| Author | Message | ||
     Tod662 |
"And if there had been stronger regulations about mining waste ponds this travesty could have been stopped? Actually, had the EPA not broken the pond, this travesty would have been stopped." yes and this toxic lake would have sat there till when?, why is it ours as taxpayers responsibility to pay for cleaning it up? | ||
| Sifo |
Tod, did I make any claim of products on that list that shouldn't be? Why do you tend to not address the point being made all the time. Same with the toxic lake. Did I say they shouldn't clean it up? Of course not. I said they shouldn't spill it into the river. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"Organic Farming is not complicated. It just requires lots of BS to keep things fertilized."_G | ||
| Tod662 |
Sifo is your only point then that people need to know there are lots and lots of products used? Not whether or not they are safe? I guess im just a dumb lefty who can't see the questions being implied. You seem to expect me to answer questions that are not clearly asked, when I asked you what organic means, I believe you sidestepped that simple question, yet you expect me to articulate clearer thoughts. Im trying! and as much as you are befuddled by my thinking I enjoy getting a better feel for how someone with intelligence can have your views. Belly up to a bar we could probably get somewhere pretty quick, either laughing and finding common ground, or bustin bottles over each others heads!!  | ||
| Hootowl |
"Who left this mess sitting here?????" I have no idea. However, if the company or any of its owners are still around, you can bet the government is sending them a bill. Most of these sites are decades old and were created before the regulations were passed (and are often the reason the regs were written in the first place). That doesn't release the agency from liability for spilling the stuff. At lease, it wouldn't release a private firm from liability, even if they were only there to clean up someone else's mess. | ||
| Sifo |
Tod, you seem to be intentionally obtuse. Who is determining "what is safe"? We both know it's our government. We both know the government is telling us that the food produced under their regulations is all safe. Organic or not. Safe isn't what's at issue here. It's the organic industry that is trying to tell us that the rest of our food isn't safe. Of course, according to those responsible for looking at this issue, the organic industry is full of BS. What is at issue in our most recent back and forth, is public perception that has been created by the organic industry. The perception being pushed is a crop grown under the watchful eye of a farmer who pulls weeds and pests from the crops daily to keep it healthy. The reality appears to be quite different. On the safety issue though, I'm more than smart enough to know that organic doesn't means safe. If you question that, I'll invite you over for a nice organic meal of steak and shrooms. I'll pick some nice naturally growing shrooms from the back 40 that you will just love! I don't care much for the intentionally obtuse. | ||
| Hootowl |
And sometimes the gubment is just plain wrong. Or have we forgotten the transfat debacle? Don't eat butter and lard, eat margarine and vegetable shortening. It's made from vegetables! Maybe they're wrong about gmo too. I think not though. We've been modifying genes for centuries (brocolli doesn't exist without it) but it was trial and error. They simply know how to take the guesswork out of the equation now. I guess I'll take my chances with the 5 or 6 gmo crops that are grown here. Actually, corn and soy are probably the only ones I consume. Not much of a zucchini person. | ||
| Aesquire |
It's understandable that Tod defends "organic", since that's his rice bowl. How he makes a living. He makes some good points, although the apples to oranges points, for example, comparing dumb, ( short term attitude ) industrial bulk monoculture farming to smart crop rotation farming, costs some credibility. Also he hurts his arguments with the Buzzword/agitprop terms like "dead dirt farming". To be fair, many of us ( Me too ) use loaded phrases that may over or under state the real world effects. My opinion is.... Not long ago, "organic" was just a buzzword, ( as opposed to it's scientific meaning, carbon chemistry ) and you really had no clue if the "free range guilt free organic" food you bought at the store was actually a food with lower levels of herbicides & pesticides, or just bogus, emo-foodie labeling. Today there are regulations, some good, some bad, and you still can't be sure if what you buy is lovingly raised by hippie farmers, or carelessly processed by a heartless corporation. ( Hint, heartless corporations sell Organic stuff too... see the last decades e-coli outbreaks with "prewashed salad stuff" ) I maintain, based on experience, logic and statistics, that the vast majority of people that make/grow food care about delivering a safe, well made product. Smart people know that good products, good service, and a good moral stance creates repeat, loyal customers, and long term profits. There is, however, a minority that will rip you off, say, use cheap antifreeze instead of expensive artificial sweeteners in toothpaste,( real world example ) or sell "organic, buzzword, buzzword" crap that has no relation to what most would consider "real organic" anything. Since I'm a cynic, I tend to consider anything labeled "organic" as a probable con, and suspect that a fairly high percentage of such labeled items are just emotional marketing. I'd love to be proven wrong. From a political view, I often refer to the short sighted short term profit culture as "the Cult of The Harvard MBA", where each quarter, each month, each second, must show higher and higher profits, with seemingly no thought to long term profits.... Possibly best shown by this clip.... (Message edited by aesquire on August 10, 2015) | ||
| Sifo |
It's understandable that Tod defends "organic", since that's his rice bowl. How he makes a living. Of course he defends it. He is, as he would call it in describing someone else, part of the corporate industrial complex. | ||
| Tod662 |
Some valid points taken, as it just so happens soil health is a topic I find interesting and have been looking for a couple videos ive seen somewhere... and its kinda all of ours' rice bowl | ||
| Ducbsa |
More comment on the new EPA regs: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/08/is-t he-administrations-position-on-global-warming-scie ntific.php | ||
| Sifo |
I don't know how many bad sci-fi movies have been done where the government forges ahead with a plan of disaster while ignoring some scientist who knows better and is trying his best to get someone to listen to him. Well it looks like in real life, the EPA screwing around in the mines is the government plan. Now we have the lone scientist who was trying unsuccessfully to explain the impending disaster. Life imitating art?  | ||
| Tod662 |
its not as simple as big gubment bad (nor is it always good) https://www.hcn.org/articles/when-our-river-turned -orange-animas-river-spill | ||
| Aesquire |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retsof,_New_York The local 1994 mine collapse has had far reaching consequences, in time and money. In simple terms, they had been mining a layer of salt from an old sea for over a century, then the salt mine was sold to an international company, which thinned out the pillars of salt left behind to hold the 1000 feet of rock above, and part of it collapsed, letting the river above flow into the mine, flooding it, and collapsing it further. This shut off or contaminated local wells, and huge sink holes have appeared over the old mine site. They keep appearing, 20 years later. Yet we need salt, and mining it is both cheaper, and better ecologically than pumping vast amounts of sea water into evaporation ponds in coastal regions. Few people want to have a home near a brine lake, and sea side property is far too expensive to use in such a way. There is a new mine a few miles away from the old one. The owners of the new mine have made it clear that they are not planning to be stupid and greedy, and make a great effort to have minimal impact on the local environment, and major impact in a positive way on local jobs. Thanks for the article above, Tod. That fills in some gaps in the media lack of responsible coverage. Salt is not a mineral we are likely to find in microgravity in space, ( possibly on Mars, but I doubt it would be economical to ship ) but Gold, Platinum, and the other heavy metals are probably much more accessible in the asteroid belt than here on Earth, where they tended to drift into the core back when the planet was cooling. ( from the theoretical impact event that created the Moon ) It's worth noting that every single atom of gold, Uranium, Lead, etc, comes from the hearts of exploding super novae. In many cases, several times. Any element heavier than Iron is going to be rare in comparison to the light ones like Iron and Silicon. | ||
| Sifo |
No, government isn't always bad. They do however display remarkable consistency in being incompetent. From Tod's link...
I'm fully aware that mining for minerals is a dirty business. Try to develop clean energy without that mining though. It's a necessary evil. I've not seen any responsible accusations that these mines were operating outside of what was allowed at the time. Perhaps regulations can be changed to mitigate similar problems in the future, but that changes nothing of the past. The simple reality is that the EPA screwed the pooch. They didn't even warn the people downstream for days. Perhaps they were too busy making sure that the appropriate emails get lost. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I think the root of the beef here is that when the EPA is pointing the sharp end of the stick at somebody else, they aren't just interested in resolution and remediation, there is a clear agenda (perhaps a predominate agenda) of punishment and vilification. Now that the sharp end of the stick is at their own throat, they are making statements and taking actions that make the oil companies sounds like saints in comparison. Which just goes back to a topic well covered in this thread. Individuals, corporations, and governments are all capable of evil. Government evil is the biggest and worst evil. It scales the "best". | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.pjtv.com/series/afterburner-with-bill-w hittle-56/the-great-unlearning-how-our-society-bec ame-so-stupid-11210/ | ||
| Aesquire |
http://pjmedia.com/blog/why-did-the-media-all-at-o nce-proclaim-the-evils-of-air-conditioning/?single page=true | ||
| Tod662 |
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/american -consumption-habits/ | ||
| Hootowl |
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/13/opinions/cevallos-an imas-river-liability/index.html At least one Native American tribe is planning to sue. I hope the government will consent to be sued. The private company that was contracted to perform the task will most certainly be found liable. If the hiring firm were a private company, they'd be on the hook too. EPA? Not so much. | ||
| Hootowl |
"13 times more resources" Yeah, and Americans produce more per capita than any other nation. That average consumption includes industry. They knew that when they wrote the article, and used a quote form the Sierra Club to further their agenda, which is the old Soviet agenda that the Greens based theirs on...deindustrializing the West as a means to achieve victory over the US in the cold war. The war is over...the bad ideas live on. | ||
| Aesquire |
Hoot, I'd argue the war is not over at all. Authoritarian power over your life is still increasing. The Greenies are still doing some good and great harm to jobs and freedom. Putin has declared the Third Rome. ( anyone but me remember the last fellow to do so? ) Huxley's "1984" didn't have us buying our own cameras. ........ | ||
| Hootowl |
"Hoot, I'd argue the war is not over at all." The war ended when the USSR collapsed. Thank you Ronald Reagan. However, I do agree that the ideologies, and certain pet projects of the KGB, live on. | ||
| Tod662 |
Show me some statistics to back up your claim hoot, when I first read it I went yeah that's true, but quickly see holes in your thought. We import more than we export right? Please expand upon your contention that we have this great and mighty industry that is supplying such a bountiful horn of plenty for the rest of the world. Let's see if you can find any substantiating evidence instead of just blaming the commies. I'm pretty sure there are some small industrialized countries that would skew the numbers their way if all industry was included. Its one thing to say we use much more than developing countries but there is no excuse for this. "He adds that the U.S. ranks highest in most consumer categories by a considerable margin, even among industrial nations. To wit, American fossil fuel consumption is double that of the average resident of Great Britain and two and a half times that of the average Japanese. Meanwhile, Americans account for only five percent of the world’s population but create half of the globe’s solid waste.” And I've seen these statistics enough times, im sure it can be substantiated. there might be some validity to your thought but almost every person from Europe I talk to see's us as glutinous spendthrifts. And If we are so great and mighty with the sheer numbers of production why are the average worker not compensated as well as in many other countries? And you guys and your contention that anybody who cares for the environment is a commie nazi pig would be funny if you didn't really believe it. We can not continue to multiply and expect this earth to support us, but the people you listen to are more worried about short term mega profits for mega corporations over all other considerations. Is a future with less people but a better quality of life not a worthy goal. And I have to put this disclaimer because 3 of you will spout off about killing unwanted people. Its about less people being born not about trying to lower the current population. can ya'll comprehend the difference? http://time.com/3997388/earth-overshoot-day-2015/ and an aspect that makes want to puke related to my governor Scotty McTool http://www.isthmus.com/news/opinion/you-thought-wi sconsin-losing-high-speed-rail-was-bad/ though the funny thing is that by screwing us over economically to appease the Koke bros oil consumption, he may have preserved us ecologically. (the route of the eventual train connecting the 19 million people between Chitown and the twin cities is going to look like Gary Indiana someday) and the driftless area is special | ||
| Sifo |
I actually agree that the US is too much of a consumer nation. I find it kind of funny that our electric company mails out quarterly statements that compares "your" usage to your neighbors. I just got one the other day that said my electric usage is 49% of the neighborhood average. That's pretty impressive considering that we have the largest house in the neighborhood. I'm really not sure what my neighbors are doing. I'm just glad to not be spending the cash. It's not that everyone who cares about the environment is a commie, but it is a fact that the commies started the green movement to push their agenda in our country. It's just a political wedge issue that can be used to weaken our country. Funny, my wife just had a conversation with her brother about the population. He says that we need to set up population control like China has. My wife said that she didn't think that force abortions were such a great idea. He seems to be under the impression that they would never do such a thing. If you want to sound the least bit knowledgeable when discussing the evil Koch brothers, you should learn how they spell their name. | ||
| Reepicheep |
You keep doing stuff like that Tod, and it just serves to make your points, which aren't all stupid, look stupid. Of course a proper conservative cares for the environment. It is the responsible and wise thing to do. But they won't worship it, they will use it responsibly. And they aren't so much interested in great speeches and good intentions, they want to know if the math works. Conservative. Conservationist. Environmentalist now too often seems to mean a combination of exaggerated alarmist projections, poor math, good intentions, and poor execution. It is making environmentalists rich, I'll give it that. But I lump the Al Gore's of the world in with the Christian televangelists that get rich from the guilt and gullibility of their flocks. Same song, different verse. | ||
| Hootowl |
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp- per-capita I was wrong about the us being the highest, but it's 367 percent of the global average, and in the top ten, which are all close, and dominated by oil exporting countries. I must have been thinking about China vs. the US. Here's an idea...instead of trying to make Americans live like Africans, how about Africans try to live like Americans. People would be much better off. | ||
| Hootowl |
I'll get worked up over the Koch brothers when Tod gets worked up over George Soros. The Koch brothers build industries. Soros gets rich by destroying foreign currencies. | ||
| Sifo |
Here's an idea...instead of trying to make Americans live like Africans, how about Africans try to live like Americans. People would be much better off. There's a reason that people from all over the world tend to want to immigrate to the US. Under BO however there has been record numbers of wealthy folks that have fled the US. Coincidence? | ||
| Aesquire |
Stock fallacy. Don't buy the dogma of a legally recognized religious cult? You must want to murder children. Bite my shiny metal..... I'll point out the worst ecological disasters are not Cleveland's river catching fire, but the Soviet's incredible messes and Chinese air pollution that can be seen from space covering half a planet. Not to diminish the Real Serious problems of the Colorado river. I even think we need to shut down a badly designed dam. Killed a Sea lately? Russia has. What really makes me angry is false, deliberate panic mongering and con artists getting rich when sensible, REAL, things could be done to make things better. Like proper long term storage in glassified rock for mine tailings instead of making a time bomb by pumping CO2 into the ground. Don't any of these guys know basic chemistry? |
