| Author | Message | ||
     Hybridmomentspass |
riding doesnt work for me - too much weight on my back for most school days (this semester my mondays were only one class, so I rode when I could). But most days i have a 20lb bookbag + the hassle of leather jacket to lug around all day. I ride to school when I can, but its not often enough to where it makes a huge difference curious - how would it affect you (your business) if you knew the EXACT same car in another part of the world was rated to tow? We have a very over protective government, why they dont put tow ratings on some cars, I dont know, but the ones I'm looking at (and mentioned above) have hitches easily available and are rated to tow in other countries (hell, a hitch is a factory accessory option in some countries for the Fit.) | ||
| Sifo |
curious - how would it affect you (your business) if you knew the EXACT same car in another part of the world was rated to tow? I was looking at that exact thing a couple of years ago. Very confusing when a vehicle has a towing capacity in another country, but in the US there is none stated. If it were a country like Somalia, I would be pretty suspect, but when it's European countries, I know they are pretty safety conscious. The US OTOH is pretty litigious. I think that may answer the question as to what a business would do. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
And that sucks Sifo, its all about lawyer-ing up etc I agree with your post 100% actually, if it were some backwards place like mother russia, I wouldnt think much of it, but when countries like England, France, Australia, Japan etc have these SAME cars but with 1300lb+ tow ratings, I shake my head at how strict our rules are here | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
You miss out on the diesel options for the same cars too. Not to mention cars from the likes of Renault & Peugeot/Citroen from France, who make some outstanding vehicles, plus FIAT, Alfa Romeo & Lancia, though you're getting some benefit now through Chrysler & more to come, (The Alfa Giulia is a jewel). It's all because the US won't recognise European safety specs & the manufacturers can't generate enough demand to warrant the investment, coupled with the risk of litigation it's not worth the candle to them. It's a shame as you miss out on some cracking cars. | ||
| Ducbsa |
If U-Haul sells a hitch for your car, I would say it is safe, assuming you don't overload it. My take on the government involvement is that the car makers are required to declare their rating for each model and it is a business decision to not rate it, to try to avoid lawsuits from aggressive shysters. On another note, a buddy's '70's Gold Wing bent the rail slightly on my Holsclaw when he borrowed it! | ||
| Teeps |
Sifo Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2013 - 07:24 pm: If you are paying a dealer for routine maintenance on the Buell, the costs skyrocket too. Even a low maintenance bike like an XB can be surprisingly expensive compared to an economical car. I laugh at people who talk about getting a bike to save money. Maybe you can convince your spouse of that though. Roger that. | ||
| Etennuly |
Yeah, the legal problems to be had. I mounted a factory built hitch, with all of it's properly engineered hardware, onto a half ton truck. His towing capacity cannot be more than 8,000 lbs. Truck and hitch matched up. The guy comes back a couple of weeks later with a leaking tire for me to fix on his new trailer. It is an enclosed single axle 16' trailer. I go to jack up the rear corner with my 3.5 ton floor jack and it won't lift it! What the hell.....I had him open the door. He had about 12,000 lbs of equipment in there. The trailer was only rated for 5,000 lbs total. The leaking tire was worn through on the inside edge from where the over load had the axle bowed. This is the kind of shit that happens when customers(who lack the capacity to think)believe that weight calculations don't pertain to them. He said it tows 75 mph just fine!  Legal stuff.....you bet! Just follow this guy to the scene of the wreck! I have seen this kind of thing happen many times.  | ||
| Sifo |
Etennuly, Great story that I have no doubt is true. This is why it would be nice to have realistic towing capacities for smaller cars though. Currently they just don't rate them, but you can get a hitch for them. Now you're in no man's land trying to figure out if you can tow a small trailer with a 400 pound bike on it. Then you get the small trailer tires that are only rated for 45 mph! Why are they even allowed to sell those? | ||
| Hootowl |
"I laugh at people who talk about getting a bike to save money." I don't. In some circumstances (I've been in one) a cheap used bike is much more affordable than a cheap used car. Buying a NEW bike to save on gas doesn't make a whole lot of sense in most cases. I bought a used Shadow, and all I ever did to it was gas, oil, and tires. I used $65 rear tires, and got three rear changes out of each front. They were fine for beating back and forth to work, which is all I used it for. Oh, and I had to replace the clutch cable once. 55 MPG, $90 a year liability insurance (for a then 20-something, that's really good) and a $1200 purchase price. All in all a very cheap vehicle to own and operate. Much cheaper than a car would have been. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"Etennuly, Great story that I have no doubt is true. This is why it would be nice to have realistic towing capacities for smaller cars though. Currently they just don't rate them, but you can get a hitch for them. Now you're in no man's land trying to figure out if you can tow a small trailer with a 400 pound bike on it. " I found a site (i'll have to dig it up if youre interested) that was from Europe that had tow limits for a ton of cars, and then I did the conversion via google (thats where I got the 1300~lbs for a trailer with no brakes number). I can understand some are idiots and way overload their trailers and vehicles, I really dont want or NEED to tow very much, IF i do this I just wont use my enclosed trailer until borrowing my dads SUV or something, but dont really need to use it. Just got to tow bike, small trailer (which I'd probably buy a new trailer thats lighter and better for me to set-up my stuff) and a few things adding up to a max of 120lbs (most of which will be IN the car. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Do you actually need the seating of a car? If not, have you considered a 1/2ton pickup & a bed extender? Most occasions you wouldn't even need a trailer & hitches are readily available for them should you need. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
most trucks get crap mpg even v6,smaller trucks are terrible im assuming the way they are mapped and geared | ||
| Sifo |
I think it may have more to do with weight and aerodynamics. | ||
| Aesquire |
Sifo is right. The weight thing is obvious, every acceleration, every stop sign, every change in speed, is pulling every pound. In steady state cruise, there's a tiny increase in tire drag, which is important at the edges of the envelope, but not all that big. Except while under any acceleration, slowing speeding up or turning. Then it's a noticeable number. The Aerodynamics are in 4-5 parts that interact & add up. The profile drag or form drag, is a function of the size, and you figure that as the shadow of the front view in area. So a SUV is going to have more drag than a Civic. The other function is shape. Parting the air, letting it close back up behind you. That includes the interference of stuff like antennas, mirrors, and the turbulence they create. Also skin friction drag, which is affected by the above and adds to the numbers. There's also Induced drag, which is the energy taken out of the air for lift, or down force. This effect varies, from very little on most cars to a great deal on races cars with "aerodynamics". There's also a bunch of stuff like Reynolds Number, the "viscosity" of the air which is a function of scale. Not significant to this discussion. And other factors not germane. So simply, pushing a big brick through the air punches a bigger hole Plus bluff, un-tapered shapes that leave a lot of energy in the windstorm behind them. Gives you CD, Coefficient of drag. A VW Sportwagen has a CD of 0.31. A "typical truck", 0.6, Toyota Hilux, 0.44 '13 pathfinder 0.34 ( darn good ) Then you multiply by the Size number in Area for the total aerodynamic drag. ( simplified ) 'Nuff said. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coeff icient http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/Vehicle_Coeffi cient_of_Drag_List http://www.curbsideclassic.com/automotive-histories/automotive-aerodynamics-drag-area-size-matters/ (Message edited by aesquire on December 06, 2013) | ||
| No_rice |
94 plymouth acclaim 6cyl auto was my main hauler for years. put 100,000 plus on that thing(until i sold it in search of more mpg, put it managed mid 20's even dragging the trailer). and it towed frequently. even made a none stop trip to GA for march badness. and many trips to wisconsin etc with any where from 1-3 bikes on the trailer.  then the next trip to buelltoberfest was with my 95 saturn SC2 twin cam 5 speed. getting low 30mpg running 75-80 and mid 30's without.  then my 96 saturn SC2 twin cam 5 speed...  and my current main hauler. 98 saturn SL1 single cam 5 speed. will do over 40 mpg daily drive, and can manage mid 30's dragging a trailer. this pic was us heading to north eastern iowa, with the 2 bikes, car full of us and the kids, and all their weeks worth of summer camp gear plus all the riding gear. still managed over 30mpg with the air on.  all of those cars has hauled my trailer loaded similarly to this also more then once(this is behind my 04 tahoe when i owned it and was headed to florida to spend the winter.  then there is the current BIG hauler also when the need arises. 08 2500hd duramax.  people ask me why if i have that duramax that just sits in my garage (ive put 4-5000 miles on it in the 3 years ive owned it and just about to roll 60,000) why i use the car and not the truck. well, i dont have a problem using the truck when needed... but on a good day the truck will be in the low 20's for mpg and that being with more expensive diesel, the car will be atleast 30 and could be as high as 40mpg depending on conditions and load running less(hahaha) expensive gas. i did the math the year i took that teal green saturn down to ga, and it saved me a few hundered dollars on my trip simply by driving that instead of the truck, and that was a $600 dollar car. i figured if i blew the motor(which never even had a hickup) then id dump the car and ride home.... and when im hauling 2 bikes behind the car, i stagger one of the bike back a little farther more over the trailer wheels to balance the trailer a little better. with 3 bikes on that trailer, i can pick it up by hand and walk around the block with if if i wanted to. also, if its just me in the car on a trip, i put more stuff in the back seat and passenger side of the car instead of just shoving it all in the trunk. simply to distribute the weight within the car more evenly also. (Message edited by no_rice on December 13, 2013) | ||
| No_rice |
it could be worse! (no not mine!!!!!!!!)    | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
What the actual flying...... Wow. I love how carpenters make odd things out of wood like that. You KNOW a carpenter made that  | ||
| Reepicheep |
I had a SL1 and an SC2. Amazingly durable cars. | ||
| 86129squids |
Re: above pics...  | ||
| Sifo |
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| Hybridmomentspass |
So an update: I found out Thursday that my car WAS totaled. I was bummed and shocked. So I had considered trading in to get something more economical, and this will allow me to do so, but im on a time crunch which makes things suck. Looking at a 2012 Nissan Versa hatch with 40k miles, might be going to the nissan dealer tomorrow to check it out asking 10k, im getting over 6 from the insurance company for my truck | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
If you're buying knowing you're going to tow, get the biggest lump you can, which is a 1.8 in the Versa afaik, the smaller engines will struggle with a trailer on. Other things I'd be looking at are Mini (I don't like em, but they're a good solid car), or Ford Focus which are proven reliable & parts are cheap plus they're a hoot to drive. Again, if you want the economy solo & the towing capability, go for a bigger engine with a 6 speed manual. Unless you're doing all lightweight short runs, (which isn't your case) the smaller motor will nearly always be a false economy. | ||
| Kev_m |
I would second the VW diesel recommendation. My little bro pulls a Kendon trailer and bikes with his Golf TDI. And it gets unbelievable mileage with or without the trailer. I would NOT recommend a Mini for economy. I loved ours, blast to drive, but it just ATE CONSUMABLES (tires, brakes, etc.) The Versa would probably be fine (I currently drive a somewhat related platform - Juke). The Juke has similar tow ratings in the EU. Though I've not towed with ours I've seen reports on the Juke forum of those that do and they seen fine. Just heed earlier advice through this thread on load weight and distribution. | ||
| Etennuly |
The thing about No_rice is that Tim has a lot of common sense. He also has 'feel' for motor vehicles. MOST people could not get away with towing as he does without some sort of catastrophic problem. Tim, I'd bet you build and or attach your own vehicle hitch parts. I also often over do what a machine is intended for just in the case of getting stuff done around my property or my business. But I also have a 'feel' for mechanical things. If you are going to overload you must know how to under drive and be hyper attentive. As a business owner I cannot go beyond what factory specs are without concern for litigation from a customer who may make a mistake that gets someone hurt. As always.....everyone is cool until the lawyers and check books come out. If I build within engineered specifications it reduces my exposure. | ||
| Kev_m |
You call it overload and beyond factory specs, but if the IDENTICAL vehicle carries that tow rating in other markets, it's not the design that is being exceeded, it's the uber conservative US recommendations because we live in such an uber litigious society. (Message edited by Kev m on December 16, 2013) | ||
| Kev_m |
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| Hootowl |
My Jetta has no tow rating...in the US. HiddenHitch still makes a hitch for it, and sells it in the US. Sometimes I wonder whether the fact that the US won't rate most cars for towing, and the fact that we sell loads more trucks than they do in Europe might be related. A whole lot of truck buyers could probably get by with a car if they were honest with themselves about their needs. I used to HAVE to have a truck, until I found that my HF trailer and Jetta carry everything that I ever asked my truck to carry. And with 4 times the fuel economy. | ||
| Kev_m |
"My Jetta has no tow rating...in the US. HiddenHitch still makes a hitch for it, and sells it in the US. Sometimes I wonder whether the fact that the US won't rate most cars for towing, and the fact that we sell loads more trucks than they do in Europe might be related." Honestly, both myself and my little brother have looked into this on multiple vehicles/multiple brands over the year. There is a clear trend to, mostly passenger cars and small cross-over SUVs having higher tow ratings in the EU than in the US. I really think it comes down to lawyers and fears of litigation first and foremost. It's not like the EU doesn't have strict vehicle inspection laws or standards, they do. Many even more so than the US. Brands we've checked include BMW, VW, Nissan, and Subaru off the top of my head. | ||
| No_rice |
The thing about No_rice is that Tim has a lot of common sense. He also has 'feel' for motor vehicles. MOST people could not get away with towing as he does without some sort of catastrophic problem. Tim, I'd bet you build and or attach your own vehicle hitch parts. i do install my own stuff, and many times modify locations or different reinforcements to suit my needs/wants. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
The EU vs US thing rings a bell for me too. When I bought my 2007 Fit (jazz), I tried to see what towing options were available. none in USA but the english honda website had a cute bolt on hitch as well as other things not offered in the USA. I looked under my little car and found the bolts in there ready for a quick install too. |
