| Author | Message | ||
     Torquehd |
Hogwash, I'd be surprised if anyone sees any political candidate as 100% ethically correct. Trump was the anti-globalist, anti-clintonian, anti-2nd amendment repeal, anti-state run media choice, plus a few other things. | ||
| H0gwash |
With apologies to thread drift, I'm not sure if President Trump will be the same as Candidate Trump. | ||
| Blake |
Arablest. First, you're conflating a bigoted view of a group people with an event/behavior. It's not about people. It's about participation in an event that people view as sinful. Second, it's important to be able to distinguish the actual tenets and doctrines of a religion from the selfish agendas of evil men. Please remind me, what group was it that fought so effectively for the abolition of slavery? Why? In the case of the those who so obviously abused scripture in trying to justify treating other people like cattle, the case is clear that doing so was the act of greedy self-interested men and in no way justified by Christ. You would just as credibly argue that the behavior of priest pedophiles shows that Christ endorses that morally outrageous behavior. It's not about the people. It's about being forced to participate in a singularly unique event, same-sex-weddings, that is at issue. Nothing else. | ||
| Blake |
Patrick, So you're afraid of a debate? Huh? Check this out: Kevin Harris: We are looking at some great questions at the website ReasonableFaith.org, Dr. William Lane Craig’s website. There are questions that people submit that Dr. Craig chooses from time to time to answer. There is a good one here, Dr. Craig, on how God can be the ground of morality or moral values. Let’s talk about this question. We’ve dealt with this a lot, your articles deal with this, it comes out in your debates quite often. It asks how God can be the ground of morality, can somehow ground moral values? | ||
| Blake |
Gerard, Sin is wrong. Anything that runs contrary to God's nature is us lying about Him, the Supreme being and our creator. See the big ten for a start, understanding that they all flow from two, in brief, Love God mightily and thoroughly, and Love People. | ||
| Aesquire |
Blake. Afraid to debate?  Happy to. Dr. Craig's idea that "good/will of God"-the virtues (justice/compassion/etc) are self evident. To him. He skips a bunch of steps in his logic. ( I do agree with him ) The win win scenario, in gaming terms is best. See The Prisoner Dilemma. Can good be determined by natural laws & human nature? ( can't tell if Dr. Craig thinks this or not ) | ||
| H0gwash |
For the purposes of this argument I will accept your 10 commandments as objectively and morally right. Would we sue to cease the Argentinian incestuous wedding immediately? How far are you willing to go with this new objectively moral standing? Shut down the mosques? | ||
| Torquehd |
Can good be determined by natural laws & human nature? Not if entropy is real; not if the universe ends with a great crunch. Human nature says "me first". If you want a good snapshot of human nature, look at little kids before they learn right and wrong. My daughter is 19 months old. When she doesn't get her way, she sometimes hits, usually throws herself on the floor. That is human nature. My 9 year old son thinks that, when he doesn't get his way, it's fine for him to scream vanities and hit his door. He thinks I owe him whatever he asks for. You can carry it on further - when a boy becomes old enough to learn what sex is, he thinks it should be just fine for him to have sex with anything female on two legs. At least, I did when I was 14 or 15 (thank God my learned morality prohibited me). At some point, you have to learn that your wife and kids won't be your wife and kids if humanism is your compass. Human nature says, "if it feels good, to it". "do what thou wilt". That's the source of racism, genocide, theft, broken homes, liver cancer, the spread of aids, totalitarian regimes, disinformation... feel free to add to the list of really bad things for the whole of humanity. It all stems from abuse of power - abuse of self worth. It all comes from pride and elevation of self. Elevation of a human. Elevation of a creation rather than the Creator. There may be some very basic moralities ingrained in all of us, but most are not. "It takes a village to raise a child" - Children don't evolve into responsible, actualized members of society without some outside guidance. Morality is learned, not natural. Shut down the mosques? The answer to the problem of islam is not legislation - it is a major shift in the general perception of islam. Part of it is the PC culture which is being forced down our throats by the left. Part of it is simple lack of information or lack of care by the average citizen. But you can be sure that, as islam grows, so will violence against all who disagree with islam. There needs to be a massive expose of the evils within islam. Average folks need to be free to openly say, Islam is a source of all kinds of evil and I won't have anyone in my community forcing anyone to change anything to accmmodate a stupid religion. take that religion and stick it where it belongs. Right now, in many countries (even in some European countries), you face legal repercussion for simply openly disagreeing with islam. It needs to stop, yesterday. It's already too late. Mainstream culture is already embracing it on the precept of political correctness; on the precept that traditional values are wrong simply because our fathers held them and therefore we should be open to everything that our forefathers were not. (Message edited by torquehd on December 11, 2016) | ||
| Blake |
Gerard, Nah, I'd just ask that others not be forced to participate in or support the service. That's the only real issue. I'm pretty libertarian politically. People want to call themselves married, that's up to them. Just please get the boot off my neck for disagreeing and not wanting to join in the celebration. | ||
| Aesquire |
HOgwash, Me, I don't buy all ten commandments. ( not my faith.... ) I usually refer folk to the George Carlin rant... it's on YouTube. I don't agree with George, either, in all details, I'll just mention one. The exclusive religion rule. No other god but me. You have to buy the whole package to agree to that one. ( & I'm in violation so... self serving opinion ) The Argentine case? None of my business. Wouldn't lift a finger to protest or object. Don't know, or want to, the personal details. Mosques? That violates religious freedom. Feel free to try and enlighten Muslims and refuse to accept anything but truth when discussing the War. You'll have to ask the Druids for their take. Ditto other faiths..... In fact each person, individually. I don't claim to speak for anyone else. | ||
| Aesquire |
Torque, I agree > 98% with your "mosque" answer. | ||
| Torquehd |
What's the outstanding 2%? | ||
| Blake |
Patrick, Craig is a theologian as well as a philosopher, so he adheres to the definition of God as the maximally great being. In that maximal greatness is the necessary inherent locus of the good. Without that inherent goodness, it wouldn't be maximally great. But that is just to say that "the good" is God, the very core of His unchanging eternal nature. So we can know that God is the plumb-line basis for the existence (philosophers say ontology) of objective morality. But that says nothing yet about what philosophers call "epistemology", how we may know God's nature such that we can discern those moral values and duties. From nature? Partly maybe, but mostly not so much. Creation testifies to the glory of God. If by nature you include our built-in moral sense, our conscience, then yes, until we fog it all up behaving contrary to it. Then we need more direct instruction, see the big ten. | ||
| Blake |
Believe me, I fogged my conscience up pretty badly as a young man, so much so that I'm still suffering the effects. Thinking myself wise... | ||
| Torquehd |
And if 10 are too complicated, see Matt 22 :35, "Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." I've got to admit, most of the time I'm too self absorbed with the busyness of my own life that I forget to love others as I should. And as to the first - man... ALL heart, soul, and mind? i WISH I could say that I lived accordingly. Thank God for grace and forgiveness through Jesus Christ. | ||
| H0gwash |
Torquehd- I agree that children must learn morality at great cost but at great benefit, but I believe that the 10 commandments come in a generic version. I think the first several commandments are largely branding protection and self promotion. Also Mike's anti-baptist hustling life on the streets of LA largely brought him back to a generic version of the 10 commandments. I don't think that the "human nature" is limited only to thinking of the self. I believe human nature can learn that the self is better off having a place in a healthy tribe entirely outside of a Christian context. Corruption and evil in churches and scripture is not limited to Islam, it exists in all churches because man is imperfect. | ||
| H0gwash |
I think that churches should practice the specific scripture that they preach, but I don't think they should impose their view on the general public thru their businesses which are NOT churches. There are christian churches and businesses that are not offended by practicing homosexuals so the perceived offense is not universal. If you're so offended by anything you already have the option of calling in 'sick to the stomach.' (Message edited by h0gwash on December 11, 2016) | ||
| H0gwash |
"...Anything that runs contrary to God's nature is us lying about Him..." If we were to govern the US by the 10 commandments, would cops no longer be able to threaten to kill those who would? I would be horrified by that. (Message edited by h0gwash on December 11, 2016) | ||
| Hootowl |
Shalt not kill is a mistranslation from Aramaic to Hebrew to English. Shalt not murder is more accurate. Self defense, and the defense of others, is perfectly acceptable. Pretty sure the Hebrew text says murder. | ||
| H0gwash |
I could agree with that then, and the love thy neighbor as thyself, as universal truths I suppose. | ||
| Aesquire |
2%? More "sins of omission than anything. Here's a slight correction... It needs to stop, yesterday. It's already too late. Mainstream culture is already embracing it on the precept of political correctness; on the | ||
| Aesquire |
... the love thy neighbor as thyself... Pretty much the heart of modern Christian thought. As a guide to life, even exclusive of the "love God" part. ( although you will get much argument about that. That without the Deity there can be no love. YMMV, please read all warning labels. ) Also a Wonderful straight line for many jokes.... ( like... "unless your neighbor's husband objects" etc. etc. )  | ||
| Aesquire |
Torque, Ways to look at history are as forces, groups of people, ideas, technology levels... etc. Ideally a synthesis of all of the above. We've been at War with Islam for hundreds of years. Feel free to cite colonialism, etc. as contributing factors. Simply Islam is, by the Book, an intolerant religion built for world conquest, and dedicated to it. We've been at war with "Statism" for over a century. It's a combination of the Olde Worlde "divine right of Kings"/God King/Hereditary Aristocracy/Chosen Ones/Etc. notion that has been exploited since we started villages. And the Marxist ( although he gets too much credit, Lots of people developed this cult ) overthrow and replacement of the Old Aristocracy, with the New Men... Essentially a ripped off intolerant faith created by modern man, for.... world conquest. Stolen from and a subversion of Christianity, Islam, and modern Liberal humanist western philosophies. ( which are in turn Christianity with the serial numbers files off, and human ego painted over the labels. ) Both of the above Wars are on the notions that man is important as an individual, freedom of thought, and essential human rights. We ( modern western Civilization ) assert that people have equal rights ( despite them being all different in capability and desire ) no matter their origins. We don't believe that the son of a King is inherently better than the son of a carpenter. Note. ( that the son of a King may get an education in King-ing and be better at it than a carpenter's son, is an individual thing... not inherent in the births.... Rich kids can afford better schools... what they do with that opportunity is another matter. ) Of course that attitude, that people have individual freedom, is horrible if your goal is to rule them and take their stuff. | ||
| Blake |
Gerard, >>> I think that churches should practice the specific scripture that they preach, but I don't think they should impose their view on the general public thru their businesses which are NOT churches. Who is "imposing" upon who?  Are you saying that Christian individuals are free to attend church and believe/think as they like, but not live according to their faith? Huh? Should a vegan baker with a vegan bakery be forced to put butter and lard into his cakes? How about bacon sprinkles? Should a gay baker be forced to make a cake quoting scripture that calls homosexual behavior "an abomination to God"? It seems we're still talking past the actual issue. Should a baker be forced to create theme cakes that he doesn't want to create, that trouble his conscience, for instance, a cake with artwork glorifying adultery, or theft, or cursing? >>> There are christian churches and businesses that are not offended by practicing homosexuals so the perceived offense is not universal. If you're so offended by anything you already have the option of calling in 'sick to the stomach.' Universality of agreement among any group is rare. Not sure of the point. We pass laws with a bare majority, and elect a president with not even a majority. Hah!  Repulsion is not the reason Christians decline to participate in same sex weddings. Those same people are not repulsed; in fact they happily serve all people. They happily sell their storefront baked goods, birthday cakes, and all the rest to LGBT and all others, no questions asked. They respect every person. They just cannot in good conscience participate in an event that they feel is a celebration of rebellion against God. The same folks would likely refuse to provide artwork celebrating any kind of unrepentant sin. It isn't about the individuals, the customers. It is about the requested artwork constituting or participating in a rebellion against God. People should be free to refuse creating things or participating in events that they view as rebellious towards God. That is just to say that Christians should be free to live their faith. (Message edited by Blake on December 11, 2016) | ||
| Blake |
Great conversation by the way. Gerard, "I think the first several commandments are largely branding protection and self promotion." If what is being promoted is the very foundational basis and the infallible source of creation, goodness, truth, knowledge, and love, then how would it be okay to not remember, honor, and respect it? We would only be hurting ourselves by failing to do so. We don't even take kindly to abusing, ignoring, or disrespecting our parents! Hmm. "Honor mom and dad"! Seems there's a theme. We tend to anthropomorphize God. It's a huge mistake. When we fail to acknowledge that which is truly sacred, we only harm ourselves. God, family, truth, justice, love for others, all sacred. | ||
| Torquehd |
It is about the requested artwork constituting or participating in a rebellion against God. I would even specify that it's not just participating in; it's officially endorsing. There's a difference between struggling with sin and campaigning for it. Businesses in a free and open market should be able to endorse what they will. The state is not forcing me to buy ideological cake, and the state should not force me to sell ideological cake. That's just a half-step away from state mandated ideology. In North Korea, you can only have a haircut style that is authorized by the state. In many countries, only bands that are sponsored by the state can perform music; only news agencies sponsored by the state can publish news. Yeah, that's less than a step away. Hootowl, Leviticus was written in Hebrew; Aramaic came later, but the common text bibles like KJV were translated directly from Hebrew. I would be mighty careful of saying that the bible is wrong. I'd say look at your understanding, rather than assuming the bible is wrong. Of course this argument is for the believer; I do not expect the nonbeliever to take my word that the bible is infallible. I wish they would but I can't expect them to. Aesquire, as a fan of Medieval European and Scandinavian history, I was shocked to discover how offended I am by this notion of "royalty" while watching my daughter's Disney princess cartoons. The "royal family" is elevated to extrahuman status, and regular lowlife worms like me and you have to bow our heads and address them as "your majesty". I find my great offense at the notion of submitting to a king in sharp paradox with my great appreciation for military chain of command. They seem very similar, yet military grades are (in theory) acquired by merit and competency, whereas the monarchical class system is either appointed by bloodline or taken by typically violent force. | ||
| Aesquire |
I'm in the SCA, a nonprofit education group that re.... heck, Does the middle ages and renaissance. We actually don't reenact past battles with some exceptions. ( the Battle of the Thirty from the hundred years war for example ) Battles with us are more free form or tournaments. The history, arts and sciences we try to preserve. Making armor can be mechanized, for example but then you lose the art of dishing etc. So I've spent lots of hours with a hammer. Ditto most of the arts. Weaving, pottery, roof thatching..... all done faster & cheaper now but some want to understand the deeper art. Like casting pistons. ( see World's Fastest Indian ) AND.... we got royalty. But that part is the game, consciously played, mostly for pomp and play. But watching the game, it's like any social group with factions and divided loyalties, the whole soap opera show. The best part is you can mostly ignore the politics... and the second best is Kings & Queens are decided by tournament of arms. ( spoiler, it's not a superior way to chose leaders. But fun ) As a modern Citizen I'm not, in real life, a subject. ( my bank might argue that ) & with history perspective plus watching it in play & reality. Royalty is horrid. Just ask Kim Jon Ung's uncle. Or the guys they erased from May Day Celebration pictures at the Kremlin. Try a Ouija board. So.... you are correct. Imposing an aristocracy is.... evil. | ||
| Torquehd |
OK - sorry for the thread drift, but Patrick, I'd love to come hang out with you and soak up some knowledge. One of these days I'm going to get around to building a forge. I've dabbled in chainmail and hardened leather. I went to an SCA nerd hangout one time; I've done some very basic learning in traditional swordplay (George Silver and Christian Tobler) (plus 3 years of Chinese Kungfu) so I thought, I'll be fine. Those guys dressed me in armor, handed me a shield (which changed everything I knew about handling a sword), and proceeded to beat the crap out of me. I expected to be able to hold my own. I landed some good blows, but not as many as I received. Flails are evil and defy science, when your science is based upon sword only. (Message edited by torquehd on December 12, 2016) | ||
| Aesquire |
Don't feel bad.. I often see Kendo guys expect to dominate in SCA fighting and be rudely surprised. Otoh, I get my butt kicked in Kendo. Rules & limits are different. See "battle of nations" a European tournament series using armor & blunt steel weapons. ( I also know most of the U.S. team that.... did well. SCA guys. IIRC the 2015 team leader is a SF officer at his day job. I see him every year. ) Tai-chi myself, plus a dilettante sampling of other styles. Armored weapons form is the art I've stuck with the longest, over twenty years. ( SCA ) I'm waiting to hear from my ortho doc on if he'll let me go back to play with my new titanium knees. I still teach. I don't like to beat up new guys.... much. Like any martial art the Sensei has to first establish that he in fact has something to teach, that he is worth listening to. Traditionally one begins with total dominance, "effortlessly" blocking attacks and striking at will. This sets up the beginning of the "Master-student" relationship. The goal of a good teacher is for the student to be better..... to snatch the pebble. Feel free to contemplate the parallels & similarities with spiritual teaching. And the differences. You seldom today get the attention of daydreaming students with a quick touch up with a Kendo sword...... like my Tai-Chi Sifu used to. | ||
| Hootowl |
Torquehd, I'd be careful of translated text. The original language is subject to interpretation by the translator. For example, later versions of kj say murder, not kill, because now they think it's more accurate. What changed? Not the original text. |
