| Author | Message | ||
     Rocketsprink |
Is an officer supposed to know who the nutcase is? What happens when 3 or 4 armed citizen happen get involved and no one know who's who and all start shooting at each other? There is no doubt that there is a certain amount of protection provided by a well trained person with a gun. I do doubt that it will stop a nut from doing what this guy did. Do you really think that the thought of an armed teacher would have stopped this guy? No doubt it may have not ended so bad. But Blake, what happens if the person in the video decides to DO the shooting. There is no easy answer. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
I don't see anything that states that a police officer shot an armed teacher by accident Glitch. So when did this happen before? | ||
| Mikef5000 |
Is an officer supposed to know who the nutcase is? What happens when 3 or 4 armed citizen happen get involved and no one know who's who and all start shooting at each other? There is no doubt that there is a certain amount of protection provided by a well trained person with a gun. I do doubt that it will stop a nut from doing what this guy did. Do you really think that the thought of an armed teacher would have stopped this guy? No doubt it may have not ended so bad. But Blake, what happens if the person in the video decides to DO the shooting. Wowzer, I disagree with everything in your line of thinking, except that there is no easy answer. Common sense and proper training must dictate who the nutcase is both to the officer responding, and the armed civilians involved. If they haven't the common sense, then they shouldn't be armed. If there is a single armed nutcase running into a school with a gun, why would you assume trained and armed civilians would turn it into an all out war scene? Has this ever happened before to validate your point? The nutcase would unload a clip while the citizens figured out what in the hell was going on, and then he would be brought down. The fact that the perp could be brought down quickly, is precisely what would keep the cops from running in and shooting a teacher with a gun. The situation could be dealt nearly instantly, long before the cops and media arrive. Could bystanders be hit as well? Absolutely. That's terrible, but it happens, with the military, police, etc. But what are the chances the outcome would be worse than if they simply let the nutcase walk through the school shooting until he decided to off himself? Of course armed teachers/staff will not stop 100% of the nuts from doing this... nothing will... but the mere thought that people will be shooting back will stop many of these situations long before they materialize. Why do you think they kill themselves before the cops get there? They don't want to be shot/hurt/killed (by others); ••••••• cowards. And finally, we're pretending that the trained shooter was working in the school, and went crazy. The short answer, in a perfect world of trained and armed civilians, they would be brought down quickly, same as if an untrained civilian went on a rampage. Common sense would dictate that someone well trained would get a few more hits in, but I still would think they would cause less damage than having no one there to fight back, and just waiting for the situation to resolve itself. Like you said, there is no easy answer. You threw up hypotheticals I disagree with, I'm sure I threw up hypotheticals you disagree with. Every single situation is different, and none can be planned for in advance. One factor that has been the same among all recent school/theater/mall shootings, is that no one shot back. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
By the time the cops show up, there is little to do but bring a mop. Were I a teachers, I'd like a fighting chance to defend myself and the children in my care until the police show up. Eventually. | ||
| Hootowl |
Yep. It's over in seconds. Long before the police show up. The teacher would have put his or her gun away already. No confusion. | ||
| D_adams |
And THIS is my argument for concealed carry in malls/schools/etc. Yeah, one guy CAN make a difference. | ||
| Mikef5000 |
The latest information I read said the principal was shot and killed while lunging at the shooter attempting to overtake him. I ask you, how do you think that situation would have played out had the principal been carrying a firearm, and been trained to use it? | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/dec/14/de m-lawmaker-get-gun-control-obama-must-exploit-sh/ Mr. Nadler was asked whether the Newtown tragedy could be the turning point in many Democrats’ longstanding struggle to enact stronger gun laws. It IS a longstanding struggle. The D's have been antigun since the Emancipation Proclamation. It's really annoying to have the former slaves shoot back when you're burning a cross on their lawn. That is the true reason and origin of gun control laws in the US since the 1800's. In a very real sense, it still is. Do I want teachers to be armed? depends. Do armed citizens reduce crime? Yes. Does it always help? No. Nothing always anything. Are there problems with the sheepdogs of society protecting the flock? Always. Sheep fear the sheepdog. With the Sheepdog's capacity for violence the Sheep think they are wolves. Sheep are really stupid. They don't have to be smart, that's why we have sheepdogs. | ||
| Sifo |
I ask you, how do you think that situation would have played out had the principal been carrying a firearm, and been trained to use it? Impossible to say... Other than it couldn't have turned out any worse. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://connecticut.cbslocal.com/2012/12/15/as-shoo ting-story-unfolds-media-struggle-with-facts/ Short form. They got it wrong. Because they had to fill time. Goth/loner/genius/gamer, blah blah blah... heck they blamed the wrong brother. A clearer picture of the killer will emerge over time, while important facts get overlooked, because they are not new news. A few things stand out. The people that "go off" and make the grand gesture used to just kill themselves.. to "show them". Now increasingly, they go for the fame of killing others. Psychiatric drugs? The 24 hour news cycle that will make them famous? I have no clue what the motivation really is, but I do remember being angry and outcast as a teen. I didn't slaughter the high school. Just lucky I guess. Buffy the Vampire Slayer got so much closer to reality than any other "teen" show in that it showed that the real monsters in the world are the other students. The Columbine shooters were "goth/gamer/picked on" kids too. The Goth kids are not going to get one bit less picked on by the cruel children who raise their own status in the tribe by cutting others down. No "zero tolerance" rule will fix that. No utopian solution exists IMHO, since this is basic tribal thought patterns going back...forever. I certainly don't have a solution. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The best solution to a bully is to beat their ass. | ||
| 01x1buell |
+ 1000 to FT BSTRD. I have so much to say on this topic, BUT i have been told to keep my mouth shut about these sort of things . It is a horrible thing that happened to those people, and i wish i could say more. | ||
| Aesquire |
Agreed, all sympathy to the closely affected families and town. Some observations. http://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmanor/?p=11073 | ||
| Sifo |
Meanwhile, it's just a Friday night in Chicago... http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ chi-shootings-violence-december-14-december-15-201 21214,0,912168.story That's barely newsworthy though. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
How many people here on Badweb actually likes to go hunting? Have you ever taken a gun like the ones the shooter used or even seen any hunter out in the woods with a gun like that before? | ||
| Alfau |
enact stronger gun laws or everyone buy a bigger gun | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
How many people here on Badweb actually likes to go hunting? Have you ever taken a gun like the ones the shooter used or even seen any hunter out in the woods with a gun like that before? What 9MM handguns? I don't really know anyone who would take those hunting. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"Realizing that their city would see a record high number of fatalities from gun violence in 2012, Chicago residents have pooled resources to construct the Annual Death Clock." "10 shot, including 4 teens, Friday afternoon and night._Chicago Tribune" Seems the death toll in a single "gun controlled" city in the US continues to exceed the number of troop deaths in two wars for the past TEN years. So, do "gun control" advocates want more of the same? G | ||
| Pwnzor |
I wouldn't take a 9mm hunting. You can, however, hunt quite handily with an AR15... for a sidearm I would go with a .357. I have used an SKS for hunting, I have a 3-round magazine specifically for that purpose. Doesn't matter what a gun looks like. | ||
| Aesquire |
"Stronger gun laws"? The NRA supports stronger gun laws, including mandatory time for people who use guns to commit crime. Very unpopular with statists who insist that judges need to be able to make judgments about the punishment. Now I can understand that, especially from people that feel above the law and want a loophole to escape punishment. But "stronger"? When it is illegal to have a gun, at all, where he had a gun, illegal to shoot people ( in other than self defense, and that has NOTHING to do with this, nor to "castle laws" or "right ot carry" ) Illegal to even be in the school parking lot with a firearm, WHAT NEEDS TO BE STRONGER? Just like Columbine, and every armed robbery on the planet, the perpetrator is breaking multiple gun laws. More laws won't change the fact that the laws that already exist are being broken. Won't stop ANY crime from happening, and wont do one damn thing.....Except remove the rights of honest law abiding citizens and let politicians say they are doing a good job, when they are not. You want to ban all guns? Ban all guns like X? ( 9mm pistols? So called "assault rifles"? ( which are NOT assault rifles ) That argument is bogus. The make, model and kind of gun has nothing to do with a crazed, angry Goth kid killing his MOTHER and all that she loves. All you get are HIGHER death rates MORE crime MORE murders. Proven, verifiable fact. Chicago is a freaking war zone and you practically can't own a gun there. Yet somehow....... Hunting has nothing to do with guns. It's the Right to bear arms against those who would murder you, steal your stuff, rape your daughters. ( the reduction in varmints, and collection of high quality lean meat to feed the family is a bonus, a right, and needful to control the populations of the critters... Remember, we killed the wolves years ago ) With millions of guns made in every country capable of carving steel, ( and AK clones made from scrap metal in tiny shops from Afghanistan to Congo ) if all gun manufacture was stopped today, all that would happen is the price would rise, and more people shot. Minorities and the Poor hit hardest, of course. And Rosie Odonnell would still have a heavily armed private bodyguard. The rich would still have armed minions. The criminals would still have guns. Stronger? Restrict gun ownership for people on psychocontrol drugs? If "going off your meds" is going to make you suicidal or homicidal, we might consider restricting gun ownership. And if it is illegal for a person to posses, buy, or touch guns, he'll still get them when he wants them bad enough. Here's a hypothetical... Let's say Bob, a depressive on Prozac, he works, has family, friends, is doing ok when his biochemistry shifts. maybe he's out of script, maybe he had grapefruit, maybe he develops a resistance to the meds. He decides to end it all, and he's not going alone. But. He lives in NYC and can't get a gun at a store, and isn't willing to go to a "crappier" 'hood and risk getting ripped off by the street drug dealers. So he picks up a brick, goes to the local donut shop, and brains the last cop out of the shop as he gets in his cruiser. Now Bob has a pistol, a shotgun, a carbine, a lot of ammo, and the most dangerous weapon of all, a multi ton battering ram with flashing lights. Heck if he gets to work or the elementary school at the right time, he can plow though dozens before the cruiser won't move any more, and then it's blaze of glory time........... Not even a total ban on all guns in the hands of the Subjects of The State will prevent that. | ||
| Fast1075 |
9mm hunting? While I no longer hunt, when I did, it was usually for hogs. I wouldn't have DREAMED of going without a sidearm for backup. I didn't take a 9mm. I took a .45, and had to use it on occasion. | ||
| Glitch |
I don't see anything that states that a police officer shot an armed teacher by accident Glitch. That's my point. | ||
| Aesquire |
I DO know a guy who hunts with a 9mm Sig handgun. Coyotes and Groundhogs. FMJ ammo to minimize pelt damage, and a good sense of range and holdover. I've practiced with him at the range and he shoots at targets from 10 to 100 yards, switching ranges between shots. He assures me the 9mmx19 is good for feral dogs as well, having had experience hunting in areas with feral dog problems. The 9mm ( 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Nato... all same ) is over a hundred and ten years old and was the standard service sidearm in Europe since WW1. Adopted as US standard issue in the 1980's. I consider it marginal on deer. Modern defensive ammo designed to expand may have limited penetration and be a bad idea. ( wounding without killing quickly ) FMJ ammo will penetrate enough, but leave a small hole that, again, may not be humane. A .357 magnum will do the job properly on deer, though a 10mm, .41 magnum or .44 magnum or better is a better choice on large eastern white tails. IMHO. 9mmx19 is very popular for defensive use, as a target competition round, and for plinking due to it's high volume production/lower cost. | ||
| Fb1 |
Mother of VA Tech Victim Speaks Out in Support of Campus Carry Posted on April 17, 2012 by John Pierce
Source: http://monachuslex.com/?p=514 *VCDL: Virginia Citizens Defense League, http://www.vcdl.org | ||
| Kenm123t |
The AR platform is the fastest growing hunting gun it is availible ..204 Ruger to .50bmg Reason it works well and few want to scratch up wood stocks and let blue steel get rusty after days in the field. The other factor is the ease of adding scopes stocks in other words build it the way you want it without a trip to the Gunsmith and months of waiting | ||
| Cowboy |
I carried a 357/38 revolver for yrs on the ranch it was very efective on a lot of varmits--hogs-coyotes wild dogs - snakes juSt abou any thing in my neck of ths. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Based on the latest reports, the AR15 was not used in this incident. It was present in the car, but was not used. There were 5 weapons owned by the shooter's mother. Two 9MM handguns (which were used in the shooting), an AR15 (which was left in the car), another rifle and shotgun (recovered at the home). Chances are high that the AR15 was semi-auto like most of them sold in the US. | ||
| Sifo |
Have you ever taken a gun like the ones the shooter used or even seen any hunter out in the woods with a gun like that before? I have a feeling this question is the product of not understanding guns, and misleading information that has been put out by news agencies on this shooting. The guns the shooter actually did use, 9mm hand guns, are not typical hunting guns. I have a couple I target shoot with at the range regularly though. They also stand by as self defense guns in my home. Unfortunately, this criminal event, does demonstrate their effectiveness as a defensive weapon. For the most part there is no difference in a defensive/offensive weapon; It's all about the end user. Now the media has widely reported that he had a .223 semiautomatic rifle. Read the tactical guns thread if you want to learn about these. It seems the shooter left this in the trunk, and it was never used in the shooting. This will most certainly be the demonized weapon from this shooting though. I've already seen it happening. These do make for good hunting weapons. When I move from Illinois, which I have plans of doing, I may very well go back to hunting, and I am actually considering this as an option for exactly that purpose. I hope this answer sheds some light on both your question and what is likely bad information being pushed by some media folks with an anti-gun agenda. | ||
| Gregtonn |
The "Hunting" argument is often used, but is a complete fallacy. Where is there any reference to hunting in these few simple words? "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." The hunting argument completely ignores the highlighted words. G | ||
| Sifo |
 Any questions? |
