| Author | Message | ||
     Aesquire |
think Big Business and religion may only be in the same sentence if there are an odd number of negatives in there.  Three word cliche, so IT fits your definition. You can argue that any organized religion tends to become a business and source of a living for the executives, no matter how pure the beginning. Pournelle's Iron Law Of Bureaucracy applies. Some religions started with one man with a vision/revelation/hallucination/great insight. Others are a construct from the beginning as a tool to manipulate people. Not all, but some. While I can't tell you what really went on in The Prophet's Mohammed's brain while he wrote his poetry over the course of decades in what is now Officially his Divinely Inspired Word Of Allah That Cannot Be Questioned, the change in his attitude and the shift in emphasis is obvious if you read his shtick in chronological order. ( In the Koran it's in Verse Length Word Count order, don't ask me why ) What starts out as "you jerks just don't get it, god doesn't want pomp & gold plated temples, he wants you to live right" slowly goes to serious OCD "how to run your life hour by hour in excruciating detail" and a psycho Sun Tsu "How to conquer everyone in the name of god". Islam has been called a Barracks Religion intended to manipulate people with promises of Glory and placate the oppressed with promises of Paradise. Seems pretty accurate to me. That "promises of paradise" bit was ripped off from other religions. Looked at cynically, Cartoon Heaven ( nominally Christian, sorta, clouds, halos, harps ) was a promise of an end of constant labor. Mohammed's Heaven was an adolescent boy's version. You're not allowed to drink or smoke pot, But you Can in heaven, and no hangovers! You shouldn't be a glutton, But you Can in heaven, you never get fat and never get full. And never forget the Houris. Perfect female forms, angels, forever hot, forever virginal ( that is a major clue to the sex hangups of The Prophet ) never say no, your spirit never has a hard time getting it up, and you can have great sex with a pile of gorgeous hot horny for as long as you want then they go away at a whim and don't need cuddling or anything so you can get back to partying with your fellow martyrs. 13 year old virgin boy heaven. With a major wink to horny old men who can't get it up anymore, and jerks that can't get laid anyway. Then, just for amusements sake, consider Scientology, which began as a bar bet between science fiction writers on who could invent a new religion that was convincing enough that people would actually, seriously join it. Then it became a profitable business, the Founder dies mysteriously, and the Head Acolyte takes over and runs the scam to immense personal profit. See "Stranger In A Strange Land" for a slightly disguised L Ron in the person of Foster the dead and embalmed on a Throne in the Temple, founder of the VERY profitable religion that bears his name. "Stranger..." was written over many years. The original idea, "A Martian Named Smith" came first, then a long time passed, and it got dusted off to work on that bar bet, then dusted off again, reworked as sarcastic social commentary & warning. So if it seems a schitzy work, it sorta is. Written in three different frames of mind over decades. (Message edited by aesquire on June 30, 2016) | ||
| H0gwash |
Hello Blake- I am a gay man, that is all. Back in the 1980s when I first became aware of it, it seemed like a huge deal. Nowadays the kids are like YAWN. Had I ever met Jesus in person I probably would have fallen head over heels. Beautiful man, great eyes. Instead, I met a lot of his crazier modern followers who claimed AIDS was god's punishment for gays and they were generally really really obnoxious. That is why I avoid churches, for the bad apples. Had I known that Metropolitan Community Churches accepted gays back then things might have been different. So yes there is no god for me, only strange abstractness. Perhaps I have been broken that way. Around here in CA the Christians generally only look at the new testament, but currently there is a young pastor here pointing back to Leviticus as justification for killing gays. Fortunately other pastors have joined the demonstrations against this one pastor. | ||
| Aesquire |
Yeah. That's been the subject. Westboro so called church has been rejected by the mainstream ones and only threat of lawsuit keeps the "News" from pointing out their scam. ( family of lawyers who sue folk for disrespect or evil looks or pushing..... you can't actually join. They go seriously annoy people to get a lawsuit. ) Your local guy will take time to marginalize. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The "God Hates Gays" stuff was pretty marginal even then, it was only the whackos that ran around spouting it. It would have been very hard to be gay in most Christian churches in the 80's. Probably still hard, but better. Don't confuse Westboro Baptists as any kind of Christian. They are lawyers who have created a business model of abusing the first amendment to provoke a response, and then monetizing the response via litigation. It's just a slimey business model by awful people. | ||
| Hootowl |
Yeah, Christianity is just a cover story. | ||
| Aesquire |
Smart one too. They can claim religious freedoms AND First Amendment Freedom of speech. Freedom of speech, don't forget, really only applies to stuff people don't like. IF they like it, it's not even a question. It's the guy complaining about the status quo who needs the right enforced. So, they go to funerals and are as offensive as humanly possible. I suppose they could defile actual animal carcasses but as far as wave a sign and spew hate on tv goes, they understand & exploit the limits. Of censorship and tolerance. Then when you breath on them, they sue. Family business. I suppose grave robbing just doesn't pay today. | ||
| Hootowl |
I am not an advocate of violence, but if I was on a jury for the trial of someone whom had taken a shot at those bastards, the perp would walk with probation. | ||
| Blake |
Hogwash, You're in a tough situation. I don't think you answered one of my questions. What if Jesus is who he claimed to be? | ||
| Torquehd |
Hogwash, Jesus was not a comely man. Isaiah the prophet said, "He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him." In fact, he made a lot of enemies and pissed off a lot of folks - both Jews and Pharisees, as well as gentiles (anyone who's not a jew/hebrew/israelite). The Jews wanted a physical earthy kingdom. The pharisees wanted to keep their power and false doctrine. The gentiles wanted to continue in their pagan ways. BUT, the Jews, who were supposed to be God's chosen people rejected him en masse, while a great multitude of "pagans" started following him. A "get out of hell free" card? I'm in. Blake is hitting the nail on the head. IF Jesus was who he said he was - one with the Father, able to forgive sins, The bread of life that whoever believes on him shall not taste death; IF he had power to lay down his life and to take it up again (The only person who can raise himself from the dead), AND claim his rightful position at the right hand of God. Then, that does change everything (in regard to all religions and beliefs of the world). Hey, the Word of God states time and again that homosexuality is against God's will. So is drunkeness and lust (those are my personal pitfalls and I face them daily). Sin is beautiful and enticing, otherwise it wouldn't be sin. BUT, Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it. Guess what, I'm going to sin. But according to what Jesus said, because I believe in Him and confess Him before men, He will confess me to the Father, and I will live forever. The first death is an illusion, a mere curtain. The second death has no power over me. I am immortal. By the grace of God. Ah don't want to drift off topic... Compare that to muslim doctrine... Yeah I'll take that over Mohamed (the murderer and pedophile) any day of the week! If you find yourself not welcomed into the religion that rapes little boys, cuts off womens genitals, locks men into cages and sets them on fire; then by God, pull up a chair and sit at the table to which ALL are welcome! Jesus said "my yoke is easy and my burden is light". We make it hard; i make it hard every day. Going back to what Alfau said earlier, if I could just learn to live in compliance with the Word of God, I would be perfect and not a thing of this world would trouble me! It's an endless quest, but the quest does not save. The intention of your heart is what saves. That is easy and light. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2016/07/sellin g_the_orlando_murders_as_a_gungay_issue.html What happens when two of the D Party support groups has one that murders the other with glee? It's not just a river in Egypt. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2016/07/made_i n_our_image_the_appeal_of_moderate_muslims_.html Worth the read. This is why I, like Barry, don't use the term radical Islam. That is an imaginary thing. Obedient Islam is factual and accurate. My reasons are I believe you have to understand the enemy to have hope to defeat them. If we didn't understand that the Japanese in WW2 were motivated by securing natural resources for their growing industry & to feed their population we would not have pushed the quiet but vital submarine war against shipping and the war would have taken years longer and not ended in surrender even if we nuked every city. Obama doesn't use the term because he doesn't want you to know the truth. It's his religion. Taqiyya or Apostate and treasonous? Hard to tell same results. There will be more attacks. Obama will blame you. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/11/pew_po ll_between_63_million_and_287_million_isis_support ers_in_just_11_countries.html | ||
| Rick_a |
News to me, but even internal documents of terror watch list suspects were scrubbed or deleted of anything mentioning Islam or terror. WTF, over? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqfaZZ8jNfU Our administration is criminally bonkers, all the way to the top. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Torquehd, you speak my language. Love to meet you some time, buy you a drink. | ||
| Court |
These folks are a bunch of idiots . . . . I think it's perfect license for the normal American to "scrub" a few official government documents. | ||
| H0gwash |
If Jesus is the son of God then they both can see into my mind anyway and they know my motivation. They can see that I'm taking care of the sick and old and if God is an unforgiving god I'm screwed. I imagine this is a similar answer to what most christians would give if asked what if there is only Allah, or Bhudda, or PANGU, etc. Believing in the afterlife if accepts Jesus thing doesn't work for me. If it works for you, great, I won't get in the way unless you think that the only way to get to heaven is to shoot every muslim you think you see, and in that case I'm only getting in your way metaphorically, not literally. Pretty boys never did it for me. I thought they had too much to gain by hiding their intentions and actions. Ugly guys who don't care about looks don't have that temptation so I've always liked ugly guys with beautiful minds. | ||
| Aesquire |
Nerds & geeks. I keep telling girls that. There's a great line in "Revenge of the Nerds" .... Betty Childs, Pi-Delta-Pi: [blissfully] Oh, Stan. You were wonderful. You did things to me you've never done before. [Lewis takes off his mask] Betty Childs, Pi-Delta-Pi: [gasps] Ahhh! You're that NERD! Lewis: Yeah. Betty Childs, Pi-Delta-Pi: [blissfully] Oh, you were wonderful. [gasps in ecstacy] Betty Childs, Pi-Delta-Pi: Are all nerds as good as you? Lewis: Yes. Betty Childs, Pi-Delta-Pi: How come? Lewis: 'Cause all Jocks ever think about is sports, all we ever think about is sex. Thank you IMDB. Most organized religions have the basic "our way is the One" and the notion that different subdivisions are doomed souls, much less the ones with very different world views. Since ALL of them have that... it's Branding. Standard Sales technique Crest is better than the Chinese copy made with propylene glycol. Oh, wait, it really is! Ok Better than Colgate. Difference of opinion, taste is taste. I was brought up with 3 different brands of Christian Churches, I've checked out Shinto & Buddhism, read the Koran, know Wiccans, met Druids, and chose Asatru. I Don't try to convert anyone, but will answer questions. I do tend to argue with the ( Atheist who rejected his elders teaching but hasn't bothered to figure out anything past the "na na na na...religion is stupid, you're all stupid stage". ) That's obviously not you. I'm pretty much totally accepting of other's faiths, no matter how silly they seem to me. Some like FSM Pastafarians are supposed to be silly. A form of social commentary. But when the basic function of a religion is to mess with me I have no fear of pointing that out. I also point out the ones that In My Opinion, are major rip offs. The difference is consent. If you join a cult that takes half your pay to clear your spirit form or build a temple in the preacher's bank account, I may mock or complain. If you convert by the sword, I'm against ya. To be honest the Culture of pre-medieval Islam would inspire me to bitch about it even if they weren't blowing up airports & clubs. But I'm also a Feminist, ( I like women ) and all for equal rights, rah rah. The current Administration torques me off by refusing to admit WHO the guys blowing up clubs & also publicly torture execute ANYONE they don't like a tiny bit ARE?. To be fair a lot of idiots in a lot of governments have the same problem. | ||
| Aesquire |
Favorite metaphor for truth & God. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_oQkSh2lq8 The fellow in the door is the Doctor who belongs to a faith that believes that every religion might have a bit of Truth in it and should be studied. He asked if it was ok to attend a lecture...... The lecturer has unwillingly become the religious leader of his people after he was taken as a POW and tortured...... and while he was gone they read his diary, thought it mightily Profound, and published it... Which is hilarious. Fun show, binge watch all five seasons. enjoy. | ||
| H0gwash |
I think there is a lot of tolerated variation between the pure academic form of a religion and what is practiced in the local neighborhoods far from the cultural center. If a neighborhood were to practice an impure version of their religion by dropping the requirement of killing infidels and was able to maintain the peace for generations, is that a bad thing? | ||
| Torquehd |
If the neighborhood KKK clan stopped lynching blacks and wanted peace, would that be a good thing? The difference is, the KKK was started by vigilantes to fill the vacuum left by nonexistent law enforcement in the south after the civil war. It was derailed by wicked men. Islam was started by a wicked man, and the wicked doctrine will never disappear (EDIT: The wickedness of the Klan will never disappear either, and it is best to not exist any more). The Obamanation has accurately pointed out that anyone can get online and "self-radicalize" (what he means is pick up a qran and live in compliance with the qran). Islam has never lost its violent core teachings. Muslims have strayed from their faith, but once the islamic purists roll into town, those backsliden muslims will have no choice but to go along with the freakshow. I could never even impartially support such a wicked, wicked religion. Humanists at least believe that they are helping humanity. Islamists believe that they are destroying humanity, and they're exactly right. (Message edited by torquehd on July 02, 2016) | ||
| Sifo |
I think there is a lot of tolerated variation between the pure academic form of a religion and what is practiced in the local neighborhoods far from the cultural center. If a neighborhood were to practice an impure version of their religion by dropping the requirement of killing infidels and was able to maintain the peace for generations, is that a bad thing? Hogwash, are you referring to a specific religion, or all religions in general? You have made several statements that, to me, sound like you make little distinction between different religions. Things like a religion having to do with your "tribe", with only minor differences in doctrine. I'm really trying to understand where your are coming from on this, but really need to know exactly what religions you are referring to with such a statement, such as "dropping the requirement of killing infidels". | ||
| Sifo |
For all the talk of gun control, it's well known that gun control has failed miserably in Chicago. The Black Lives Matter crowd had the police backing off from actual policing of the neighborhoods hardest hit with crime. The results have been horrendous! Suddenly, there is a push to get the violence under control. A real effort at the local level, looking for a real solution. They are going after the people who commit the actual acts of violence. They are going after the gangs that have their turf wars. It may not make for a good bumper sticker slogan that can be used for a political campaign, but it seems that even the liberal leaders eventually have to come to grips with reality. You have to deal with human nature. It's not about the tools that humans create. Chicago police arrest 88 in raids, step up holiday patrols | ||
| Zac4mac |
What H0gwash said made me think of that village in Punjab where the Muslim majority built a church for their Christian neighbors. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-36509800 | ||
| Aesquire |
Obviously he's referring to Scientology. Their record since the dark ages killing those who disagree with them...... is non existent. Hmm. Ok killing those who rat out the leader's hypocrisy maybe. For a couple decades.... must not be them. ( darn, so much for Tom Cruise in prison ) Then it must be Wiccans! They...... get naked and dance while preaching tolerance. ... Hmm. Ok, got to be the Church of the Sub Genius! They..... do a tongue in cheek tax shelter..... hmm. No sorry, can't seem to figure it out. He can't be trying to excuse Putin? There's a death cult leader steeped in the tradition of mass murder and exporting genocide. Got a real mad on fòr gays and Jews........ No? Maybe he's just been conditioned never to.mention Islam because they actually will kill him ( and me, pagan, remember? I'm already on the kill list ) and he's simply being prudent for when Sharia is imposed in California. Many folk properly fear being murdered by Islam and therefore refuse to mention it. Insane denial or rational cowardice? Like many things hard to tell if result is the same. Btw, historically, that denial means you get murdered and your family enslaved. At least the last thirteen hundred years. | ||
| Aesquire |
Rick, hard to believe that institutional dishonesty is the MO of this White House? They've been baking this Chicago style deep dish pit of corruption since the start. Listing the criminal activities would take all week. Yes. Directly because Barry and his friends in the Muslim Brotherhood terrorist organization have erased all mention of Islam in the anti-terrorism hand books and put pressure on Law Enforcement to cover up Muslim Culture endemic crime, the Orlando jihadi was protected from "persecution" and allowed to murder 49 people because they were Gay. | ||
| H0gwash |
Hello Sifo- It is an open ended hypothetical "swords into ploughshares" argument, so the religion and the location of the neighborhood is intentionally vague. Feel free to assign any religion and neighborhood location you want to make any argument you want. I understand that world politics are way more complicated by this very kumbaya scenario. This is ultimately an open ended question about what is the limit of religious tolerance. Opinions will differ. "...If the neighborhood KKK clan stopped lynching blacks and wanted peace, would that be a good thing?" I think it would be a good start. Their very presence makes my skin crawl but I'm not sure you can say "kill em all let god sort them out" without being a perfect hipocrite. Ironically recently here in Sacramento there was a "kinder gentler arayan nation" demonstration which appears to have been attacked by a very aggressive and larger minority group. 7 were stabbed I think? It was described as the most violent demonstration at the CA capitol building here. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
"...If the neighborhood KKK clan stopped lynching blacks and wanted peace, would that be a good thing?" As best as I can tell the KKK is down to about 6 members and they no longer lynch anyone. Like the rest of America they are fat, lazy and stupid and the best they can muster up these days are passing out literature and the occasional rally on some courthouse steps in some backwater town. | ||
| Sifo |
Hello Sifo- It is an open ended hypothetical "swords into ploughshares" argument, so the religion and the location of the neighborhood is intentionally vague. Feel free to assign any religion and neighborhood location you want to make any argument you want. I understand that world politics are way more complicated by this very kumbaya scenario. This is ultimately an open ended question about what is the limit of religious tolerance. Opinions will differ. And this is what makes it insanely difficult to make sense of your ideas. You are pretty much equating the vile hatred you see in the world news to all religions. The reality is that almost all of it comes from a single religion, that has been at the center of such violence and hatred since it's inception. By ignore this reality, you essentially attack virtually all religions, even though most get along in the world just fine. As long as you do this, you will never get any agreement on what you are saying. It simply doesn't apply to the vast majority of religions in the world. I don't think that even Satanism can be compared to the evil deeds done by Islam. Consider that for a moment. | ||
| H0gwash |
I don't claim my ideas make sense to all, and I am fine with disagreement, we can't please everybody. Just sorting through my ideas on many things. Thanks for your sincerity. It seems that honesty is the hardest thing to come by nowadays. I do see violence from people with religion. Yet even if we were to get rid of all religion, violence would still remain, we would fight over money and political power maybe instead of religion. | ||
| Sifo |
I do see violence from people with religion. Yet even if we were to get rid of all religion, violence would still remain, we would fight over money and political power maybe instead of religion. On this, we very much agree. You need to separate those who are religious and commit violence from those who commit violence because they are religious. They are very different things. Even a pacifist like Gandhi understood that guns have their place. BTW, there's plenty of violence from people who "reject" religion too. I put reject in quotes, because you simply can't, not have religious beliefs. We all believe something on religion. |
