so-secret goals. That's what you meant, right? | ||
| Falloutnl |
I'm sure I don't. But like I said, we're not likely to see eye to eye on these matters. At least we can agree Erik Buell makes a great ••••••• bike, right?  Hope you guys'll still have me over for a beer if I'm ever passing through your neighborhood. You can definitely hit me up if one of you ever plans to visit the Netherlands. I'll buy you a drink. I will leave you guys to it. | ||
| Mtnmason |
That's a great president you guys had there. Sad to see him go. Sure, if you're anti-Capitalist/anti-White/pro-Caliphate, it's a damn shame he can't seek a third term. edit/ whoops - forgot anti-Constitution. That's a big one for him. (Message edited by mtnmason on January 16, 2017) | ||
| Sifo |
We seem to be operating on a very different set of "facts". No doubt, I would be very ill prepared to discuss the politics of your country. BO is the first President to never reach a 3% growth in GDP. He's also the first President to spend 8 years at war. Economic conditions for the black community are demonstrably worse now, compared to when he entered office. Same can be said for the middle class of our country. Not that I think it's a good metric to use, but it's one that the left loves... The gap between rich and poor has widened under BO's rule. It's a poor metric because if everyone situation improves, the gap can grow. Of course, the poor and middle class didn't see their situations improve over the past 8 years, so the gap grew for all the bad reasons. Our international relations with friendly nations has become very strained. We are dropping bombs on more nations than I ever remember in my lifetime. Government agencies have been weaponized against BO's political opposition to the point that the majority of Americans have a general distrust of government. I'm not really sure where he's done well. As for the recession, it was winding down when he came into office. Historically, when you have a serious down turn in the economy, it will be followed by robust growth. We have bumped along with barely positive growth. It's a historical anomaly. The reasons can certainly be argued, but not the basic facts. This was a very weak recovery. So weak that the per-capita GDP has declined during BO's administration. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Falloutnl, I think I see what you are saying, and even agree with it to a point. See if this tracks what you are thinking... Sanders was a liberal leftist democratic socialist. But he was pretty honest about it, and logically consistent with his positions, and at times genuinely willing to consider diverging from party dogma for something he believed true (for example gun control, where he was still pretty left, but not "flat out ignore the constitution" left like most Democrats). So between Clinton, Sanders, and Trump... Sanders was clearly the most principled candidate. The next important question was if those principals were correct, and a true libertarian or fiscal conservative would say "no". Sincere, but wrong. If Sanders had won the nomination, it would have been a REALLY interesting run against Trump. Though to be honest, if Sanders was winning the nomination, I doubt Trump would have made it so far. Without the trainwreck of arrogant and open corruption that was Clinton, Trump would have been crushed by several other Republican candidates. It that big of a F-U from the democrat party to the American people to provoke us into electing such an abrasive and unrefined president elect. It is only when you are faced with a massive bully that another bully (but one on your side) appeals to you. In terms of "influence", Obama broke that wall when he sent US taxpayer dollars to help one of the Israeli candidates campaign, and openly campainged relative to the Brexit. Obama taught us that it doesn't matter, like Clintons taught us morals don't matter, so they set the stage for an amoral manipulator like Trump. In terms of who helps the Russians, Trumps eagerness to work a deal with them doesn't match the Clinton desire to line their own pockets while selling out the countries interests (selling Uranium rights). Or both Clinton and Obama accepting MILLIONS from foreign influences. Even if Trump did everything accused, it pales in comparison to the obvious and massive conflicts of the Clinton foundation. Personally, I think Trump and Putin are looking forward to each other for (a) a good negotiating contest and (b) make some serious freaking money for both countries (both public and private). They know they are sharks swimming with a lot of fish, and they respect each other, but they both know, there are a LOT of fish to be eaten here. | ||
| Sifo |
You guys probably already know I'm from Europe and over here his (Sanders') ideas aren't all that radical. They seem logical and - as more and more jobs are going to be disappearing due to robotization/automation - nothing less than absolutely necessary. Or is the problem that you are afraid you're going to be taxed to death when you finally strike it rich? This somehow seems relevant... As robots take jobs, Europeans mull free money for all Where does the free money come from in your world? | ||
| Sifo |
Just to help get Falloutnl up to speed... | ||
| Pwnzor |
Hope you guys'll still have me over for a beer if I'm ever passing through your neighborhood. You can definitely hit me up if one of you ever plans to visit the Netherlands. I'll buy you a drink. Absolutely. Conversations are more fun when people disagree. Hell, you can stay at my place for a few nights, got plenty of couch space and a great selection of wines and whiskies. | ||
| Sifo |
So we are supposed to have our panties in a wad over Putin, who still hasn't been proven to have actually turned over information to Wikileaks, and there is certainly evidence to the contrary. Yet we are supposed to be accepting of foreigners like Soros dumping cash into our electoral process by the train load. Now it looks like his son will continue the process. Soros’ Son Quietly Steps Up as Major Liberal Donor I'll just quietly sit back and wait for the outrage from the snowflakes that are having hissy fits over Putin's supposed influence.  | ||
| Macbuell |
I truly do not understand those who support the Free Money ethos. Those systems simply do not work and are not based in reality. Every economy that has turned to large socialistic programs has suffered as a result and some have even failed. Look at Greece. The only countries where it has had any success are countries with large natural resources to support the expense and small, slow growing populations. Many European countries might be in for a rude awakening as the refugees start to tax their social systems. The problem, as Margarat Thatcher put it, is where does the money come from. Eventually you run out of other peoples money if you continually tax them at high rates and disincent people from working harder and earning more. And you cannot just print money to cover your expenses. Eventually that leads to inflation which could lead to hyperinflation and the collapse of your currency. See Venezuala. The idea that you can just give money to your citizens without them supporting the countries financial system or GDP and just leaching off of it is just pure fantasy. And a very dangerous one. | ||
| Ourdee |
I've been working all my life for "FREE" money. Except I call it retirement. And is it free if I worked for it. I had a job 10 years ago babysitting robots. My babies replaced 50 hard working men on one shift. They then worked another 14 hours and didn't take any breaks. Now here is the dilemma. If you were to give away the wages saved by the robots, What is in it for the robot's owners? What incentive is there for any new owners to show up and employ some new robots that they have to keep up, with no realized return? And finally, I kept those ........ running. It was a lot of work, concentration, due diligence, always listening for the odd sound, watching banks of monitors, etc. If you told me that the money I was making available by keeping those men out of jobs/professions was going to Joey so he could smoke dope and lay on the couch all day for free, I would have walked off. Free money is a myth. |
