| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
Big news is an all-new 8-valve oil/air cooled V-twin. http://www.harley-davidson.com/content/h-d/en_US/h ome/motorcycles/2017-motorcycles/touring.html Kevin Cameron article on the new engine at Cycle World: http://www.cycleworld.com/harley-davidson-motorcyc les-new-milwaukee-eight-big-twin-engine | ||
| Ducbsa |
From the KC article, I wonder what "a self-torque-boosting clutch" is? Also, I know some '30's Brit bike heads had bronze skulls, any since? | ||
| Tootal |
Watched the video and it was more about looks than function, go figure! Sorry but until they properly balance, weld and zero their cranks I want nothing to do with a modern Harley. My old 2002 still has a forged crank that's within .0005" runout and bearings that will last forever! They've been making them cheaper and cheaper ever since! | ||
| Uncle |
"more about looks than function" Isn't that Harley's mission statement?  | ||
| Etennuly |
HD seems to target 40,000 miles for their initial fail point. I know several people who did not have their HD engine last past that point even with proper care. Sometime in the future, I can for-see where a class action suit could be brought against HD if it could be proven that they set that target goal in a board meeting as a tool to sell more bikes or engines. Just my opinion but I feel that their lack of improving things like what Tootal mentioned is completely intentional. | ||
| Arcticktm |
Vern, even if they intentionally made 40k their durability target, how would that be grounds for legal action? They don't promise anything beyond warranty coverage. I'm usually the last guy to defend Hardley Ableson as a corporation, but I also don't think they promised anyone a certain mileage for average engine life. I also hope you are wrong because my Uly is approaching 40k miles... | ||
| Arcticktm |
...and I am resisting (until now) the urge to congratulate H-D on embracing such a cutting edge engine design such as a 4 valve cylinder head. the mind wobbles... Maybe they have to VERY gradually introduce these things (semi-water cooled, then 4 valves & dual injectors a couple years later, maybe quietly extend the water cooling to the cylinders in 2019 or so) to avoid shocking their main customer base, since they have had such a hard time with "all-new" bikes like the v-rod and now the smaller bikes launch. H-D is the classic victim-of-their-own-success story in Marketing and Design. Still, lots of other companies would like to have H-D's problems. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Harley Davidson: Turning fuel into noise without the pesky by-product of horsepower since 1903! | ||
| Torquehd |
In my 4 years at a dealership, I only saw a few built motors that spun the crank and required welding. The solution was simple, paying a machine shop to weld the crank. The step up to 6 speed was a huge improvement. A built motor can make decent power, even for a heavy weight. If I was in the market for a cruiser, there is no way I'd ever consider a jap bike, or even a victory or indian, over an FLHX. I don't like that HD dropped Erik and team, but that doesn't mean they don't build good heavyweight cruisers. | ||
| Tootal |
A crank should never spin from the factory. At first the reason Harley went with a silent chain for driving the cams was because of gear whine or clicking. Later they stayed with it because the cranks had so much runnout they couldn't use gear drive. They even had to make the front motor mount harder to take the vibrations from the bad cranks! Sorry but they just don't make them like they used to, and that's not a good thing! I've seen the insides of a Victory engine. Wow, it was beautiful in comparison! No damn primary chain, they use gear drive and the compensator nut is on the center gear. No adjustments or wear. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
HD and the "Lifestyle" blows. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I've seen the insides of a Victory engine. Wow, it was beautiful in comparison! Well, the one really big plus for the Victory and Indian engines is having one-piece, forged crankshafts instead of that steam-locomotive-like pressed together crankshaft HD still uses, a requirement if you're going to use roller rod bearings. I wonder if HD has ever seriously considered ditching the roller bearing bottom end? I remember back around 1970, someone offered an aftermarket solid bearing replacement for Sportster rod bearings. The mag road tested a Sportster with this bearing and claimed it vibrated noticeably less and it seemed to be just as reliable. | ||
| Tootal |
It would work fine but only if they put a real oil pump in there! It takes a lot more oil pressure for a babbit bearing. | ||
| Ducbsa |
Ford Model A main and rod bearings are poured babbit bearings and are only gravity fed from the valve chamber. There are pressurized conversions that use the stock pump but just give it some restriction to raise the back pressure. I'll bet the stock HD pump wouldn't need much to make it suitable for conventional crank bearings. In fact, I'll bet a nickel that their R&D has something ready to go right now. (Message edited by ducbsa on August 25, 2016) (Message edited by ducbsa on August 25, 2016) | ||
| Dwardo |
So did Hudson in their 8 cylinder and earlier 6 cylinder engines, and they worked fine. A lot of other cars did, too. As I recall, the piston-type oil pump in old Triumphs was nothing special and they ran plain bearings just fine. I don't see any particular reason for H-D to cling to the roller crank, it just adds expense and makes it a specialist job to get one apart. | ||
| Froggy |
They can only do so much progression at once, you don't want to piss off their "core" buyers with a normal crankshaft. They are lucky nobody really threw a fit about being semi-watercooled now | ||
| Hughlysses |
Did somebody say Hudson?  | ||
| Dwardo |
Is that yours? That's a nice one! Twin-H, power steering, windshield washer bottle. And head studs rather than bolts. I recently sold a '53 Hornet and a '54 Super Wasp. I think I'm out of that for a while. BTW, this engine has a full pressure oiling system with a very robust oil pump. | ||
| Tootal |
The engines you guys have mentioned were all low compression engines. The higher the compression the more oil pressure is required. A stock BMW automotive engine runs 70 psi at 4000 rpm. Around 40 at idle. Their cams are running in aluminum so that also requires more oil pressure. I'm thinking a long stroke V-twin has a lot of pressure on the crank bearings. Since most Harley riders ride at low rpm the Roller bearings will last with low oil pressure. A babbit bearing would need higher oil pressure at low rpm than a Harley oil pump could provide. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
What kind of bearings do Vrods have? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Is that yours? That's a nice one! Twin-H, power steering, windshield washer bottle. And head studs rather than bolts. I recently sold a '53 Hornet and a '54 Super Wasp. I think I'm out of that for a while. BTW, this engine has a full pressure oiling system with a very robust oil pump. Edward- Unfortunately, that one's not mine. I do have a 1953 Hornet Club Coupe with Twin-H that's in dire need of a full restoration. I had it about 70% restored and fully drive-able ~15 years ago, but I let it sit up too much which led to problems and now I pretty much have to start over again. I'm retiring at the end of this year, and I recently completed construction of a 3-stall garage, so restoring (or resto-rodding) my Hornet will be high on my list of things to do. | ||
| Hughlysses |
What kind of bearings do Vrods have? Conventional split shell bearings, like virtually all modern engines. | ||
| Dwardo |
I would kill for a coupe. There was a '54 coupe for sale at the Orlando national meet and it was nice looking and priced reasonably. It had a burned valve but I didn't see a problem with flying down and fixing it and driving it home. Why I didn't buy it I don't know. Probably because I had just bought my house but I regret that. | ||
| Tootal |
I'm curious to know what type of oil pressure the V-rod has. Also since the Big Twin engine uses a knife and fork rod set up, maybe that's another reason they stay with roller bearings. On the ammonia pump out compressors I used to rebuild they wanted 70 psi of oil pressure so when it was at 30 inches of vacuum you still have 40 psi left. They were 6 cylinder with two journal cranks and three rods per crank with babbit big end rod bearings. However the crank was like an old Harley, double back to back Timkens on one end and roller bearing on the other. | ||
| Dwardo |
Well, one thing is that as far as I can see, the only way to get both cylinders in the same line, you have to use a knife and fork. To do otherwise would be "un-Harley". I don't see a knife and fork working with a plain bearing, although I am only an armchair engineer. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Yeah. The knife'n fork thing must be the reason. So the Vrod is side by side like a Ducati or a SV650? The 1125 are side by side too, I remember. | ||
| Hootowl |
http://www.tpub.com/engine3/en3-51.htm Plain bearing knife and fork rods. | ||
| Dwardo |
Huh. I'm not a Ford guy but I vaguely remember my father telling me that Henry's flathead V8 had some weird bearing arrangement that I think was two-sided. | ||
| Adrenaline_junkie |
My local Harley shop just called to let me know that they now offer an adjustable fork kit and piggyback shocks in the parts book for my Sportster. All 2004 and up I think he said. Compression, rebound and preload drop in units for the forks. Same adjustments on the piggy back shocks. Obviously not rocket science but a definite change in direction for Harley. Lets se here; water cooling, the new Roadster, 4 valves per cylinder and tunable (performance?) suspension from Harley-Davidson. Yep, Hell has frozen over. I know all of that stuff exists on the V-Rod and the Street series, but we all know those aren't REAL Harleys. | ||
| Zane |
Wonder if these changer were able to be made because the "stylist" Willie Davidson retired. Perhaps he was the one keeping HD out of the 21st century? |
