| Author | Message | ||
     Alfau |
A gun crazy country America. A couple of hundred million dollars of spending money. A Federal Firearms License to own automatic and crew served weapons. A qualified contractor to build the vault. Forty years plus of gun collecting. Throw in the presidency of the NRA and you have a veritable museum collection in your own basement The late Charlton Heston's Basement    | ||
| D_adams |
Got this off a FB page.
As much as I didn't like doing it, I had to remove a Bueller from my FB list because of the extreme liberal and anti-gun crap they were spouting. I guess it takes all kinds, but I had to draw the line in the sand. My wife and children can count on me to be there to defend them, I wish someone had been there to stop the nutbag in CT. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Sifo you've been asking for data regarding the perceived data of the danger of more firearms at public/private schools. I did a quick google and came up with 142mil hits on "officer attacked at high school" now in the first page there are several links about the same couple of cases. Firearms can be handled safely. That statement implies their very danger. I'm sure that you're right that there are currently staff members who carry I'd be willing to wager there will be more that do now since this incident in Ct. I don't know of any actual militant attacks on our schools in this country. Which is what the basis for arming teachers in Israel was/is. Not mentally ill/unstable people acting alone. You're comparing apples to watermelons with that analogy. The current security systems are in place generally to prevent kids from being snatched by the wrong parent or other kidnapping cases not to protect against armed intruders, particularly at elementary and middle schools. High schools the security that's in place is to protect the kids and staff from the kids. Again not a determined proficient mentally unstable assailant. Those systems overall are pretty effective not perfect but pretty effective for what they are and why they are. Getting back to the real issue here. The following are my thoughts I posted on FB last night: "We as s nation have failed. We have allowed mental health issues to not be treated. We have allowed mental health issues to be the reason that people are ostracized bullied and beat up. We have not insisted or been willing to pay for the research needed to help those in our families and communities that need it most. Then when something like this happens instead of focusing on the real issues at... hand we instead point fingers blame and politicize the problem. We offer up certain freedoms instead because that's something we can touch feel and say look that is the problem. We are a nation of weaklings. We are cowards unwilling to face the truth that we are creating humans that are broken and hurting. I've seen so many messages here on fb and other social media outlets and the 'news' blaming so many things rather than 'manning up' and tackling the actual problem." I implore each of you with all of your energy to help be a voice to those among us who are in need of help. Take that idea to the hill and demand that instead of a national anti-gun policy and associated expenses that instead the money and energy be used to fix the broken and battered within our communities so that they don't feel the need real or perceived to take such drastic actions to be heard. Naturally if teachers are armed and every single one of those that are armed are perfect with process and procedure then no one will be harmed by an unintentional discharge. Because in my knowledge at least there have been no militant assaults on schools the 'deterrent' argument is thin at the very best. Bear in mind we're talking about mentally unstable/ill individuals that are acting alone or perhaps at most in concert with 1-2 more(columbine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shooti ngs_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Notab le_school_shootings As I read through those without many details mind you what I see are broken/ill minds pushed past the brink and not equipped with the coping skills and tools needed for "normal" life. In my view having an armed staffer wouldn't have been of much benefit in a lot of those cases. Now id every single staffer had been armed sure I could see some of those going differently. To be honest whether in plane view or not if it's known that the staff is armed the school just became very prison like more-so than they already are. Personally I am very glad that it's highly unlikely that the staff will be armed in the way it sounds like is being suggested here. I think it's terribly sad that the state of Texas and I think Mississippi that do have armed staffers, not knowing their particulars I am not passing judgment just noting that to me it's sad they are. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Additionally most LEO's and a good number of Military when facing down the business end of an assailants weapon have a hard time hitting the broad side of a barn. What makes you think that a teacher who's chosen to carry will be any better/more proficient than a trained 'professional'? Even with the 'ricochet resistant' rounds required by the Tx and Ms school districts how much collateral damage is acceptable? Assuming 0% unintentional discharges. How many children, staff, parents and volunteers deaths and injuries are you willing to accept as a part of your suggested solution? 0 is not a real answer. | ||
| Glitch |
Sorry y'all, sometimes my brain is way faster than my typing...  | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
wtf is that? | ||
| Glitch |
Bear arms | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
lol ok not enough coffee yet :-( | ||
| Aesquire |
Mandating teachers carry a gun is not workable. It won't work. The mindset of many if not most of the teachers in any school is not proper to be armed. Allowing the ones who WANT to help protect their flock to be armed, with some thoughtful rules, is a good thing. Sheep/sheepdog/wolf. You can give a sheep a gun, and he'll not use it, learn how, or care to. Sheepdogs will fight back with guns, desks, pencils. Guess which one of those would have saved lives? Wolves will get guns no matter the legal rules. I mentioned above how to do so in the face of a complete civilian gun ban. Brick, cop, attitude. Armed crazy. So while the people on the boob tube ( nearly all leftist sheep ) call out for stupid laws using lies, fake names for things, and the implication that weapons a century old are a new problem, the ignorance of the "new normal" public school educated folk WILL make it quite possible for the dishonest politicians take away your rights. With men armed with the exact same guns they want to ban. Remember, TODAY it's "assault weapons" and "high capacity magazines" and "automatics". ( Not one description that is true ) Tomorrow it's the rest. I read Handgun Control Inc.s book. The tactic is simple. Give an object a scary name. Ban it. Move on to next object.. ( Handgun Control Inc. is now the Brady center to exploit a crippled guy for money ) They are the kind of people who find great joy in using other peoples pain to achieve their illegal goals. Sorta like a certain drive by poster finds great joy in others pain. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
The funny thing to me is that a lot of people are playing right into the hands of the brady types out there. the real issue is being glossed over and another agenda is being pushed. let's not play that game. let's actually fix the root cause of the problem. | ||
| Cowboy |
The problem in America is we keep trying to fix things that is not broke.----My mother and father went to school in the 1920s every one carried then and was never a problem. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Cowboy the wiki links would suggest otherwise. Those are ones that there are records of and I am sure not a complete list. | ||
| Mikef5000 |
You mean the wiki link that states "There are very seldom reports of mass or multiple school shootings during the first three decades of the 20th Century, with the three most violent attacks on schools involving either arson or explosions." | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
yes Mike that one. | ||
| Hootowl |
God Bless Texas http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/stop-school-s hootings-by-letting-teachers-fire-back-say-texas-o fficials/ | ||
| Blake |
While the hand-wringers and blame America scum, those who characterize Americans as "cowards" to try to explain away the existence of evil, while such fools prevaricate, procrastinate and debate ad nauseum, men and women of principled resolve and courage will take measures to confront evil. When the self-loathing cowards come to strip G_d-given liberties from the courageous principled men and women under guise of protecting us all, evil will only expand its reach. Boogiman, reading your screed made me literally sick to my stomach. Wise up. Evil exists. Deal with it. Please for the sake of all that is good, reconsider your perspective on such issues. Americans are not cowards. You are the coward. Take a stand against evil. Don't excuse it or try to explain it. It's no different from cancer or any other disease. Live life according to the rules of rules, love your G_d with all your heart, mind and soul, and treat others as you would be treated. Yes, if you ever see me committing a murderous rampage, please use whatever means necessary to end it. That is how I as a G_d-fearing man wish to be treated. Again, hundreds of young children are killed every year by drunk drivers. Why don't we hear reported continued body counts for that plague on our society? Because the cowards who write the news don't want to offend their friends. Do you drink and drive? At least the children who were murdered in CT had some taste of the wonder and beauty of life on Earth. Not so the 50 MILLION slaughtered babies since evil corrupt and misled men created from whole cloth the right to perpetrate such slaughter. Who are the cowards? By making the death of 26 in CT into some kind of unprecedented tragedy, YOU are the coward. Anyone who refuses to take a stand against the rampant unmitigated evil that has swept this nation is a coward! Why do some fail to value life? Because they've been told that life has no value, it's just another commodity to be disposed of according to the will of another. WISE UP PEOPLE! | ||
| Blake |
So too says Ben Stein... http://spectator.org/archives/2012/12/17/god-help- us | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
late to the thread, my thoughts: its a horrible thing what happened on Friday. For that guy to do what he did, its disgusting. Also disgusting - people blaming video games and gun control laws on this. For those suggesting all teachers should carry a gun and the problem wouldnt have happened - silly talk. You dont know. Yes, people react differently in high stress situations. And just cause you can hit a cardboard/paper target at 7 yards at your local range X times in Y seconds doesnt mean you can do jack crap in this sort of situation. You aint Rambo or any of the like, and this aint the movies/tv. my thoughts go out to the family and friends of the victims. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
mental illness untreated ? pft - check your stats; there are more seriously medicated phsychotopic prescriptions now than any time before - with no end in sight Hell the 'treatment' for criminals is now therapy and medication - courtesy of the HHS and the DOJ (in conjunction with DSHS) And with the new DSM-5 ; you are all one doctor's visit away from being medicated and droned by a monthly script | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Blake - right to arms is not a God given liberty, but a founding fathers one. Come on man, you call yourself American and you dont know that? | ||
| Blake |
http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2012/1 2/18/invincible-ignorance-n1468784/print www.TownHall.com | ||
| Sifo |
Boogiman, first off, thanks for a good response. There is no perfect answer to all of this. I think we all agree on that point. I will address some of your points though. I don't know of any actual militant attacks on our schools in this country. Which is what the basis for arming teachers in Israel was/is. Not mentally ill/unstable people acting alone. You're comparing apples to watermelons with that analogy. No doubt our problems differ from Israel's. While not exactly the same, what Israel is doing has been successful in large part. There are things we can learn from that, even if we don't follow their example to the letter, which has not been proposed in this thread BTW. I think comparing and armed Islamic terrorist wanting to kill a bunch of kids to an armed mentally unstable person wanting to kill a bunch of kids is actually a pretty fair comparison. Feel free to detail where you feel they are substantially different. I think the terrorist might put more planning into it. The main point being though, if you want to curtail deaths, action has to be swift and decisive. That pretty much means someone being armed on the premises. Budget concerns will limit the amount of guards/police you can post at a school. Willing armed teachers are virtually free, or extremely low cost even if you subsidize them. Personally, I would be for an all of the above approach. I also assume physical security systems, some of which were in use in CT, would be looked at and evaluated. The current security systems are in place generally to prevent kids from being snatched by the wrong parent or other kidnapping cases not to protect against armed intruders, particularly at elementary and middle schools. High schools the security that's in place is to protect the kids and staff from the kids. Again not a determined proficient mentally unstable assailant. Those systems overall are pretty effective not perfect but pretty effective for what they are and why they are. Well said. These systems (I know for a fact) are being evaluated and could be subject to change as the districts see fit. "We as s nation have failed. We have allowed mental health issues to not be treated. We have allowed mental health issues to be the reason that people are ostracized bullied and beat up. We have not insisted or been willing to pay for the research needed to help those in our families and communities that need it most. Then when something like this happens instead of focusing on the real issues at... hand we instead point fingers blame and politicize the problem. We offer up certain freedoms instead because that's something we can touch feel and say look that is the problem. We are a nation of weaklings. We are cowards unwilling to face the truth that we are creating humans that are broken and hurting. I've seen so many messages here on fb and other social media outlets and the 'news' blaming so many things rather than 'manning up' and tackling the actual problem." I find that to be very well said. Gun control is an easy political target taking advantage of a tragedy. In an ideal world, we would be able to predict who is likely to snap like this and provide treatment/counseling that would prevent another tragedy. Our world is far from that ideal world, but we should strive to get closer to that. I've seen a fair amount about the problems this shooter had, and frankly some of it scares me. The Piece titles I am Adam Lanza's Mother is one that I found to be very poorly written. What is described there is not Asperger's or Autism. I haven't heard of any other issues this kid suffered from, there may be some. I don't think we will know about that until details of the investigation have been released. Many assumptions seem to have been made on this front, and does a disservice to the actual issue. I really don't have any idea how far or how fast progress can happen on this front. I just happen to have some first hand experience with Asperger's and Autistic kids. I'm far from an expert though. The experts don't know nearly enough. I don't have the link handy, but I did read that while in school there were concerns about the psychology of this kid. Their concern wasn't that he would cause harm though. Their concern was that he would be the victim. We have a long ways to go in this area. Naturally if teachers are armed and every single one of those that are armed are perfect with process and procedure then no one will be harmed by an unintentional discharge. Because in my knowledge at least there have been no militant assaults on schools the 'deterrent' argument is thin at the very best. Bear in mind we're talking about mentally unstable/ill individuals that are acting alone or perhaps at most in concert with 1-2 more(columbine. Again, in my view at least, an armed person killing kids is an armed person killing kids. All that's missing is the political motive. As I read through those without many details mind you what I see are broken/ill minds pushed past the brink and not equipped with the coping skills and tools needed for "normal" life. In my view having an armed staffer wouldn't have been of much benefit in a lot of those cases. Now id every single staffer had been armed sure I could see some of those going differently. To be honest whether in plane view or not if it's known that the staff is armed the school just became very prison like more-so than they already are. Personally I am very glad that it's highly unlikely that the staff will be armed in the way it sounds like is being suggested here. I think it's terribly sad that the state of Texas and I think Mississippi that do have armed staffers, not knowing their particulars I am not passing judgment just noting that to me it's sad they are. It is an issue just how prison like we want to make our schools. It's a balance. Honestly, I can see an attack, just as bad or worse being done with some commonly available chemicals to get past the security door, and a machete, or any number of weapons/farm implements. In my view, it's people who can respond quickly and decisively that make the difference. In this case some teachers did exactly that. Some attempted to rush the shooter, some manged to simply shield a few students. None however, were equipped to stop the attack. Additionally most LEO's and a good number of Military when facing down the business end of an assailants weapon have a hard time hitting the broad side of a barn. What makes you think that a teacher who's chosen to carry will be any better/more proficient than a trained 'professional'? It's almost impossible to predict how an individual will act when thrown into that sort of situation. Many years ago, I knew a LEO who quite the force after having to face off with an armed individual and realized that he didn't have what it took to pull the trigger. He was fortunate in this situation, that the threat of him doing so was enough. There are no simple answers. Even with the 'ricochet resistant' rounds required by the Tx and Ms school districts how much collateral damage is acceptable? Assuming 0% unintentional discharges. How many children, staff, parents and volunteers deaths and injuries are you willing to accept as a part of your suggested solution? 0 is not a real answer. Good question without an exact answer. The obvious flip side of this question, is how many school shooting are acceptable? While "none" is the obvious answer, are we willing to do what necessary to achieve that? The objection to making schools more prison like has been noted and agreed with. There are no easy answers. | ||
| Blake |
>>> right to arms is not a God given liberty, but a founding fathers one. Come on man, you call yourself American and you dont know that? Your ignorance is only matched by your impertinence. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men... So you see young man, you've been misled. Our rights to life and liberty are clearly recognized by our nation's founders as endowed to us by G_d. Our govt is charged only with securing those rights for us, NOT granting them. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Mandating WILL work, it worked for security doors in planes and it works for other rules and it can work for school self defense rules too. Mandate that schools have a set amount of trained personnel who ccw during school hours. (4-8) Whether it be faculty, administrative, janitors or hired security they can choose so the mindset of those who do not want to ccw or be trained don't have to. THATS the kind of laws that need to be changed... or something along those lines... not removing the rights of the innocent to defend themselves. the lives of all the children are in the hands of the school system. The next time this happens and there is a teacher or school that had refused to change their mindset, they might be held accountable. | ||
| Bads1 |
Blake, 600 plus at last nights faculty meeting. Very few would carry according to my wife. Xdigital, Your nuts if taking from a teachers pension or tax would happen. I can tell ya right now 50 nurse instructors would walk on there jobs. Thats right walk. Not strike walk. And they would go back to nursing in hospitals and have jobs rather quickly. I'd bet more then what you'd believe would across the US. BTW... Our schools here already have Police present in every school. Our Colleges have there own armed Campus police and does are tech School's. | ||
| Sifo |
BTW... Our schools here already have Police present in every school. Just wondering what schools exactly you are talking about. Not "our" as in the schools near me. Same with armed campus police on colleges, though they may have a weapons cache in their office, I'm not sure. | ||
| Sifo |
Of course, I'm from near Chicago where guns are not allowed, so there is virtually no gun crime around here. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Sifo, thank you. Blake, please go back and reread when you've had a chance to calm down. Once again I find myself in a position on 'your' board to ask you to refrain from attempting to insult or resorting to name calling. | ||
| Blake |
>>> Also disgusting - people blaming video games and gun control laws on this. The blame lies in excessive time spent acting out violent murderous scenarios in virtual reality at the expense of actual meaningful social interaction with real people. Anyone who fails to recognize the very real psychological effects of that is a fool. Virtually all the worst mass-murders have occurred in gun-free zones. The conclusion is inescapable. Denying lawful adults the right to defend themselves and those around them produces horrendous unintended consequences. Those gun free zones have been instituted by cowards aiming to deny others their G_d-given liberties. These are simply the cold hard facts. What's disgusting is your ignorance and impudence. >>> For those suggesting all teachers should carry a gun and the problem wouldn't have happened - silly talk. You dont know. First, no one is advocating that all teachers should carry a gun. But please do instead of telling others that they "don't know" make the argument that had all the adults in the school been armed, that the same mass-murder would have been attempted let alone occurred. You cannot on account that in all likelihood, the exact opposite is true. YOU don't know. >>> just cause you can hit a cardboard/paper target at 7 yards at your local range X times in Y seconds doesnt mean you can do jack crap in this sort of situation. Nor does it mean you cannot. It sure does indicate that you have a MUCH better chance of defending lives than those who lack any such tools and/or the skills to use them. Muscle memory and training work for the private individual no less effectively than they do for professional security personnel. You apparently didn't read the admonition by a career law enforcement officer that armed citizens are an asset to a community's security. That is a simple observation borne out repeatedly by historical fact. >>> You aint Rambo or any of the like, and this aint the movies/tv. Why would one need to be a "Rambo" or anything of the sort. One need simply be willing and prepared to use deadly force to stop a deadly threat. True, cowards need not apply. (Message edited by Blake on December 18, 2012) | ||
| Sifo |
My pleasure, both the writing and the reading.  |
